JackDeMan

We get beaten badly in the Stoppage Clearances, especially when we lose. Until the coaches sort that out, we can forget about another premiership.

Usually done indirectly with three-way trades involving draft picks

Jesse Hogan is worth Picks 4 and 5. Freo should get Pick 4 from Brisbane for Neale and they already have Pick 5. Then we keep Pick 4 to pick up a Victorian midfielder in the Draft and trade Pick 5 for May and KK from Gold Coast. May is not worth Pick 5 as a direct trade. After that, Dyson and vandenBerg to GWS for Dylan Shiel, and GWS can on-trade Tyson if he doesn't want to go back to his old club; Kent to North for Braydon Preuss, and North to trade Kent to St Kilda for whatever they can get. Call me old-fashioned (because that is what I am), but I have had enough of these want-away Demons - trade them for the max that we can get and we move on. One last one, - would love to get Langdon from Collingwood, but haven't yet worked out the trade, unless it involves Jayden Hunt, but sounds like he is not a want-away Demon, nd the Demons still want him, so I would not want to trade him out.

Not sure if anyone on Demonland is as old as me but Sam reminds me of "Thunderbirds Are Go".

Absolutely no way should we trade Jesse Hogan now. I was in favour of it a year or two ago as a direct trade for Nat Fyfe, but that deal is long gone, and I reckon that Jesse is now loving it at the Demons with this group of players, and friends. But I do think we need to look at other options as to where Jesse can play, and that may open up other possibilities to improve the team. And I am talking about the future here, not what's left of 2018. Currently we have both Jesse and TMac in the forward line. Tom is a terrible short-pass kick (kicks at the team-mate rather than to the team-mate's advantage), and Jesse is a terrific short-pass kick. Tom is a great set shot for goal kick, Jesse has a terrible set shot technique, but his actual results are not as bad as his technique. So Tom cannot play in the backline, as most goals are scored from turnovers, and we have a problem with contested marking in defence, for which Jesse may be the answer. OMac is a very defensive type of player who I hope will improve over the next couple of years, and Sam Frost has terrific speed and I like him as a player. But neither are much good at contested marking. Jake Lever is a great intercept mark, and reasonably good at contested marks. We have to make changes, because we are not good enough. What I am suggesting is: Jesse Hogan as the contested mark in defence but not too deep, probably starting at centre-half back, so that he can also be involved in the play around mid-field, which he is really good at, plus he has great mobility. I think we are actually wasting this aspect of his abilities when we play him as a deep forward. Jake Lever as the intercept mark in defence, playing anywhere, once he returns from injury. Tom McDonald as the high forward (great endurance), but still within kicking distance of goal. Sam Weideman as the deep forward, changing with Max Gawn in the Ruck, but not going into Forward 50 whilst rucking. Sam has played well in the Ruck when given the chance, and we need to provide Max with plenty of support for his longevity in the game, and to reduce our reliance on one player in that position. Max Gawn as the Ruckman, changing at full-forward with Sam, but not going into Forward 50 whilst rucking. Max should never go to the bench for a rest - go to full-forward instead. That will preserve the interchange for the mid-field players, who run the hardest. OMac or Sam are out of the best 22, but will be terrific players to bring into the team when injuries inevitably present themselves.

A few issues with this post. "His record doesn't yet count" - we improved by 20% in Simon Goodwin's first year. The "extremely talented players" lost by over 100 points in Paul Roos' last game as coach. "You can't have a team of all Viney's", agreed, but you have to have the instinct to contest. "I'm now interested to see if Goodwin learns his own lesson. Jack will be fine." - What lesson is that, exactly? And after 9 years of inconsistent performance, why will Jack be fine? I think that Jack is the one that needs to learn a lesson.

All the more reason to trade him out

Crikey!!

I think the "hasn't lived up to expectations" thing is not about being a number 1 draft pick, like, 9 years ago. It's about his poor preparation in this pre-season, 2017, and about why he performed so poorly after his return from his hamstring injury late in the season. He could not even get up for his own 150th - he put in a shocker that day - and after 3 poor games in a row, he got dropped to the VFL. Have people forgotten about that?? In contrast, Nathan Jones came back from his 6 weeks off with a calf injury, and he played like he hadn't missed a game. I am really disappointed that people on this forum are sticking the boots into Simon Goodwin because he has taken a stand against Jack Watts. Just going by games won this year, the team that Goodwin has ultimate responsibility for has improved by 20% (12 wins this year - 10 wins last year) - not bad for a first time senior coach in his first year. Has Jack Watts improved by 20% this year?

WATTS - had his chances like the guy but sick of talking about him 1 good season in 9 time to trade - Agreed. SALEM - again consistency & fitness a huge concern, maybe for the right trade - Keep, classy player. TYSON - maybe we have a few to many like him maybe for the right trade - Keep, great ball-winner but needs to improve his kicking. KENT - so inconsistent & injury prone - Not much good so cannot trade. STRETCH - what does he give us? - Keep, only just starting his career, and showed quite a bit in 2016. JKH - Hasn't stepped up from VFL to AFL - Keep, only just starting his career, and has speed. WAGNER - to many half back flankers!! - Keep, only just starting his career, and had a pretty good 2016.

Jack Watts cooked his own goose with his pre-season. Really poor from a player entering his ninth year to effectively get suspended from the pre-season competition. People keep mentioning his accuracy in front of goals, and whilst I agree he is very accurate, he doesn't shoot for goal very often - 143 goals in 153 games. Not sure now about Lever. Previously I was pretty strong on him, but he is certainly not worth 2 first-round draft picks, and if Collingwood are silly enough to do that deal (as is now being reported), then let them do it. Hopefully, Oscar Mac and Sam Frost will continue to develop as tall defenders, as they did last year. I like the idea of T Mac as a deep forward. Always puts up a strong contest for the footy. His only weakness is his short-kicking, so if he is deep forward, he just has to just kick at goal, which he did really well in the season just gone.I think Jesse Hogan would be great further up the ground at half-forward. Tom and Jesse are our two tall forwards - shouldn't have three. Not sure about Weeds - maybe he should be developed as a tall back, as Hawthorn have done with Ryan Burton.

Definitely trade him. His apparently poor preparation in the pre-season, for an experienced player. was deplorable.

Yes, of course injuries impact performance. Every side would like to have their best 22 playing every week. Collingwood had more of their best 22 out than us in that last game, and much less to play for, and GWS have had a lot of injuries throughout the whole year. So you can still win games with injuries. I thought we did pretty well during the middle part of the year, when we did have several good players out plus the 6-day breaks, as Simon Goodwin urged us to. Inconsistency was the problem - and thankfully, Simon Goodwin knows it. It's now a matter of what he does about it.

No worries - thank for your explanation, and it looks like I did take it the wrong way.

Fair enough - forgot about Jayden Hunt, but it was high-risk (Pick 57). Darcy Gardiner was on-traded in a 3-way deal with Port Adelaide and Brisbane - GWS got Rory Lobb out of that deal. End result was a player who gets the ball a lot but butchers it (Dom Tyson), a player who got dropped to the VFL late in the season, and a pretty good half-back, for an elite player and a reasonable forward-ruckman. My main point is that we had to take those risks back then, but not now. We need to toughen up in our assessment of our playing list - not sure why so many people on this forum seem to be justifying a team full of players who wasted an opportunity to finish 8th, for goodness sake. We haven't won a premiership since 1964. I hate watching players like Tyson win the hard ball and then waste it.

Not sure what "please - insert deity" means, but it sounds to me like you are being quite disrespectful of another Demon supporter's point of view. I am fully aware that I don't have any divine authority on these matters - just putting up my point of view,. If you don't agree, I would expect a more mature response. Unfortunately for Jack, I don't think the decision it is now up to him. He cooked his own goose by not working hard enough in the pre-season. What future would he have at a club that has decided it no longer wants him?

Definitely must keep our first and second round draft picks. In recent times, we gave up Pick 2 (Josh Kelly) and a later pick (which eventually turned out to be Rory Lobb), for Dom Tyson and Pick 9 (Christian Salem), and then later on, Pick 24 (Matt Crouch) for Bernie Vince. It's a high risk strategy that we needed to do at that time because we had won just 2 games the previous year and simply had to improve by getting players with some experience into our Club, but now, we need to keep our first and second round picks for ourselves. We are not in the premiership window yet, but it will evolve.

Chinese whispers happening here. I was saying Carlton (not Adelaide) gets Watts and Trengove for a player that does not want to be there (Gibbs). Adelaide gets Gibbs (who they pitched for last year) and our second draft pick. We get Lever. Maybe Carlton need a bit more - next year's second round draft pick, perhaps.

We blew our spot in the finals because we lost 5 games that we were expected to win (Freo at the MCG, North at the MCG, Hawthorn at the MCG when they were going bad, North at Hobart, and Collingwood at the MCG), and we won only 3 games that we were expected to lose (St Kilda Round 1 at Etihad, Adelaide in Adelaide, and West Coast in Perth). Even up that score and we are in the finals comfortably. And the reason we lost those games - inconsistency - one bad quarter in each game. Nothing to do with interstate trips, 6-day breaks, or injuries. We can only improve if we understand why we had those bad quarters in those games. For example, in the last game against Collingwood, most comments have been about our low tackle count in the first quarter. But a low tackle count is the end result of other things that you do, or don't do. I watched a reply of that first quarter, and we weren't close enough to the Collingwood players to lay a tackle, suggesting our structures at stoppages was out of whack, or we weren't running hard enough. I suspect both. Either way, we need to send a very strong message to the players that you get the results you deserve, and not working hard enough in the pre-season (which was what Jack Watts did) means you are not good enough to make the finals. BTW, it is not only Jack Watts that needs a kick up the bum. Dom Tyson's kicking is atrocious, even when it seems not to be . Under no pressure in that last game, he kicked the ball out of bounds, when he was trying to deliver it to his team-mate. And Tom McDonald is the worst short-kick in the game, bar no-one. At least those two players prepare hard, and compete hard, but they have to improve in their skill deficiencies, otherwise they won't be a part of the next Melbourne Premiership team, whenever that is.

I think Trenners can still play AFL, but has been nudged out of Melbourne by other mids and half-backs. Plus he has leadership written all over him, going by what we already know, and Justin Plapp's comments about his games in the VFL this year. I actually don't want to see him go, but he doesn't seem to be a "required player" at Melbourne anymore, and I really do think Carlton may have a spot for him. It's not just about the player, it's also about what each club needs and wants and their stage of development. BTW, I think we have done the right thing by him, giving him every opportunity to get back into footy, and now we can do the right thing again, by trying to find another AFL club for him. Your second paragraph looks like a copy and paste of my last one, so no reply required there.

Definitely trade him. He needs a huge kick up the bum to get the best out of himself. That a player with around 150 games needed to be disciplined at the start of the season is an absolute disgrace. He should have been selected into the leadership group. That the players didn't, and that he was not selected for the pre-season games for not working hard enough in the pre-season, suggests to me that he is a player we can trade. BTW, he did play a pretty good game against Collingwood in the last round, but that's the tease. Trade him while we can - bundle him up in a trade for Jake Lever.

Two first round picks are too much, but it does sound like a move is on the cards. This may involve a 3-way deal. What the Crows wanted last year was Bryce Gibbs. Has that changed? I don't think so. Maybe Bryce Gibbs to Adelaide, Jack Watts and Jack Trengove to Carlton, and Jake Lever to Melbourne. This deal is about what each club and player wants and needs. Jake Lever wants to come home to Melbourne, and we seem to be the club at the forefront. We need a top-class defender so Tom McDonald can play up forward permanently. Bryce Gibbs wants the opportunity to play in a premiership team, and Adelaide want him. Carlton need some experienced players (especially in the forward line) to help their young players coming through. Jack Watts needs (probably doesn't want) a kick up the bum to get the best out of himself. We have done it on a few occasions now (even as late as the start of this year), but it barely lasts a season. Jack Trengove wants and needs an opportunity to continue his career at another AFL club. I realise Jack is an uncontracted Restricted Free Agent, but sometimes clubs and players work around the rules in good faith with each other. As a Melbourne supporter, I would love to see him get another opportunity, and I think that Carlton could provide him with that. We would, I think, we have to offer another player to Adelaide, or our second-round draft-pick, to get the deal done, but 2 first-round draft picks is definitely not on.

Before bringing anyone in (and I think each club has to have at least 4 draft picks, or trade them), you have to make room on the list. On other words, it is a List Management exercise. Out of contract are Heritier Lumumba (already gone, but was in the Senior list at the start of the year), Jack Trengove (lost too much time in the game due to injuries and we now have too many players like him, but they are a bit better), Jake Spencer (Cam Pedersen can backup Max Gawn while Mitch King is developing in the VFL), and Liam Hulett (no games in 2 years). Already into the Senior list from the Rookie list are Joel Smith and Corey Maynard. So that means some contracted players need to be traded or delisted and paid out, players such as: Ben Kennedy - no AFL games this year despite being in VFL best players almost every week - untradeable Colin Garland - cannot see him getting another game at senior level - untradeable Tomas Bugg - better players on the list and let himself and the team down - tradeable Jack Watts - lost favour with Simon Goodwin due to lack of fitness at the start of the season, and form since returning from only a 4-week injury layoff has been deplorable - tradeable Dean Kent - seems to have lost favour after the departure of Paul Roos - tradeable, but I like him as a player. Can he be developed into an outside mid, especially with his pace? Apart from Jake Lever, who I think we should target first to further improve our defence, there are a few midfielders at a level lower than Dustin Martin and Josh Kelly that might be available, but may only require a second round draft pick plus a player to get the trade done. These players were out of contract at the start of the year, and I am unsure if some of them have already re-signed with their clubs David Zaharakis - unsure if he has re-signed with Essendon yet Jack Billings - unsure if he has re-signed with St Kilda yet Jacob Hopper - GWS Gary Ablett - one year left with Gold Coast but appears to want out - can we get him for a couple of years - Geelong don't seem to be all that interested.

Thanks - understand now - but I think Lever is a much better than Lynden was at his best. Remember Lynden started as a forward, and did not go back until quite late in his career.

Agree with everything you say, except your first sentence?? Lynden's not coming back. Had to check my post to see if I mentioned him,. BTW, big fan of Frosty's speed and team ethic. See what he did helping out Nev Jetta at the end of the game against Carlton? Nev got all the plaudits, but that was a great example of team defence by both players. Adding Lever to that mix would be huge, I reckon.