Genuinely Pumped for Round 1

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Rhino a forwards job is FAR EASIER than a backmans. But I will concede that forwards are usually more creative players. Backman have the ever present connumdrum of deciding when and whether to defend or attack. Forwards usually only have to decide to defend and we know they don't all do that, and most that do don't do it very well!!

I think you wrong Toad. But I am talking about the skill levels required to play the respective roles. And you require greater skill to play up forward than you do when you are back for the following simple reasons:

1. You have to convert the opportunities (both good and bad) that are provided by teammates up the ground with the phyiscial pressure of your direct opponent and other opponents flooding back.

2. Secondly when you attack and hopefully get the ball 9 times out of 10 you have your back to the goals and need to either dish off or engineer the play to get yourself at least partially facing the goal.

3. You need to convert the possession either as a goal or to someone else who is in a better possession often under the same pressure as in one.

4. If you dont have the ball ensure that you retain or retard the exit of the pill from your forward line.

A backman's primary job is to defend and to ensure he beats his direct opponent. Achieving that he also needs to be able to initiate counterattacks where the opposition turns over the pill in their F50.

There is no conundrium for backman. If your team does not have the ball.....he defends. (Cant attack when you dont have it can you?) and when your side have the ball you might be considering involvement in the counterattack up to the centreline.

Hardly rocket science is it.

Even simpler for a limited footballer like Miller......nullify your opponent. That's where Miller best chances lie.

I have always seen Miller as a Full Forward played out of position.

His hard leading, ususally good contested marking and appetitie for the physical stuff are all the right attributes for a bash and crash ff in the mould of Neita.

Yes, he will never be in the same class as Neita, but he will contest, win enough of his own ball, create enough opportunities for crumbers and provide enough assists to hold down the position regardless of how many goals he kicks himself.

That said I doubt we will see him get a chance there unless (touch wood) Neita goes down with a long term injury.

He is an uncertain and flaky kick. He has little scope for contested marking. Is invisible in the F50 (and chases stats up on the wing). Is lousy below his knees and his appetite for the physical stuff has landed him silly suspensions without making discernible phyisical presence in the F50.

Not a FF's bootlace.

I'd put Juice in front of him for that role...even now!

[occo 2]

B: WHELAN, CARROLL, HOLLAND

HB: BROWN, RIVERS, BELL

C: JOHNSTONE, MCLEAN, GREEN

HF: DAVEY, MILLER, PICKETT

F: ROBERTSON, NEITZ, YZE

FOLL: WHITE, BRUCE, MCDONALD

IC: BATE, JONES, C.JOHNSON, JAMAR

EMERG: WARD, MOLONEY, BUCKLEY

Very close but i recon

B: Whelan, Carroll, Holland

HB: Bartram, Rivers, Bell

C: Johnstone, Mclean, Bate

HF: Robertson, Dunn, Pickett

F: Davey, Neitz, Green

Foll: White, Bruce, McDonald

IC: Jones, C.Johnson, Jamar, Sylvia

Emer: Moloney (in team if 100% - remove sylvia), buckley, Brown

As said very similar

Green - Plays his best forward and moved to midfield half way through game

Batram - Cant have Brown but not bartram.

Dunn- No miller! Trade bait

[dees_rule_4eva 22]

In my opinion, the Dunn vs Miller argument has one defining factor.

When Dunn plays, you know that the team is going to get a guy who is an 80% chance of kicking at least one, if not two goals. You also know he is going to present well, and do the hard things as best he can. When Miller plays, you get no goals, and no presentation (especially if a decent defender is on him). It's a no brainer.

Dunn IN

Miller OUT

[Pepe Dee Pew 0]

Lets reserve judgment on Miller. He played last year with OP which is debilitating if you cover a bit of ground like Miller. Give him a while to settle in again this season.

Also lets not expect to much from Buckley. Pencil him in for a 2008 or 2009 regular. He looked good but its a pre season game way below full pace.

[Freak 100]

Year in, year out i get dissapointed by our recruiting. I saw Lindsay Thomas play in the u18 carnival and I knew straight away that he was going to be something special. I'm not sure why recruiters cant see that?..maybe there was some factor that scared us away from him..but why would u not select him after what happened with Davey. His talent is just as obvious.

As for Miller, he was better when he was playing in the u18 than he is now.

[occo 2]

Lets reserve judgment on Miller. He played last year with OP which is debilitating if you cover a bit of ground like Miller. Give him a while to settle in again this season.

Also lets not expect to much from Buckley. Pencil him in for a 2008 or 2009 regular. He looked good but its a pre season game way below full pace.

Miller with OP is the same as Miller with no OP. When he had no OP (and i dont believe that he ever did) he was as bad as last year. TRADE BAIT. We need to learn from the White insodent - that is white has been used too much, now we have Jamar and Johnson who in my opinion are very average. If we used white 50% of the time in last 2 seasons then they would be somewhat better. Miller is the same. Why play someone who is sticking. Dunn will be a better play SHORT AND LONG time if we used his skills NOW!

[Jaded No More 67,643]

Miller with OP is the same as Miller with no OP. When he had no OP (and i dont believe that he ever did)

Thanks doctor, but I'll believe people who are actually in the know, over you.

Freak, were you disappointed by recruiting of McLean or Davey or Bate over the last few years?

How about your precious Colin Sylvia?

It's so easy to pass judgement after one pre-season game. Remember Andrew Walker's debut game? ...Well I'm still waiting for the kid to hit a target.

How about we reserve our highly-sought after judgement to say 2008/2009 when we can start having a real discussion on the merits of our recruiting.

[beelzebub 23,198]

ahh didnt take long did it..

the thorny Miller debate..

all those for line up on the Left....all those against ....on the Right

people...we are never going to see settlement on this are we really ??

A player that promised so much, effectively has delivered little. And no matter which side of the fence you sit on thats the essential truth of the matter. The reasons why, almost matter not..

Footy isnt a charity, you have to have merit and represent some form of effectiveness to be considered part of the line up. You have to add to the team , not be carried by it. In its simplicity the forwards add to the scoreboard, the backs stop the other side doing same. Can Miller perform either job well ?? Lets forget all the reason, excuses...extenuating circumstances, postion of the moon and state of the weather and just look at it quietly and simply. What does he do for the team?

For mine...not a lot.

Miller time ?? me thinks the beer's gone flat!!

[CarnTheDees 52]

Miller's had more than enough chances to prove he can cut it in the big time and he's come up short with a few exceptions. Can't fault his attitude but his skills betray his background. If he'd grown up in Springvale it might have been different.

Put Dunny at CHF for the first six weeks, Miller at Sandy and then take a raincheck. Dunny needs to get experience week in week out and get used to the pressure of AFL. Playing him now and then isn't helping his development or the teams for that matter.

Agree with everything said above.

[Red_&_Blue_Forever 0]

For me Dunn is younger and as more potential than Miller. Miler has had many opportunities to prove himself and has failed to do so on a consistent basis. For me, the starting lineup for Round 1, 2007 would be:

B: Whelan, Carroll, Frawley

HB: Bell, Rivers, CJ

C: Johnstone, McLean, Bate

HF: Green, Dunn, Pickett

F: Robertson, Neitz, Davey

R: White, Bruce, McDonald

I: Jones, Sylvia, Moloney, Jamar

Note: Bartram would be included in round 1 if he was not injured. Sylvia/Moloney would probably be dropped, although I believe Jamar is the worst player in the team and would drop him except for the need of a backup ruckman.

The Backline

I think this back 6 could form the nucleus for the melbourne backline for the next 3-5 years. Whelan can take the opposition's best small forward and nullify his game completely. Carroll can take the opposition's main forward for the moment with the view of Frawley taking the main forwrd in the future. Frawley stands at 193cm and 80kg. He definately needs to bulk up but his size is perfect to take the oppostion's BIG, POWERFUL forward in the future. IMO, Holland/Warnock are too slow and their disposal is too poor to make it in today's afl game where speed and disposal are almost musts. I say we blood Frawley this year and let him get used to the pace of the game against the opposition's 3rd and sometimes 4th best forward. Rivers/Bell can rotate who takes the opposition's 2nd best forward depending on size and speed etc. CJ is then the main defensive rebounder with his class, poise and disposal he has the potential to be one of the best flankers in the game for years to come. I think the defence has excellent disposal and is perfect for rebounding and setting up attack, whilst at the same time has great defensive attributes and would be able to contain the opposition's forwards. By letting these 6 play together, we only increase their understading of each other and this can only benefit thei performance.

The Midfield

The midfield has the perfect balance of skill, toughness and taggers that the midfield needs to be able to shut down the opposition, but at the same time have the ability to attack. The only thing possibly missing is speed, but I think with bartram, bate, davey, bell we have enough to get by with.

The Forwards

Neitz will again be the focal point and it will be his job to bag a couple of goals per game and make a PHYSICAL presence. Robbo will the second option and he normally has the ability to beat his direct opponent. I think Green should move forward permanently and only move into midfield if the guys are tired or if we need to try something new. He has the disposal and smarts to beat his opponent and i think he is quick enough on the lead to be a dangerous forward. Davey and Pickett provide the crumbing/speed and defensive pressure, Whilst Byron also brings toughness to the team and will be able to bully his opponents and scare them WITHIN the rules. He is no use to us in the stands. Dunn is still young but it is time for him to step up and show that with his footy smarts he can be a star CHF in the future once he builds up a bigger body.

Interchange

The bench is made up of midfielders and the back-up ruckman, Jamar. The game is fast paced and midfield rotation is necessary to keep players at peak performance. I also believe we need a back-up ruckman in the team to relieve white or in case he gets injured. Unfortunately, our next best ruckman is Jamar who try as he might can not get a touch and is probably not good enough for afl level. Unless, he can improve greatly i would look at giving PJ a game (dont think he is really a ruckman) or even blooding Neaves (i heard he was pretty good for sandy last year). All in all, I think the team is looking good for the year and top 4 and beyond is definately a possibility.

Any comments are welcome... Dees for Premiers 2007

[Jaded No More 67,643]

B: Whelan, Carroll, Frawley

HB: Bell, Rivers, CJ

Any comments are welcome... Dees for Premiers 2007

Very nicely done!

I love your backline, but I'd swap CJ with one of Bartram/Green/Bruce/Holland or Miller (or even Sylvia) depending on the opposition.

Sunday night's match proved that CJ is an attacking player, and is best utilised on the wing or forward flank.

[Red_&_Blue_Forever 0]

I'd swap CJ with one of Bartram/Green/Bruce/Holland or Miller (or even Sylvia) depending on the opposition.

Sunday night's match proved that CJ is an attacking player, and is best utilised on the wing or forward flank.

Agreed, CJ is a great attakcing player, that why I would have him at half back because he is the perfect rebounder, similar to the likes of Hodge

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,360]

B: Whelan, Carroll, Frawley

Interesting that you have Frawley in the best 22, but I don't disagree.

Watched the replay last night and I was far more impressed with his performance than watching it live. He's a no nonsence footballer- attacks the ball hard, hard to tackle and kicks the ball long just at the right time. Although his kicking technique is non-conventional, he didn't miss a target on the night. If he improves/sustains his performances during the next 3 trial games, he is not without a chance of a round 1 gig. Love to see players debut on opening round...like Bartram last year.

BTW Green was our best player on the night. Didn't realise how good a game he had, his 2 goals were first class, is a great mark for his size, appears to have his lethal left foot back and I have a gut feeling that 2007 will be his best year yet. My early (outrageous) tip for All Australian.

*Sorry Grenny for the pressure*

[Rampaging Demons 1]

Agree with you BBP.... Brad Green kicked the ball better last evening for goal then he did last year.. he is a magnificent kick and is so damaging with ball in his hand.... He cops his criticism but last year could well be a defining year for him - played a tagging role at times, half back at others and learnt possibly more in one year than he had to date.

The Miller debate will rage for the season... he presents hard and demands the football - this is all done through the wing/centre half forward.. he creates plenty of space behind him, which is why neitz can lead straight out too... The problem with this is that Miller's kicking - short passing or for goal - are not good enough.. he needs to use the handball, etc. Perhaps the new game style will help him??? I like him and always have but what he needs to do is exert his presence on a game more - kick a couple of goals, take some contested marks, make the opposition player hurt within the rules and lead!! He will never tear a game by the... but what he can do is provide some presence!!

We have a power forward and inspirational leader in David Neitz and he has shown that when the ball is put lace up onto his t!t, that he will mark it (okay, drops a couple) and that more often than not he will put it between the sticks... he will give us 50 - 60 a year as a minimum!!

[demonfanjezza 1]

A player that promised so much, effectively has delivered little. And no matter which side of the fence you sit on thats the essential truth of the matter. The reasons why, almost matter not..

Footy isnt a charity, you have to have merit and represent some form of effectiveness to be considered part of the line up. You have to add to the team , not be carried by it. In its simplicity the forwards add to the scoreboard, the backs stop the other side doing same. Can Miller perform either job well ?? Lets forget all the reason, excuses...extenuating circumstances, postion of the moon and state of the weather and just look at it quietly and simply. What does he do for the team?

For mine...not a lot.

Miller time ?? me thinks the beer's gone flat!!

Great post, agree with what you said

Miller has had his time, now it is gooone

[Freak 100]

I find the phrase 'the Miller debate' a little disturbing as in a debate there is always reasons 'for' and 'against' the subject. In this case, there is absolutely no argument 'for' miller.

[Jaded No More 67,643]

I find the phrase 'the Miller debate' a little disturbing as in a debate there is always reasons 'for' and 'against' the subject. In this case, there is absolutely no argument 'for' miller.

FFS, give it a rest already!

Season hasn't even started, so how about we ban pointless bagging of players until we play at least one game.

[since57 0]

how long did we wait for travis to come good? he always showed flashes, but the last 2 years he has paid dividends.

maybe they feel the same way about miller.

for the record, i,m for dunny

cant wait for round 1

[CARN THE DEES! 14]

Bollocks. A backman's first job is to stop a forward. Its that simple. I am talking about Miller being serviceable not good.

Brad Miller has had 90 games and this is his sixth year of football so how much more experience does he need to do the basics?

What is a "true CHF" or "real CHF" in today's football? Its a lot different to what it was 5 years ago. Miller and Dunn are different types of players and I dont think you can play one beside the other with our game plan.

If it's going to take you until 2009 to work out that Miller cant play CHF, what sort of valuable cherry will other clubs toss up to gain such a catch?

Of course it is but a good backmen can make forwards play to there reactions while shuting a forward.

In Millars 90 games u have to ask urself: how many of those were consistant?

how many many were backline and how many were forward?

how many were consistantly forward?

how many were consistantly back?

how many of those were developing games?

Millar has been thrown all round the place never really givin a consistant role this would have really slowed down his devolpment process.

I never said play millar and dunn in the same team i said play millar five or so games then play a different set of five games for dunn and evalute the process of how they played. If u played millar and dunn in the same side the forward line would be massivly overcrowded.

By 2009 i meant that at this time Dunn would have fully devolped as our CHF and millar would find his spot in the reserves. This would be the end process when millar is traded to some time needing tall forwards.

I am not prefering Millar to Dunn i am just saying instead of bashing him give him a go see how it pans out and if he is [censored] then scrap him but only do so on Dunns performace. Millars spot is depending on his comprasion to how well Dunn plays. Which right now he is losing.

[Freak 100]

look at that last paragraph. u've missed the point. what many people are saying is that Miller has already had more than enough time to show if he has any talent..and he has failed to do so. Of course if u play enough games, you will eventually play 1 good game.

[CHAMP 347]

I never said play millar and dunn in the same team i said play millar five or so games then play a different set of five games for dunn and evalute the process of how they played. If u played millar and dunn in the same side the forward line would be massivly overcrowded.

/quote]

How about we use the set of first 11 games played:

Miller 26 kicks 28 handballs 19 marks 4 tackles 0 goals 0 behinds.

Dunn 70 kicks 33 handballs 42 marks 13 tackles 13 goals 10 behinds.

Although Miller played back in many of these games there is really no comparison. There's no argument that Miller has not been the answer at CHF (save for a handful of games) whereas Dunn should be seen as the current best solution.

[Madness 44]

I'm pretty much on the Dunn wagon, but the only problem I have with him is that he tends to go missing sometimes, but I guess that'll improve with experience.