Farewell Jesse Hogan

[DV8 2,271]

1 minute ago, layzie said:

How do we have too many players for his position though? We have Weed who isn't up to it yet, Smith who is a bit parter and Pedo who is 32 next year. Don't see too many others fighting for his position long term? 

Hogans best position is playing, high 40+ out from goal, and around the centreline...  Taking marks in the wide part of the ground, and bringing the ball in to our deeper players... a true CHF position.  Jesse is a natural, roaming wide to find the footy__   Which is why i wanted us to take him, some years back.

 

TMc is better standing his ground to take strong overhead marks than Jesse.  TMc has a better leap into a pack, from the rear or the side.

 

Add Pedo, who is another like these two, more like Tmc.

 

Weide is different, in that he plays more like a tall forward, Re packs, high marks, and as a follower__  Which is why I wanted him in the first place, some years back.

 

I also wanted Grundy.?

.

[DV8 2,271]

7 minutes ago, MSFebey said:

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2018-08-14/hogan-to-miss-rest-of-the-season

bugga.

 

Well that leaves us now in a position, forced on us, to play a better forward structure.

# on the weekend... rot.  Jesse has been hobbling for some time.   notably against the Crows.

.

What are the doctors doing... how many stress fractures go un-diagnosed, until its plainly obvious to the TV cameras ?

[DV8 2,271]

10 minutes ago, Dr.D said:

losing hogan is no loss. probably play with real spirit now without having the staging sook inside 50m

This  'Cans',  the trade idea, now.

[layzie 33,805]

Just now, DV8 said:

Hogans best position is playing, high 40+ out from goal, and around the centreline...  Taking marks in the wide part of the ground, and bringing the ball in to our deeper players... a true CHF position.  Jesse is a natural, roaming wide to find the footy__   Which is why i wanted us to take him, some years back.

 

TMc is better standing his ground to take strong overhead marks than Jesse.  TMc has a better leap into a pack, from the rear or the side.

 

Add Pedo, who is another like these two, more like Tmc.

 

Weide is different, in that he plays more like a tall forward, Re packs, high marks, and as a follower__  Which is why I wanted him in the first place, some years back.

 

I also wanted Grundy.?

.

I agree with the thoughts that he is more suited to being a true CHF player but we surely don't have many guys at all for this particular role?

[Dee tention 616]

Your foot is up for trade Jesse! Which one is it? ?

[DV8 2,271]

17 minutes ago, layzie said:

I agree with the thoughts that he is more suited to being a true CHF player but we surely don't have many guys at all for this particular role?

Hogan, TMc, Pedo, at this point.

Weide to play deep, with Gawn resting there.

 

What we don't have is collateral to trade/spend, for a Whitfield or the like.  Hogan was the one for this.

[grazman 7,436]

14 hours ago, Dirts said:

Dockers would give us 1st rounder 2018, 2  nd rounder 2019 and a player. Worth a look

If the club had any inkling that Jesse wanted to go home at the end of his current contract  it should do this deal, particularly if the player is Langdon.

[Moonshadow 17,676]

On 8/13/2018 at 12:48 PM, Bombay Airconditioning said:

I just posted earlier to Jaded, I would target a Giants mid, maybe a Cognilio (24 years old) or Whitfield (24 years old) or Shiel (25) Kelly (23) doesn’t matter if they’re in contact because as we know they can be broken. Giants get the picks from the Hogan trade allowing them to attack the draft again for top end talent. Giants still have Scully, Ward amongst others, if the price was right we might be able to squeeze one out. 

 

Then for Peter Wright we could trade fringe players/ 2nd round picks. Would Peter Wright kick 50 goals, probably not, but with another gun mid he could get 30-35 as well as playing ruck. But on the flip side we leave TMac at FF and he could get anywhere between 60-70. 

If these scenarios or something couldn’t happen I wouldn’t trade Hogan purely for picks that we keep.

Bingo!

Reports have Essendon in negotiations with Shiel. He's exactly what we need. Hogan to Freo, Freo first two picks (6 & 24) to GWS, Shiel to Dees.

I do not want Hogan to leave, but sometimes strange things happen in trade week

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,395]

23 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Bingo!

Reports have Essendon in negotiations with Shiel. He's exactly what we need. Hogan to Freo, Freo first two picks (6 & 24) to GWS, Shiel to Dees.

I do not want Hogan to leave, but sometimes strange things happen in trade week

I wasn’t aware of the interest from  Essendon.

I would do that deal without hesitation.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

32 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Bingo!

Reports have Essendon in negotiations with Shiel

What report is that, Moonie?  All I've read is that someone asked Worsfold about him, he played a straight bat with the answer and the Sun ran with a report that they are targeting him.  Doesn't seem like a whole lot in it to me.

[Moonshadow 17,676]

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

What report is that, Moonie?  All I've read is that someone asked Worsfold about him, he played a straight bat with the answer and the Sun ran with a report that they are targeting him.  Doesn't seem like a whole lot in it to me.

Two main Melbourne papers reporting it is something, Wise. Of course Worsfold will play a straight bat, did you expect him to say they've reached agreement already? May amount to nothing. As I said, strange things happen in trade week. 

From The Age:

"The Bombers are understood to have Greater Western Sydney midfielder Dylan Shiel on their radar with the coach trotting out a familiar line when asked about reports they were interested in the 25-year-old Giant."

If we supposedly have $ in our cap for 2 stars, why not Shiel? Or are we just happy to let Essendon stroll past and snaffle him with ease? (yes, I know, that's probably hyperbole)

[JackDeMan 42]

Absolutely no way should we trade Jesse Hogan now. I was in favour of it a year or two ago as a direct trade for Nat Fyfe, but that deal is long gone, and I reckon that Jesse is now loving it at the Demons with this group of players, and friends.

But I do think we need to look at other options as to where Jesse can play, and that may open up other possibilities to improve the team. And I am talking about the future here, not what's left of 2018.

Currently we have both Jesse and TMac in the forward line. Tom is a terrible short-pass kick (kicks at the team-mate rather than to the team-mate's advantage), and Jesse is a terrific short-pass kick. Tom is a great set shot for goal kick, Jesse has a terrible set shot technique, but his actual results are not as bad as his technique.

So Tom cannot play in the backline, as most goals are scored from turnovers, and we have a problem with contested marking in defence, for which Jesse may be the answer.

OMac is a very defensive type of player who I hope will improve over the next couple of years, and Sam Frost has terrific speed and I like him as a player. But neither are much good at contested marking. Jake Lever is a great intercept mark, and reasonably good at contested marks.

We have to make changes, because we are not good enough.

What I am suggesting is:

1. Jesse Hogan as the contested mark in defence but not too deep, probably starting at centre-half back, so that he can also be involved in the play around mid-field, which he is really good at, plus he has great mobility. I think we are actually wasting this aspect of his abilities when we play him as a deep forward.
2. Jake Lever as the intercept mark in defence, playing anywhere, once he returns from injury.
3. Tom McDonald as the high forward (great endurance), but still within kicking distance of goal.
4. Sam Weideman as the deep forward, changing with Max Gawn in the Ruck, but not going into Forward 50 whilst rucking. Sam has played well in the Ruck when given the chance, and we need to provide Max with plenty of support for his longevity in the game, and to reduce our reliance on one player in that position.
5. Max Gawn as the Ruckman, changing at full-forward with Sam, but not going into Forward 50 whilst rucking. Max should never go to the bench for a rest - go to full-forward instead. That will preserve the interchange for the mid-field players, who run the hardest.
6. OMac or Sam are out of the best 22, but will be terrific players to bring into the team when injuries inevitably present themselves.

[dpositive 1,665]

On 8/13/2018 at 8:57 PM, Bonkers said:

He has kicked 42 of his goals this year against the bottom 10 sides? Barely averaging a goal a game against the top sides.

Have laboured my way through tnis thread and wonder if I watch the same player.

Hogan demands attention. Other sides recognise that. Top sides are better at double teaming or structuring to counter him.

i cannot understand how when he is double teamed we still kick it to him. Someone else must be free . Where is our structure and game plan and specifically plan B when A is not working

 

[John Demonic 5,796]

Interesting stat about 4 goals in 5 games against top 8 teams. Not averse to exploring the Dylan Shiel idea more. Absolute gun. But he seems like captain material though so I think he'll stay.

Edited August 14, 2018 by johndemonic

[DV8 2,271]

7 hours ago, JackDeMan said:

Absolutely no way should we trade Jesse Hogan now. I was in favour of it a year or two ago as a direct trade for Nat Fyfe, but that deal is long gone, and I reckon that Jesse is now loving it at the Demons with this group of players, and friends.

But I do think we need to look at other options as to where Jesse can play, and that may open up other possibilities to improve the team. And I am talking about the future here, not what's left of 2018.

Currently we have both Jesse and TMac in the forward line. Tom is a terrible short-pass kick (kicks at the team-mate rather than to the team-mate's advantage), and Jesse is a terrific short-pass kick. Tom is a great set shot for goal kick, Jesse has a terrible set shot technique, but his actual results are not as bad as his technique.

So Tom cannot play in the backline, as most goals are scored from turnovers, and we have a problem with contested marking in defence, for which Jesse may be the answer.

OMac is a very defensive type of player who I hope will improve over the next couple of years, and Sam Frost has terrific speed and I like him as a player. But neither are much good at contested marking. Jake Lever is a great intercept mark, and reasonably good at contested marks.

We have to make changes, because we are not good enough.

What I am suggesting is:

1. Jesse Hogan as the contested mark in defence but not too deep, probably starting at centre-half back, so that he can also be involved in the play around mid-field, which he is really good at, plus he has great mobility. I think we are actually wasting this aspect of his abilities when we play him as a deep forward.
2. Jake Lever as the intercept mark in defence, playing anywhere, once he returns from injury.
3. Tom McDonald as the high forward (great endurance), but still within kicking distance of goal.
4. Sam Weideman as the deep forward, changing with Max Gawn in the Ruck, but not going into Forward 50 whilst rucking. Sam has played well in the Ruck when given the chance, and we need to provide Max with plenty of support for his longevity in the game, and to reduce our reliance on one player in that position.
5. Max Gawn as the Ruckman, changing at full-forward with Sam, but not going into Forward 50 whilst rucking. Max should never go to the bench for a rest - go to full-forward instead. That will preserve the interchange for the mid-field players, who run the hardest.
6. OMac or Sam are out of the best 22, but will be terrific players to bring into the team when injuries inevitably present themselves.

I like your creative thinking JDM.   Agree with most.

[DV8 2,271]

31 minutes ago, johndemonic said:

Not sure if it was mentioned but On the Couch mentioned he has kicked 42 goals in 15 games against the bottom 10 teams and 4 goals in 5 games against the top 8.

this is it in a nutshell.

Played out of position, and our Mids are way too easily controlled.

[John Demonic 5,796]

Ideally Hogan plays an Adel-Tom Lynch type of roaming HF. He was doing it in the first half of the year, i'm confused as to why he hasn't been doing it in the second half? Foot injury would explain why it seems

Edited August 14, 2018 by johndemonic

[jackaub 1,402]

7 hours ago, dpositive said:

Have laboured my way through tnis thread and wonder if I watch the same player.

Hogan demands attention. Other sides recognise that. Top sides are better at double teaming or structuring to counter him.

i cannot understand how when he is double teamed we still kick it to him. Someone else must be free . Where is our structure and game plan and specifically plan B when A is not working

 

The team at the moment has very low footy IQ dp

Total bfrustration watching it happen over end over and over again

This lot dont seeem to learn Hope they do soon as it makes us easier to beat even though we win all the stats

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,395]

5 hours ago, johndemonic said:

Ideally Hogan plays an Adel-Tom Lynch type of roaming HF. He was doing it in the first half of the year, i'm confused as to why he hasn't been doing it in the second half? Foot injury would explain why it seems

Agree with this, but with this comes a significant pay drop. 

[Wiseblood 24,637]

8 hours ago, johndemonic said:

Interesting stat about 4 goals in 5 games against top 8 teams. Not averse to exploring the Dylan Shiel idea more. Absolute gun. But he seems like captain material though so I think he'll stay.

That stat changes all the time depending on who is in the 8.  He has kicked 4 against the Cats this year and they've spent most of the season inside the eight.

[ProperDee 1,698]

JackDeMan makes some very good points. People forget that Jesse was AA CHB as a junior player.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Also, while it's hard to argue that his output is lower against Top 8 sides, our output across the board has been lower against those sides as well.  Apart from 5-6 players, everyone is down on their contribution this season when playing those top sides, so it's not as if he's on his own in this.  If the midfield isn't giving us much, and the defense is able to get back in numbers, what chance does he have?

I know Tom has been a little better in this regard than Jesse, but then he didn't play the Geelong, Richmond or Hawthorn games earlier in the season either, and thus has spent more time playing the bottom 8 sides than the top 8 sides.

 

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,395]

40 minutes ago, ProperDee said:

JackDeMan makes some very good points. People forget that Jesse was AA CHB as a junior player.

How would Hogan go on Buddy, Ben Brown or a Joe Danniher type. If the answer is for Hogan to play in defence that actually strengthens the argument to trade him and a trade should be sought before any such move was to happen. If Hogan was to play in defence it would be an admissioyn of defeat.

The no.1 trait of a key defender isn’t contested marking or kicking, it’s the ability to beat your opponent. That can be by out marking his opponent, but it can also be by punching/spoiling the footy. In order to be at the contest you also have to have the physical attributes to match up against some of the games best forwards. Hogan is a great mark leading up onto the ball but that doesn’t necessarily translate to outmarking fwds that just up at the footy.  As for kicking, yes Hogan uses the ball well when passing by foot while others such as Frost and Omac often get criticised by their disposal but that’s why we’ve got the likes of Salem and Lewis down there. All players are required to kick the footy but there have been numerous times in most games where the ball could/should be passed off to our better users of the footy.

In short I’d rather another gun mid than Hogan playing at CHB.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Bombay Airconditioning

[CityDee 738]

So it’s a no . Brilliant . 

 

[Grimes Times 1,278]

17 hours ago, JackDeMan said:

Absolutely no way should we trade Jesse Hogan now. I was in favour of it a year or two ago as a direct trade for Nat Fyfe, but that deal is long gone, and I reckon that Jesse is now loving it at the Demons with this group of players, and friends.

But I do think we need to look at other options as to where Jesse can play, and that may open up other possibilities to improve the team. And I am talking about the future here, not what's left of 2018.

Currently we have both Jesse and TMac in the forward line. Tom is a terrible short-pass kick (kicks at the team-mate rather than to the team-mate's advantage), and Jesse is a terrific short-pass kick. Tom is a great set shot for goal kick, Jesse has a terrible set shot technique, but his actual results are not as bad as his technique.

So Tom cannot play in the backline, as most goals are scored from turnovers, and we have a problem with contested marking in defence, for which Jesse may be the answer.

OMac is a very defensive type of player who I hope will improve over the next couple of years, and Sam Frost has terrific speed and I like him as a player. But neither are much good at contested marking. Jake Lever is a great intercept mark, and reasonably good at contested marks.

We have to make changes, because we are not good enough.

What I am suggesting is:

1. Jesse Hogan as the contested mark in defence but not too deep, probably starting at centre-half back, so that he can also be involved in the play around mid-field, which he is really good at, plus he has great mobility. I think we are actually wasting this aspect of his abilities when we play him as a deep forward.
2. Jake Lever as the intercept mark in defence, playing anywhere, once he returns from injury.
3. Tom McDonald as the high forward (great endurance), but still within kicking distance of goal.
4. Sam Weideman as the deep forward, changing with Max Gawn in the Ruck, but not going into Forward 50 whilst rucking. Sam has played well in the Ruck when given the chance, and we need to provide Max with plenty of support for his longevity in the game, and to reduce our reliance on one player in that position.
5. Max Gawn as the Ruckman, changing at full-forward with Sam, but not going into Forward 50 whilst rucking. Max should never go to the bench for a rest - go to full-forward instead. That will preserve the interchange for the mid-field players, who run the hardest.
6. OMac or Sam are out of the best 22, but will be terrific players to bring into the team when injuries inevitably present themselves.

Weideman would also be a great option as CHB. Played U18 games there and showed he could play the position.