The sad thing is, this hits the supporters harder than the players IMO. We've been around well before the current group, and will be around long after them.

The Giants found an identity this year and have become a real footy club after 8 years. We've not got close to that in a long long time.

1 minute ago, Macca said:

See my post above for my explanation

By the way,  a starting 22 player can be C+ only.  In fact,  we were playing up to 8 C grade quality players (or worse) for the greater part of this season.

In more simplistic terms you replace 6 very average players with 6 others that are better players.  Ranging from A grade down to B- (or C+) Adding an A grader is probably the big ask but we live in hope.

If you're thinking I'm meaning adding 6 A grade players you are jumping to the wrong conclusion. 

If we recruit as we've so often done in the past then I wouldn't be expecting a great return.  But Goodwin is now coaching for his own survival so I expect him to swing the changes (with the help of the recruiting team)

We'll find out soon enough.

 

That we will.

11 minutes ago, old dee said:

That we will.

I'm not clinging on to much out of the 2018 season (apart from the 2 enjoyable finals wins)

We've got to start afresh.  We need a much better game plan with better coaching and we're way short on the talent required to be a true contender. 

And we need to fast-track that improvement.  Free agency needs to be embraced and we need to trade for ready-to-go talent.  We can still go to the draft of course but it doesn't have to necessarily be the first port of call. 

 

Edited September 27, 20195 yr by Macca

We have never had a list good enough to be a true contender ... but we've periodically been quite good or very good.  Unless one is lucky enough to have seen the Smith years.

And greatness is directly linked to talent.  Real talent.  Jordie McKenzie and hundreds of others probably all had great attitude but could they "Play"?

The answer is no.  Not to A grade or B+ levels anyway.  And Jordie did his absolute best then some.  Kudos to the bloke I say.

Where as GWS have got an abundance of talent ... add in great Admin & great coaching and they should be able to win big

We on the other hand are miles off. 

7 hours ago, deebug said:

Should put this up on the wall, for the whole of next year, in the change rooms as the boys run out.

If John Northey was still there he'd have hit on Mark Knight for the original, had it laminated and installed in the change rooms for the entire pre-season, and told the players about it every week. Corny tricks but some times they work.

1 hour ago, pitmaster said:

If John Northey was still there he'd have hit on Mark Knight for the original, had it laminated and installed in the change rooms for the entire pre-season, and told the players about it every week. Corny tricks but some times they work.

The good old days. 

Should bring the great back to the club

6 hours ago, Macca said:

My mind could be changed though if we can add 6 starting 22 players including 2 or 3 of those 6 to be added to the best 12.  It's a decent ask but we're in quite a reasonable trading position.

As always,  the off-season recruiting is all important.  X amount of good players = X amount of wins.

Well then you should be happy already, without even recruiting we can add:

Tmac

Weid

Vdb

May

Hannan

J smith

Possibly KK

From the team playing in the back half of the season and a different but just as big list from the first half.

Looks like you can add Langdon and Tomlinson to that along with either our 2/3 pick or the suite of picks we get if we split it in trade with GWS. 

I am personally in the Carey camp. When nearly half the list had surgeries in the already shortened preseason and got bugger all preparation for a season with rule changes that required significant structural changes things were always going to be tough. Wins wise it turned out worse than I thought but we were still a long way from the Melbourne teams of the past 10 years. There is no team that can survive the lack of preparation and huge injury list we carried this season. We could barely field a Casey team some weeks. 

Some so called supporters on this site will turn on their own with the speed and ferocity of a feral animal. We have plenty of talent on this list, champion data rated us the number one team at the beginning of the year. We under performed big time but that talent hasn't just vanished. We can, and I would argue will, bounce back next year.

1 minute ago, FlashInThePan said:

Well then you should be happy already, without even recruiting we can add:

Tmac

Weid

Vdb

May

Hannan

J smith

Possibly KK

From the team playing in the back half of the season and a different but just as big list from the first half.

Looks like you can add Langdon and Tomlinson to that along with either our 2/3 pick or the suite of picks we get if we split it in trade with GWS. 

I am personally in the Carey camp. When nearly half the list had surgeries in the already shortened preseason and got bugger all preparation for a season with rule changes that required significant structural changes things were always going to be tough. Wins wise it turned out worse than I thought but we were still a long way from the Melbourne teams of the past 10 years. There is no team that can survive the lack of preparation and huge injury list we carried this season. We could barely field a Casey team some weeks. 

Some so called supporters on this site will turn on their own with the speed and ferocity of a feral animal. We have plenty of talent on this list, champion data rated us the number one team at the beginning of the year. We under performed big time but that talent hasn't just vanished. We can, and I would argue will, bounce back next year.

Hope you're right but I don't rate Weideman,  T-Mac is overrated,  VDB is constantly injured as is Smith,  Hannan is an average footballer and KK has done nothing. 

May can play but has had injury concerns as well and needs to do a proper pre-season.

I'd revamp the list as I believe our list is overrated anyway.  Couldn't care less what Champion data says.  My own eyes tells me we're not much chop.  5 & 17 is almost self-explanatory.

As previously stated,  2018 is now not a template for me at all.  Aberration year,  we got found out and we need a change in personnel both with the playing list and in the coaching area (apart from Goodwin) The sport moves along at a rapid rate and we're now playing catch-up

The latter (coaching area) is already happening whilst the former (list adjustments) is about to happen.  Areas of our football such as pace,  decision making and disposal skills are not AFL standard.

Despite all that we can still win 9-11 games next season but we'll need to get a whole lot better in a number of areas.  Which is quite possible.

It's called critical analysis.  The measurement I much prefer.  But rather than single out any one individual,  I'd rather look at everything all at once.

You don't have to agree.  In fact,  it's much easier to just agree to disagree.  It's not like any of our opinions matter anyway.  The club will do what it sees fit.  We are mere onlookers.

11 minutes ago, Macca said:

Hope you're right but I don't rate Weideman,  T-Mac is overrated,  VDB is constantly injured as is Smith,  Hannan is an average footballer and KK has done nothing. 

May can play but has had injury concerns as well and needs to do a proper pre-season.

I'd revamp the list as I believe our list is overrated anyway.  Couldn't care less what Champion data says.  My own eyes tells me we're not much chop.  5 & 17 is almost self-explanatory.

As previously stated,  2018 is now not a template for me at all.  Aberration year,  we got found out and we need a change in personnel both with the playing list and in the coaching area (apart from Goodwin) The sport moves along at a rapid rate and we're now playing catch-up

The latter (coaching area) is already happening whilst the former (list adjustments) is about to happen.  Areas of our football such as pace,  decision making and disposal skills are not AFL standard.

Despite all that we can still win 9-11 games next season but we'll need to get a whole lot better in a number of areas.  Which is quite possible.

It's called critical analysis.  The measurement I much prefer.  But rather than single out any one individual,  I'd rather look at everything all at once.

You don't have to agree.  In fact,  it's much easier to just agree to disagree.  It's not like any of our opinions matter anyway.  The club will do what it sees fit.  We are mere onlookers.

You are right, if it is just going to be about opinion and 'your own eyes' then we're done. People often don't like statistics, curiously they often don't support our opinions and the narrative we are trying to drive. It is much easier to drive a narrative out of pure opinion and gut feel. Interestingly, when looking at historical events and trends, a surprisingly large part of the scientific community supports strong statistical data as the way to do effective analysis, go figure.

15 minutes ago, FlashInThePan said:

You are right, if it is just going to be about opinion and 'your own eyes' then we're done. People often don't like statistics, curiously they often don't support our opinions and the narrative we are trying to drive. It is much easier to drive a narrative out of pure opinion and gut feel. Interestingly, when looking at historical events and trends, a surprisingly large part of the scientific community supports strong statistical data as the way to do effective analysis, go figure.

Stats can be more than handy but how do measure a collective will to win, a never say die attitude,  heart,  general attitude,  energy,  ruthlessness,  application & motivation.  All key areas of footy or sport in general.

The eyes have it FTP.  I trust my own eyes as I'm sure you do as well. 

And decision making is almost impossible to measure correctly.  Again,  the eyes have it.  Gut running & fitness levels?  There's a lot to it.

1 hour ago, Macca said:

Stats can be more than handy but how do measure a collective will to win, a never say die attitude,  heart,  general attitude,  energy,  ruthlessness,  application & motivation.  All key areas of footy or sport in general.

The eyes have it FTP.  I trust my own eyes as I'm sure you do as well. 

And decision making is almost impossible to measure correctly.  Again,  the eyes have it.  Gut running & fitness levels?  There's a lot to it.

Yes, but you don't get a lot of good stats without a 'never say die attitude" etc.   While stats may not say everything, they do say something, probably quite a lot.

13 minutes ago, sue said:

Yes, but you don't get a lot of good stats without a 'never say die attitude" etc.   While stats may not say everything, they do say something, probably quite a lot.

 

1 hour ago, Macca said:

Stats can be more than handy

 

I'd love to know our stats on handballs to feet, we'd be number one by a mile. Also handball receives by a stationary receiver would be right up there. Speed of players exiting a congested area would surely be 18th. 

I'd love to know the average distance of attempted pass (hand or foot) that is turned over directly to the opposition. Call it the butcher stat. I'm sure we'd be right up there, or should I say down there?

Number of players committing to tackle a single opposition player would again be enlightening. We usually send at least two or three due to a lack of trust in our team mate's ability to get the job done. 

Come on Champion Data, think outside the box.

On 9/27/2019 at 9:43 AM, Macca said:

I'll take 9-11 wins as we're now back to a point where we've got quite a bit to do in order for the club being able to build a top list (as least in the foreseeable future)  Not sure the list is being coached well either.  But of course the Coaching dept. can improve much like the list can improve.

My ambition for the club far outstrips the club's ambition.  It's one thing wanting to be great but it's another thing having a great plan to become great.  We've got too many issues to address all at once.  I suppose we're a knockout hope but the substance isn't substantial.

9 -11 wins at least brings back a bit of respectability and we can then (hopefully) build from there.  5 & 17 is close enough to basket-case so we've got it all ahead of us RL.  We're playing catch-up.

We weren't far off 9-10 wins this year, the Crows game, both Eagles games and the Kangaroos game were opportunities gone begging. Of course we weren't far off 2-3 wins either with the Suns, Hawks and Blues games going down to the wire but overall I think we have the talent to rebound quickly.

For some reason Wayne has a soft spot for us, i still remember him saying we would win the next five straight after round three.

i couldn't work out what he could see that i couldn't, and yet i kept hoping i was wrong but the emotional kick in the balls just kept coming. Jeez i hope he's right this time around. i just want to go to games knowing we are at least 50/50.

16 hours ago, Macca said:

Stats can be more than handy but how do measure a collective will to win, a never say die attitude,  heart,  general attitude,  energy,  ruthlessness,  application & motivation.  All key areas of footy or sport in general.

The eyes have it FTP.  I trust my own eyes as I'm sure you do as well. 

And decision making is almost impossible to measure correctly.  Again,  the eyes have it.  Gut running & fitness levels?  There's a lot to it.

this is it macca, thats why after round one i knew we were screwed. three young debutont's killed us that day, we could of at least physically buried them, but the desire wasn't there.

22 minutes ago, demonzz said:

this is it macca, thats why after round one i knew we were screwed. three young debutont's killed us that day, we could of at least physically buried them, but the desire wasn't there.

The stats tend to back up what we see as well ZZ.  But not always.  So you combine the numbers with the unmeasurables.

I could be an optimist and foresee finsls next year but I'd rather be pleasantly surprised. 

One stat that was alarming and was a big 'tell' was our conversion rates from inside 50 entries as opposed to 2018. 

My quick appraisal was that our forward line became dysfuntional but the added eye test was how our midfielders were pressed and pressured when kicking into the forward line.

'Rjay' went real early when he stated that we'd been found out but by half way through the season the trend was there.

Nothing that can't be addressed and fixed though.  We do need to add a bunch of talented footballers if we're to be a true contender.  Wouldn't hurt to have a few absolute difference makers too.

 

12 minutes ago, Macca said:

The stats tend to back up what we see as well ZZ.  But not always.  So you combine the numbers with the unmeasurables.

I could be an optimist and foresee finsls next year but I'd rather be pleasantly surprised. 

One stat that was alarming and was a big 'tell' was our conversion rates from inside 50 entries as opposed to 2018. 

My quick appraisal was that our forward line became dysfuntional but the added eye test was how our midfielders were pressed and pressured when kicking into the forward line.

'Rjay' went real early when he stated that we'd been found out but by half way through the season the trend was there.

Nothing that can't be addressed and fixed though.  We do need to add a bunch of talented footballers if we're to be a true contender.  Wouldn't hurt to have a few absolute difference makers too.

 

I reckon we have a couple of difference makers but they just need to mature. Oliver Brayshaw Petracca Viney being the main ones.

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I reckon we have a couple of difference makers but they just need to mature. Oliver Brayshaw Petracca Viney being the main ones.

And I want to be spoilt for choice Gonzo ha ha

Imagine having a super great list? 

We've all seen super lists on numerous occasions going all the way back the great Demon teams of the 50's & 60's

All things are possible and having an excess of talent and trying to fit them all into the salary cap is a fantastic problem to have.  We should be so lucky

And players who achieve success stick around and take pay cuts as well.  Some go but then you can then win with the trades

That's my template.

On 9/27/2019 at 9:02 AM, Redleg said:

Wayne Carey has predicted us to make the biggest rise next year and jump back into the 8.

With a softer draw and far fewer operations, a better club pre season, a few new players and some young developing players as well and importantly a good injury run and maybe a slightly altered game plan, I am also confident of us bouncing back to play finals next year.

With our current coaching staff and fetish for slow unskilled players that won’t be happening.

16 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

With our current coaching staff and fetish for slow unskilled players that won’t be happening.

Probably add 'but great character' to slow and unskilled

2 minutes ago, xiss said:

Probably add 'but great character' to slow and unskilled

Not sure where people are pulling this ‘great character’ aspect to our playing group. We are about as boring and souless as you could get as a footy club. Sure the fair majority are good blokes, but they are about a vanilla group as you get. The only narrative currently driving us is how consistently awful we’ve been for nearly 60 odd years. 

29 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

With our current coaching staff and fetish for slow unskilled players that won’t be happening.

Many of us have banged on for the last few years about drafting pace and skill, but alas, it hasn’t happened and in today’s game style it continues to hamper us.

23 hours ago, Macca said:

Stats can be more than handy but how do measure a collective will to win, a never say die attitude,  heart,  general attitude,  energy,  ruthlessness,  application & motivation.  All key areas of footy or sport in general.

The eyes have it FTP.  I trust my own eyes as I'm sure you do as well. 

And decision making is almost impossible to measure correctly.  Again,  the eyes have it.  Gut running & fitness levels?  There's a lot to it.

This.

We had major issues with the health of the list alin 2019 and i was never going to be our year.

The mental capitulation, and our failure to eke out a couple of hard fought wins late in the season is another thing.

If you want a prototype on how to build up the mental strength of a list look at this years premiers.

7 minutes ago, AaronDaveyChipsAndGravey said:

Not sure where people are pulling this ‘great character’ aspect to our playing group. We are about as boring and souless as you could get as a footy club. Sure the fair majority are good blokes, but they are about a vanilla group as you get. The only narrative currently driving us is how consistently awful we’ve been for nearly 60 odd years. 

Apparently what impressed Roosy about Goody when looking for his successor was he spoke more about club culture than game plans