POSTMATCH DISCUSSION - Round 18

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,795]

1 hour ago, Diamond_Jim said:

sorry... I have to laugh.... there are so may ways to inform players of the remaining time.... just by positioning an item on the bench differently for each of the last five minutes immediately springs to mind and there are so many others ways one could do it.

I hope they do something like that but doubt it  very much.

[What 18,810]

Max going off with the blood rule with a minute left was so typical of our luck.

[rjay 24,927]

1 hour ago, A F said:

You're one of my favourite posters, mate, but you're off on this one IMO.

There's no way Frost has 7 kicked on him. He demonstrated in the small amount of time that his closing speed meant Hawkins couldn't get it out on the lead, like he had done on the slower Oscar.

Yes, Frost is still positionally unaware sometimes and his positioning contributed to the Tuohy goal, but he showed on at least 2 or 3 occasions in the time that he was on Hawkins, that he was with him for speed.

I would have made the move earlier in the night when we were getting no run off half back from Frost anyway. Allow Oscar to play on the younger opponent and play interceptor. His kicking is a lot better than Frost's as we know and that should have been the move.

That we will never know 'AF'...

He did cost us goals through poor positioning though.

For what it's worth I probably would have made the move earlier but I'm not sure it would have been that effective & understand why Goodie let it go.

He has the closing speed to get a spoil on the ball but Hawkins would have and did give him the run around.

Apart from the one I mentioned in the chain to Toohey check one a bit earlier in a pack situation where Frosty couldn't get up to kill the contest then stood flatfooted watching Hawk turn and goal.

We don't have the options at the moment so Frost it is unless they want to give Pedders a run down back.

Check 5.30min where Hawkins rag dolls Frost and contributes to the goal, 6 min the incident I mentioned above, Frosty is just watching and of course the Toohey one at the end.

 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

23 hours ago, 1 red eye 1 blue eye said:

Home from watching at a friends place and haven't read any of this thread so have no idea what the reactions are but for me I am really proud of that effort, I could bring up plays and moves which might have been the difference but that's not the point of this post. The commitment was outstanding it was exactly what I hope my team can deliver every week. Disappointed obviously, but not anywhere near as feral as I have been in the past.

I loved the way we played an attacking game, constantly looked to bring the ball through the middle corridor instead of long down the line around the boundary. Petracca, Spargo and Oliver were highlights for me.

Absolutely shattered with losing in particular the way we lost but Geelong were playing for their season as much as us. We're nearly there just need a bit more composure and we'd be sitting comfortably in the top 4 if not top 2 - 2x games vs Cats, Port and Saints all games we should've won and outplayed our opponents in 3 of them. I understand the anger and frustration last night but big picture we are still on the right track. This is a very good young football side we've got hopefully they figure how to take the step to being great.

As for those wanting Goodwin's head or blaming the loss on him I hope that was said in the heat of emotion after the loss. I have complete faith in the guy but he made an overhaul of his assistants.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

23 hours ago, DemonOX said:

JKH OUT

VANDERS IN even if not match fit would still be better imo than JKH. 

Vanders cannot play this year he's been out for an eternity. Bugg is the obvious replacement hopefully he earns his recall this week.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

22 hours ago, SaberFang said:

Mate, I'd love to believe this. I really would. But I just can't do it to myself after what happened last year. Getting my hopes up only to experience gutwrenching disappointment is infused in the MFC's DNA. I'm just about done enabling it. 

My health is literally suffering as a result. It's a fine line between being obsessed about loving your club and having your life revolve around it to the point of misery. I had to walk out of a party and sit in isolation tonight after Geelong kicked 5 in a row to start that final quarter because I knew exactly what was coming. Why should I put myself through such embarrassing anxiety? 

And of all the [censored] teams, Geelong. Only Essendon would be worse to lose to, honestly.

There's a middle ground between expecting glory or defeat. You can support and see how things unfold instead.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

22 hours ago, CityDee said:

Proud of the boys tonight - little things to work on .

would have moved frost earlier to tomohawk  and evened up the numbers . 

Loosing Twice to geelong who are not that good but have some great senior guys . 

The little things . 

Win both those games vs Cats and we're 3rd and their 13th. Such a fine line, 2 kicks in it.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

22 hours ago, Chook said:

He knows he lost his team the game. At least he cares. Look at what he has written on his wrist. RUN!

He nearly won us the game tonight, and instead he probably lost it for us. It's a tough pill to swallow.

He didn't lose the game. After his torp the ball went out of bounds and we had another scoring shot. There was still too much time to tray and maintain possession and even if he wanted to there didn't seem to be any options.

Maybe you could argue if he doesn't kick that barrel Maxy never goes off with the blood rule and we win but now your starting into alternate reality theories.

Edited July 22, 2018 by Dr. Gonzo

[Watts the matter 1,235]

Max seems to have gotten off here. For the premier ruckman to let Hawkins take it out of the ruck and kick a goal was very very poor. Needs to be better than that.

[Skuit 10,031]

2 hours ago, Hogan2014 said:

Our club is littered with these types of loses & we just can’t seem to stop them! We have gone from a possible top 4 & now lucky to make the 8 ..  I just can’t see the positives... sorry I know the angle your coming from but I’m fed up seeing the cats & the hawks sneak into the 8 after so much success & what we have endured to just miss out again!

I understand the frustration, but the supporters provide the primary unifying element to the ship of Theseus which is a football club. The current team is not the team of a few years ago; so it's really just your memory which is littered with these types of losses which you and other fans perceive we just can't seem to stop.

But the current team did exactly that last year - vs. West Coast, Collingwood and Carlton - after suffering from some tight final quarter defeats against Freo and Hawthorn earlier in the year. We also came back from deficits similar to the one Geelong overhauled yesterday on numerous occasions - with football being a sport of momentum.  

We've had some bad luck this year, but these things can go either way for all teams. No one would argue that the Salem goal after the siren vs the Bombers a few years ago was the result of a well-drilled team which was cool-headed at the finish. We got lucky in an unnatural game environment and immediately forgot every mistake at the death. 

More mature teams like those of Hawthorn and Geelong in recent years are of course more likely to prevail in this atmosphere with greater experience of it. We're not yet a mature team. 

[At Least I Saw a Flag 5,244]

Yes, the Salem goal was pretty similar, although the Geelong goal was done more easily and fewer links in the chain!

I was also reminded of the Montagna goal at Etihad. And the Mcarthey goal for Freo at the G.  

[binman 42,948]

27 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

He didn't lose the game. After his torp the ball went out of bounds and we had another scoring shot. There was still too much time to tray and maintain possession and even if he wanted to there didn't seem to be any options.

 

The bolded bits are true.

And after we did get get in we made a number of mistakes - jeffy should have looked for a pass rather than a shot on goal - even if it meant going backwards, A pass to someone on 50 would have allowed us to eat up 30 seconds. Even if he couldn't find someone another ball up would have been likely given the congestion. Once he elected to go for goal he only had one option - kick the goal.

Then from the kick nu why did we not flood back and get numbers clogging up their 50? And why di Vince spilke the ball away. Given we didn't flood back how did we allow them to transfer it up the corridor. Surely we had to be man on man. Then Frost gets - as RJAY 9i think) - so rightly says, gets caught in no mans land and allows the tic tac. And no one in the hole in front of Touey? Beggars belief.

But all that said i disagree with the unbolded bits. Trac simply had to hold onto the ball as long as possible (the umpire had not called play on when he kicked it)  and then look for a short target. Surely at least one would have been possible - and if not that is another failing. It was only 90 seconds to go. Even one chip kick then the long bomb to to the boundary would have eaten 20 seconds away. Three chip kicks and the long bomb would have iced the game.

Trac looked as if he though t we needed to score not them.

[binman 42,948]

19 hours ago, At the break of Gawn said:

I’m o/s at the moment so I didn’t see the game (just highlights and the last 2 minutes), so I just have two comments.

1. Petracca’s barrel was one of the dumbest pieces of clock mgmt football I’ve ever seen. Ever. I reckon he got scolded pretty bad for that, thus the tears. He had plenty of opportunities to go sideways. All in all it was a horrible last 2 minutes but by god that was awful.

 

 

Agree. Made stranger/worse by his elite basketball background. Basketball 101 is managing the clock and preserving a lead at the death. And rule number 1 is not giving the ball back to the opposition. If you have it they can't score

And you have achieve that by holding it as long as you can yourself before making a pass to team mate who repeats. You don't even take an open shot if it involves giving the ball back with time for the opposition to score and win or draw (which at the elite level can occur even if say 4 points down with only 10 seconds  left - a quick score and a turnover under the basket and you can still draw or even win if one play is a 3 pointer).  Which is what jeffy did.

Trac would have run that scenario a million times in his basketball training. 

[Skuit 10,031]

53 minutes ago, bingers said:

Yes, the Salem goal was pretty similar, although the Geelong goal was done more easily and fewer links in the chain!

I was also reminded of the Montagna goal at Etihad. And the Mcarthey goal for Freo at the G.  

Were you also reminded of us vs. Collingwood last year with Watts on the end of it in open space after two links from half back? 

[Dee Zephyr 19,267]

Maybe someone that was at the game can tell us if Trac has options behind him for a short pass to milk the clock.

From the view on the TV he had no options sideways or forward for a short kick like @Dr. Gonzo posted above. 

If anyone is willing to sit through the last two minutes again you will see the umpire clearly signal play on before Trac kicked the ball.

[Skuit 10,031]

16 minutes ago, Dee Zephyr said:

Maybe someone that was at the game can tell us if Trac has options behind him for a short pass to milk the clock.

From the view on the TV he had no options sideways or forward for a short kick like @Dr. Gonzo posted above. 

If anyone is willing to sit through the last two minutes again you will see the umpire clearly signal play on before Trac kicked the ball.

Exactly how I saw it on the box. Was shocked at first and then admired the endeavour - which got the desired result (and unlike others, I didn't think much of Trac's game overall). Playing for time at Kardinia from the point Trac had it would have been a recipe for disaster (a different disaster) He engineered a stoppage deep in our forward pocket. It was the responsibility of others to then lock it down.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

22 hours ago, —coach— said:

I think Hogan is a [censored] slow learner 

I think he's finding it difficult with TMac back in the side as he now isn't the one focal point. His first 8 or so weeks this year were fantastic and he was being lauded as the future of KPF and a potential AA. He's still young, he's still coming off a horror year last year, he's still contributing. He will improve with age as he enters his peak in a couple of years.

[At the break of Gawn 4,460]

7 hours ago, binman said:

Agree. Made stranger/worse by his elite basketball background. Basketball 101 is managing the clock and preserving a lead at the death. And rule number 1 is not giving the ball back to the opposition. If you have it they can't score

And you have achieve that by holding it as long as you can yourself before making a pass to team mate who repeats. You don't even take an open shot if it involves giving the ball back with time for the opposition to score and win or draw (which at the elite level can occur even if say 4 points down with only 10 seconds  left - a quick score and a turnover under the basket and you can still draw or even win if one play is a 3 pointer).  Which is what jeffy did.

Trac would have run that scenario a million times in his basketball training. 

I’m going to assume it was a rush of blood to the head and that he’ll never do that again. 

[chook fowler 19,459]

15 minutes ago, At the break of Gawn said:

I’m going to assume it was a rush of blood to the head and that he’ll never do that again. 

You can’t assume anything. The problem is we keep making the same mistakes, especially when defending a lead in the last quarter. This is why Kane Cornes has called for Goodwin to develop a hard edge and kick some backsides. 

[beelzebub 23,373]

It's been known for some club's to specifically train to run clocks down.

Totally agree with above b-ball analogy ( having played over 45 years ) you learn every trick in the book to kill seconds. Footy is no different really....it's still about possession.

We just blaze away......like a damaged fighter plane plummeting .

This is where true leadership comes into it. ( I'll have to re-watch the last 2 mins again later...to see where anyone was )  It is actually beholden upon the non kicker to provide options.

[PaulRB 6,363]

It’s all about how they respond next week. Our time to hurt the Cats will come. 

[titan_uranus 25,018]

13 hours ago, Redleg said:

I would have thought all forwards bar perhaps Spargo, would have gone back in the last minute or two, with the mids being told to keep the ball locked in the pack. Surely after so many close losses in the last two years, this should have been ingrained. Obviously not. 

How many of those losses were we the ones protecting the lead, though?

None of the previous ones this year.

Maybe the Fremantle loss last year was the most recent one. So that's two in 18 months.

The rest were us trying to catch up to our opponent but failing to get over the line.

13 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Coaches , Match committees FD personnel are supposed to be 'already arrived' . Players might be a work in progress...but I don't accept that those in charge are on "L's"....if so ... it's just amateur hour all around.

If what is.... is.....is that we're incompetent in areas where you'd think elite players would just know basic footy...ie... running down a clock...ffs that's learnt as a kid...deprive the enemy.  If what is...is  coaching letting Charlie medal players far too much largesse ...if what is ...is a total mismatch in the back 50......if what is ....is having a power forward live out delusions of midfieldery ...if what is...is often having the 'hottest players of the game ' counting sheep on the pine....if what is....is selecting experiments at the business end of the season...then we'll that IS ....us

So Hardwick had "already arrived"? After his 7 years of no premierships, no finals wins and three finals appearances, with a winning percentage under 50%?

How about Buckley, whose record has gotten worse each year until this one?

Clarkson had finished 3 seasons before pinching the 2008 flag, and had finished 7 seasons before Hawthorn became the powerhouse they're now known as.

[Dee Zephyr 19,267]

Again, without knowing if there’s any options behind the kicker it’s in my opinion Trac’s ‘bomb’ was the right play in an attempt to gain a forward 50 stoppage.

Apologies if the pic isn’t very clear, I count 8 Cats between Trac and the 50. I see 5 Melbourne jumpers with only 1 demanding the ball. Umpire’s arms are waving play on with Trac still possessing the ball. 

Edited July 22, 2018 by Dee Zephyr

[Wiseblood 24,637]

31 minutes ago, Dee Zephyr said:

Again, without knowing if there’s any options behind the kicker it’s in my opinion Trac’s ‘bomb’ was the right play in an attempt to gain a forward 50 stoppage.

Apologies if the pic isn’t very clear, I count 8 Cats between Trac and the 50. I see 5 Melbourne jumpers with only 1 demanding the ball. Umpire’s arms are waving play on with Trac still possessing the ball. 

Good post, mate. 

What it highlights is, at this point, Trac has some risky options to look for, but they have a chance of being a turnover that could have been catastrophic. Instead, he took the low risk option and went down the line. It was the right decision, and a mature one as well. 

[number 27 62]

we will make the 8 IMO, there are still some surprise wins to come between now and the end of the season. don't mind scraping into the 8, we could potentially play Geelong first round which I don't mind either

 (the AFL in their wisdom could put it at Geelong)