Is Inside 50 Dominance now a Strategy to Exploit?

[Dockett 32 1,238]

2 hours ago, tiers said:

After the first game against Geelong in 2018, Goodwin lamented the fact that they had rebounded 49 times out of 64 entries into the forward line.

Here we are, 12 months later, and the same toxic game plan is exposed. At times on Saturday I saw a ball kicked high and long into the forward line only for the defence to punch it away and the only player front and square was the opposition.

I used to think that it was only because players were aiming for Jesse's head in the goal square. It now seems that the disease has spread to all players trying to position in the forward line. No good saying that they should be leading because most kicks are not well directed.

I don't mind long (and quick) kicks into the forward line but we must find a way to hold the ball in. That's where we are struggling. A first gamer, a second gamer and the occasional mid passing through is not my idea of a structure that can hold the ball in.

Time for a re-think on strategy and, most importantly, selection.

I thought of the similarity to last year against Geelong too.

Bombing it to a static forward line pretty much the same. Slow learners or haven’t got the message?

The week before ,PA’s forward entries, being so precise ,made our defensive zone somewhat meaningless and made it easier for PA to deliver. Same again with Geelong.

Turnovers from ineffective forward work is going to kill anyone with the new rules because you won’t be able to cover the quick , precise rebound pick off or have an extra bloke as insurance down there.

Others have seen it and it’s happened twice now. New rules  might make it more about ability than grunt in both halves perhaps?

 

 

 

 

 

[drdrake 3,133]

Our game plan is to push players up around the ball, what Port and Geelong have done and Essendon will do it this week is let our half forwards be around the ball, we will sit back inside your forward 50m arc make it a 3 V 6, win the ball here then switch it to fat side of the ground using the spare defenders, the mids run forward our don't run to defend and it ends up being 9 v 6 in our defensive 50m.  Our defenders look like garbage but essentially they are are seeing a wave of unmarked opposition players running at them they need to decide who to man up on.

Our forward entries are shallow when we do get it deep it is Weid or McDonald V 3 even if they bring it to ground we have no small forwards or mids working hard to get to the contest to even the numbers.  Comes to ground fast exit lose players score.  

Get back to coaching like U10s football, stay in positions back your ability to win the one on one contest  work to assist and out work your opponent.  The game is evolving back to one on one football, you can't have 2 -3 loose opposition players sitting across half back un manned.  Port told us last week what they were doing, how dumb are we not to listen, sit back wait for them to kick it to you then go from half back, one of their assistant coaches said we know they will eventually turn it over going inside we wait for this and attack. 

[tiers 2,813]

The new centre bounce rules are not a contributor to the problem. It happens throughout the game, not just after centre bounces, and will continue to happen.

My best guess solution is to spread out to force more one-on-one contests and to kick quick and low into the forward line so the opposition do not have the time to set-up. This could allow our so-called "chaos" model to come into play where the pack arrives after the contest, not before, and we can play to our strengths.

Better selections would not hurt either.

[Ugottobekidding 1,079]

Weid aand tmac have been utter disapointments so far. 

[poita 3,877]

I'd love to know what Goodwin and his line coaches have been doing since last September, because the lack of  organisation and cohesion of this team at both ends of the ground is abysmal. It honestly looks as though our players have never met each other before taking the field together, let alone actually played together. 

How hard is it for McDonald to lead one way, Weideman the other, and then the smalls drop into the gaps around them. Only Melksham seems to have any idea how to find space. McDonald and Weideman keep leading to the same space, and Petracca and Neal-Bullen get sucked into the pack around them whilst their opponents stand on the outside waiting for the handball receive.

We have to spread better and utilise the space inside forward 50. Don't all congregate in one spot. Make your opponent accountable for you, and don't let them zone off to empty space or to double team the key forwards. Lead up to the ball carrier and demand a pass. Pretty much the same things my son learns at under 9s.

The other end of the ground is harder to fix. Jetta and Hibberd are both horribly out of sorts, and Jetta in particular looks to still be carrying an injury. Frost and McDonald should not be played in the same side, and May's underwhelming efforts exacerbated those issues. Oh for a Tom Stewart who falls into our laps and does his job each week. 

Our midfielders are not good at pushing back to help out the defence, so it is very easy for opposition teams to divide and conquer our defenders. Every time a Geelong player slipped their man on Saturday it seemed as though they were able to take possession and score. There was nobody filling space and nobody going third man up.

[Redleg 40,371]

Interestingly the Sunday footy show highlighted a number of our forward 50 entries and there were guys on their own who were ignored. 

The  main culprit was Gus going onto his left foot and blasting away.

We completely ignored guys in good position to score who were unmanned.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

27 minutes ago, drdrake said:

Our game plan is to push players up around the ball, what Port and Geelong have done and Essendon will do it this week is let our half forwards be around the ball, we will sit back inside your forward 50m arc make it a 3 V 6, win the ball here then switch it to fat side of the ground using the spare defenders, the mids run forward our don't run to defend and it ends up being 9 v 6 in our defensive 50m.  Our defenders look like garbage but essentially they are are seeing a wave of unmarked opposition players running at them they need to decide who to man up on.

Our forward entries are shallow when we do get it deep it is Weid or McDonald V 3 even if they bring it to ground we have no small forwards or mids working hard to get to the contest to even the numbers.  Comes to ground fast exit lose players score.  

Get back to coaching like U10s football, stay in positions back your ability to win the one on one contest  work to assist and out work your opponent.  The game is evolving back to one on one football, you can't have 2 -3 loose opposition players sitting across half back un manned.  Port told us last week what they were doing, how dumb are we not to listen, sit back wait for them to kick it to you then go from half back, one of their assistant coaches said we know they will eventually turn it over going inside we wait for this and attack. 

Changes this week....

Out:  Anyone who can't hit a barn door from 10 paces & Goodwin.

In:  Anyone who can and DrDrake!

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

15 minutes ago, poita said:

I'd love to know what Goodwin and his line coaches have been doing since last September, because the lack of  organisation and cohesion of this team at both ends of the ground is abysmal. It honestly looks as though our players have never met each other before taking the field together, let alone actually played together. 

How hard is it for McDonald to lead one way, Weideman the other, and then the smalls drop into the gaps around them. Only Melksham seems to have any idea how to find space. McDonald and Weideman keep leading to the same space, and Petracca and Neal-Bullen get sucked into the pack around them whilst their opponents stand on the outside waiting for the handball receive.

We have to spread better and utilise the space inside forward 50. Don't all congregate in one spot. Make your opponent accountable for you, and don't let them zone off to empty space or to double team the key forwards. Lead up to the ball carrier and demand a pass. Pretty much the same things my son learns at under 9s.

The other end of the ground is harder to fix. Jetta and Hibberd are both horribly out of sorts, and Jetta in particular looks to still be carrying an injury. Frost and McDonald should not be played in the same side, and May's underwhelming efforts exacerbated those issues. Oh for a Tom Stewart who falls into our laps and does his job each week. 

Our midfielders are not good at pushing back to help out the defence, so it is very easy for opposition teams to divide and conquer our defenders. Every time a Geelong player slipped their man on Saturday it seemed as though they were able to take possession and score. There was nobody filling space and nobody going third man up.

Fix this and we lose by only 60 on Sat.

Then there's the backline including the return of Lewis & Lever (40 point loss).

Dr drake's set up issues (20 point loss).

Bring back some general speed / spread on the outside and some crumbing  up forward (Jeffy, Hannan) and 2 way running (match goes either way).

Find a superstar that can turn a game on its head in 10 to 15 minutes of scintillating ininspirational footy.... WIN!

Simples!

[—coach— 3,496]

3 hours ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

I too have been perplexed by our lack of ability to offer genuine forward leads. One reason is that our forwards seem to push forward to quickly meaning that a lead, even if successful, leaves them too far out. As @Fanatique Demon alludes to above it is a structural or set up issue.

Why doesn't one key forward always stay back near the goals? It would provide a leading option, Also it would split the defence to some extent and avoid being constantly outnumbered at forward contests.

Unless you have a Wayne Carey or Tony Locket up forward then expecting to win contested pack marks regularly is a dream.

This is where Pruess could be well utilized. If he is planted in the goal square with the instruction to either stay there (thus taking one of the key defenders off the other team, which softens the opposition on Weid and Tmac) or lead out and smash into anyone (with eyes on the ball of course) who dares stand in front of you guarding space looking for the easy mark, then we have a beast of a guy there who the opposition can not ignore. Meanwhile TMac and Weid who are both more mobile are free to roam and the smaller guys can get around all this timber looking dangerous for the spillages which will inevitably occur.

Simplistic I know, but it has to be better than kicking it to Trac over and over again

[drdrake 3,133]

4 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

Changes this week....

Out:  Anyone who can't hit a barn door from 10 paces & Goodwin.

In:  Anyone who can and DrDrake!

It isn't rocket science but we didn't see the game change coming which is a concern.  

We are setting up like we are flying, defenders to high up the ground, issue with that is we aren't keeping the ball inside our 50m arc it is in and out, they have no chance getting back to defend.  Need to anchor 2-3 players in defensive 50m arc

[Bitter but optimistic 22,123]

15 minutes ago, —coach— said:

This is where Pruess could be well utilized. If he is planted in the goal square with the instruction to either stay there (thus taking one of the key defenders off the other team, which softens the opposition on Weid and Tmac) or lead out and smash into anyone (with eyes on the ball of course) who dares stand in front of you guarding space looking for the easy mark, then we have a beast of a guy there who the opposition can not ignore. Meanwhile TMac and Weid who are both more mobile are free to roam and the smaller guys can get around all this timber looking dangerous for the spillages which will inevitably occur.

Simplistic I know, but it has to be better than kicking it to Trac over and over again

I have wondered, as have many others, whether we will see the Max/Pruess combination which would allow us to have a forward "tower".

The problem at the moment is we have looked slow and are lacking a pacy forward crumber. I just don't think we could risk having another lumberer in the side.

 

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

23 minutes ago, drdrake said:

It isn't rocket science but we didn't see the game change coming which is a concern.  

We are setting up like we are flying, defenders to high up the ground, issue with that is we aren't keeping the ball inside our 50m arc it is in and out, they have no chance getting back to defend.  Need to anchor 2-3 players in defensive 50m arc

Unfortunately Dr there are some clubs that seem incapable of consistently getting the basics down as a bare minimum and then building / tweaking / adjusting personel / game style and set ups/match ups a little around those basics to gradually improve from off weeks or a period of good form.

Whatever we did right in 2018 it was totally dismantled in the Prelim by the eventual premiers.

Every club (coaches, line coaches and  game analysts) would have picked that Prelim to pieces and now knows the basic blue print for a Demon walloping.

Whilst the 6/6/6 factor has no doubt impacted our set up off the back of the square that can't be the only reason we've been so abysmal since the win over the Hawks.

Surgeries and injuries have no doubt taken their toll somewhat so I'm not hitting the panic button just yet.  By round 6 we will have a much better idea of whether it's just a personel/fitness/form issue or whether we have a serious problem with the entire game style, methods and set ups/structure.

I'm pretty sure it isn't passion and hunger as everything i've heard coming out of the camp suggests the players are fully switched on and are still buying in big time.

Friday night will be a great test of where we are at as a team/club passion wise.  With both teams so horribly out of form It will mostly come down to who wants it most.

Win or lose that match, Goody & Co. (and the boys) have a power of work ahead of them if we are to get this ship back on course for 2019.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Rusty Nails

[drdrake 3,133]

59 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

 

Whilst the 6/6/6 factor has no doubt impacted our set up off the back of the square that can't be the only reason we've been so abysmal since the win over the Hawks.

 

I reckon the 6/6/6 factor has completely stuffed us up.  I reckon the game plan was based around Max Gawn domination of the middle and creating the pressure from the centre bounce.  It seems we are lost if we don't win the center clearance and out side that small part of the game we are disorganised.

It is worrying, we have no chance making the top 8.  Lucky we didn't sell our future pick  

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

1 hour ago, drdrake said:

I reckon the 6/6/6 factor has completely stuffed us up.  I reckon the game plan was based around Max Gawn domination of the middle and creating the pressure from the centre bounce.  It seems we are lost if we don't win the center clearance and out side that small part of the game we are disorganised.

It is worrying, we have no chance making the top 8.  Lucky we didn't sell our future pick  

We doubled their center clearances though Dr.

Technically speaking we should at least be squaring contests up forward when we do as it's 6 v 6 and yet still only managed to score 3 goals in 3 quarters of footy!!??  We are just horribly inefficient up forward.

Our backline was too easy to score against on Sat night in particular and we have very little run and link up play happening on the outside.  Nor are we capable of maintaining possession in a slow play situation to slow down an Op run on or work our way through extra defenders when going forward.  It seems like we are just constantly full steam ahead without thinking.

They had a plus one in the back half (or more) most of the night did we address it, hold up the ball and look for some short options and change the way we were bringing it in? (a little thought assessment and precision!).  Nope...just keep hacking and bombing it in!  Same old methods and no ability to change them mid game yet we've had years to perfect and work on such set ups.  Especially against the Cats who bring that game style / set up every time.

We might beat the Bongers this Friday if we use a few more brain cells in general play and lower our eyes in general play and coming inside 50 but as for what happens after that who knows.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Rusty Nails

[TGR 1,367]

17 hours ago, Demonia said:

If the ball is locked in the 50 metre line for a while you might get a crumb and goal. But basically its hard to set up goals actually if the defence is set. So basically the best way to score is to allow the opposition to go into the backline, do this, mark it and run it out of defence whilst the opposition is out of position.⁴

When our defensive spread is D grade, then you can multiply this problem.

No wonder opposition can score easy from D50 congestion and convert it to a score.

 

 

That Hawthorn goal last year from City end to Punt Road comes to mind, when the Hawk beat 3 MFC 'defenders' back to goal.

Edited April 1, 2019 by TGR

[jnrmac 19,931]

9 hours ago, tiers said:

After the first game against Geelong in 2018, Goodwin lamented the fact that they had rebounded 49 times out of 64 entries into the forward line.

Here we are, 12 months later, and the same toxic game plan is exposed. At times on Saturday I saw a ball kicked high and long into the forward line only for the defence to punch it away and the only player front and square was the opposition.

I used to think that it was only because players were aiming for Jesse's head in the goal square. It now seems that the disease has spread to all players trying to position in the forward line. No good saying that they should be leading because most kicks are not well directed.

I don't mind long (and quick) kicks into the forward line but we must find a way to hold the ball in. That's where we are struggling. A first gamer, a second gamer and the occasional mid passing through is not my idea of a structure that can hold the ball in.

Time for a re-think on strategy and, most importantly, selection.

Geelong in this game also had 20 shots on goal (80pts) from 24 entries into their fwd 50.

We don't seem to have learnt a lot since then. or at least our defence hasn't

[Lou C. Fur 1,009]

13 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

Great post. It is worth mentioning we have spent big in the last 2 drafts on established backs who will, when on the park, be elite at repelling opposition inside 50’s.

Hold tight we also have better forwards to come back in that can capitalise on the inside 50’s.

I agree that there is depth to tap but there will be an agonising wait for most of those to which you refer before they convalesce. See below (weeks till player's estimated return from injury in brackets):

BACKS: Lever (10), Lewis (4), Tim Smith (1), Joel Smith (5)

FORWARDS/MIDS: vandenBerg (4), Garlett (2), Kennedy-Harris (12), Hannan (10).

Who are the inside 50 capitalist forwards you mention? Are they currently playing at Casey?

[Lou C. Fur 1,009]

13 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

@Demonia - I don't have anything massive to add right now, but I just wanted to say that was a ripping OP.  Thoughtful, concise, looked at both sides and didn't need to go over the top.  Nicely done.

Thanks WB.

[Lou C. Fur 1,009]

9 hours ago, —coach— said:

This is where Pruess could be well utilized. If he is planted in the goal square with the instruction to either stay there (thus taking one of the key defenders off the other team, which softens the opposition on Weid and Tmac) or lead out and smash into anyone (with eyes on the ball of course) who dares stand in front of you guarding space looking for the easy mark, then we have a beast of a guy there who the opposition can not ignore. Meanwhile TMac and Weid who are both more mobile are free to roam and the smaller guys can get around all this timber looking dangerous for the spillages which will inevitably occur.

Simplistic I know, but it has to be better than kicking it to Trac over and over again

I like it. It worked in the past with Strawbs and Jimmy, why not now with Preuss and Max? 

[beelzebub 23,242]

10 hours ago, —coach— said:

 

Simplistic I know, but it has to be better than kicking it to Trac over and over again

Footy is not nearly as complicated as some seem to think.

It's not , or shouldn't be as hard , as we create it for ourselves.

We're stubborn in our approach so situations which ought to be playable to advantage become wasted because we overcomplicate a very straightforward thing...forward 50 entries.

We also have f all idea about a workable efficient forward setup.

Strangely...a notion totally ignored by our current brains trust is that skill will get you scores. We try to push it through the scoring pathway as if that in itself is a real method. 

Melbourne...the British bulldogs of footy

Constantly outsmarted by cleverer coaching.

Simon...you need to learn from those you compete against...they're beating you.

Edited April 1, 2019 by beelzebub

[spirit of norm smith 15,490]

37 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Footy is not nearly as complicated as some seem to think.

It's not , or shouldn't be as hard , as we create it for ourselves.

We're stubborn in our approach so situations which ought to be playable to advantage become wasted because we overcomplicate a very straightforward thing...forward 50 entries.

We also have f all idea about a workable efficient forward setup.

Strangely...a notion totally ignored by our current brains trust is that skill will get you scores. We try to push it through the scoring pathway as if that in itself is a real method. 

Melbourne...the British bulldogs of footy

Constantly outsmarted by cleverer coaching.

Simon...you need to learn from those you compete against...they're beating you.

Agree

[Lou C. Fur 1,009]

11 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Agree

Also agree