Playing injured - are we rushing some players back too quickly?

[Wiseblood 24,637]

So I'm not normally one to start threads like this, but I felt like I'd seen a worrying trend over the past few months with players suffering 'mild' injuries, missing either no time or a very small chunk of time, and having their influence on games diminish as a result.  I've highlighted five players here, with two standing out, but there may be other instances I've missed.

Christian Petracca

Averages from his first 5 games, prior to the finger injury, where he missed just 1 week:

23 possessions, 11.2 contested, 3.8 clearances, 3.4 tackles and earned 5 free kicks.

Averages from the following 8 games after the finger injury:

18 possessions, 8 contested, 2.1 clearances, 2.5 tackles, earned only 1 free kick in the last 8 games!

 

Jake Melksham

Averages from the first 11 games of the season, prior to suffering an ankle injury against the Dogs and missing no game time:

15.5 possessions, 7.5 contested, 14 goals (avg. 3 scoring shots a game), just 7 frees against

Last 3 game averages after the injury:

11.3 possessions, 3.3 contested, 2 goals (avg. 1.3 scoring shots a game), already given 7 frees against in 3 games.

 

Tom McDonald

While this is only a one game sample, so averages wouldn't work as much, he did have his worst game for the year on the weekend.  Prior to the Saints game he has kicked 2 or more goals in every game (1 on the weekend), had double digit possessions in each (only 8 on the weekend, just 4 contested) and we all know his impact was severely limited after his injury against Port Adelaide.

 

The other two are Oscar McDonald and Nev Jetta - both have suffered head knocks a few weeks ago and, while their stats don't show anything major, they have both come up in recent times as having less impact and influence on games, where prior to this Nev was being talked up as an AA selection and Oscar was lauded for his improvement.  Both have fallen away over the last few games, although you could also attribute that to what's been happening up the field as well.

Now, all this could be just coincidental, but I do think there is enough proof to possibly suggest that we may not be giving some players time to get over their injuries.  Petracca, Melksham and Tom McDonald were all in doubt prior to the games they played in - should they have been given more time and did we rush them back too soon? I know they are important cogs in our side, but should we have considered this more to ensure they got more out of themselves through the season?

The bottom line to me is that these five players are crucial to how we play, and in recent times their influence has waned, and this can be linked back to the injuries they suffered.  While it's nothing to rant and rave about, it is something to consider, and hopefully Dave Misson and his team are able to help in getting these guys back to full fitness to allow them to have the impact and influence we need going forward in our push to break the finals drought.

[SFebes 4,884]

Could also argue Viney wasn’t ready and also Max getting belted in one game with a knock to the ribs, took a couple of weeks to come good again and Hannan recently going for scans and hasn’t played well since also.

Theres definitely some coincidence there.

[Skuit 10,031]

I think you can add Hunt from last year after a head-knock in Adelaide and some others that escape me right now. This thread will no doubt descend into a Jack Viney 2017 finger-pointing session, but these smaller examples are of interest and have been on my mind also. Had a very strong feeling going into the Saints that Tomald wouldn't offer much. It may be my imagination, but I'm thinking it already happened once this year with Tom - under a cloud and a significantly reduced impact the following game. 

Are we relying too much on self-reporting and basic fitness tests? I think it was against Port where at one stage Petracca grabbed at his finger. It doesn't take much for a player to be a little down on body confidence or clear-thinking, but with the speed of the game it can have a serious impact on output. The problem is, the poor form can continue after the cloud has cleared due to the extra hit to confidence. I assume players are also put on light duties if under a cloud throughout the week - so not going through the optimal training regime before match-day. 

[kev martin 9,888]

1 hour ago, Skuit said:

Are we relying too much on self-reporting and basic fitness tests?

At this stage in the season the players should be 100%. If a bit doubtful then rest them. It gives others the opportunity to play and the team to understand and gel with new players. For finals, if we make them, then it could be different.

Placing too much pressure on retaining your place or getting back into the side causes self reporting to become unreliable. No one is really irreplaceable at this stage. Although we may lose something with cohesion we gain through understanding our flexibility and dealing with injuries. The player gets to see the team as a spectator which gives them another perspective and could help them in understanding game strategies and team mates styles and skills.

[DV8 2,271]

4 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

So I'm not normally one to start threads like this, but I felt like I'd seen a worrying trend over the past few months with players suffering 'mild' injuries, missing either no time or a very small chunk of time, and having their influence on games diminish as a result.  I've highlighted five players here, with two standing out, but there may be other instances I've missed.

Christian Petracca

Averages from his first 5 games, prior to the finger injury, where he missed just 1 week:

23 possessions, 11.2 contested, 3.8 clearances, 3.4 tackles and earned 5 free kicks.

Averages from the following 8 games after the finger injury:

18 possessions, 8 contested, 2.1 clearances, 2.5 tackles, earned only 1 free kick in the last 8 games!

 

Jake Melksham

Averages from the first 11 games of the season, prior to suffering an ankle injury against the Dogs and missing no game time:

15.5 possessions, 7.5 contested, 14 goals (avg. 3 scoring shots a game), just 7 frees against

Last 3 game averages after the injury:

11.3 possessions, 3.3 contested, 2 goals (avg. 1.3 scoring shots a game), already given 7 frees against in 3 games.

 

Tom McDonald

While this is only a one game sample, so averages wouldn't work as much, he did have his worst game for the year on the weekend.  Prior to the Saints game he has kicked 2 or more goals in every game (1 on the weekend), had double digit possessions in each (only 8 on the weekend, just 4 contested) and we all know his impact was severely limited after his injury against Port Adelaide.

 

The other two are Oscar McDonald and Nev Jetta - both have suffered head knocks a few weeks ago and, while their stats don't show anything major, they have both come up in recent times as having less impact and influence on games, where prior to this Nev was being talked up as an AA selection and Oscar was lauded for his improvement.  Both have fallen away over the last few games, although you could also attribute that to what's been happening up the field as well.

Now, all this could be just coincidental, but I do think there is enough proof to possibly suggest that we may not be giving some players time to get over their injuries.  Petracca, Melksham and Tom McDonald were all in doubt prior to the games they played in - should they have been given more time and did we rush them back too soon? I know they are important cogs in our side, but should we have considered this more to ensure they got more out of themselves through the season?

The bottom line to me is that these five players are crucial to how we play, and in recent times their influence has waned, and this can be linked back to the injuries they suffered.  While it's nothing to rant and rave about, it is something to consider, and hopefully Dave Misson and his team are able to help in getting these guys back to full fitness to allow them to have the impact and influence we need going forward in our push to break the finals drought.

To me It depends on circumstances.

Jetta has had some heavy collisions this year, to both body, and to his head.

Oscar I'm unaware of his hits.

But TMc and Viney & Maxy, were concerns last year, and IMO we rushed them back to soon last year,,,  which impacted them well into the start of this 2018 season.

The flow on of a strong fitness base from one season into the next, is a fantastic thing.

But also the flow on of injuries from one season into the next season, is just as opposing.

 

This week I really hope we rest some including, our tallest.  Having them refreshed for the next game.

[jumbo returns 6,741]

4 hours ago, DV8 said:

To me It depends on circumstances.

Jetta has had some heavy collisions this year, to both body, and to his head.

Oscar I'm unaware of his hits.

But TMc and Viney & Maxy, were concerns last year, and IMO we rushed them back to soon last year,,,  which impacted them well into the start of this 2018 season.

The flow on of a strong fitness base from one season into the next, is a fantastic thing.

But also the flow on of injuries from one season into the next season, is just as opposing.

 

This week I really hope we rest some including, our tallest.  Having them refreshed for the next game.

Can't rest Max

Knowing full well MFCSS, Freo will pluck some rookie ruckman outta the blue that will murder us

[FarNorthernD 5,861]

You can probably add Pedersen to that list as well. Was ripping it up in the VFL, got concussed, was promoted to the seniors and then played like a bloke who was concussed the previous week.

And then there was Viney from last year....

[DV8 2,271]

5 hours ago, jumbo returns said:

Can't rest Max

Knowing full well MFCSS, Freo will pluck some rookie ruckman outta the blue that will murder us

We don't need to win the taps in Darwin, as the ball will be mostly on the Dek during the course of the game anyway.

What we do need is more running power with agility, and that suits Pedo, TMc, Frost, and Weide in the ruck.

I think Weide will do very well in this role, if we maintain him.

 

Do you not think we need fresh players for the games after Darwin ?

 

IMO, we need to save some players from this game so they're fresh the weeks after.

So I think we will bring in a number of fresh faces this week.

 

Q/? on Gawn, if the selectors will show the balls to do that?

IN's for me are:  Stretch, Frost, Deck, Spargo, Garlett, Baker.

Unsure Re Vince whether to bring him in for Darwin, or the following week against those Bullies.

 

Keep Lewis in this week, with the young defence.  Before resting him against the Dogs.  Vince will play against the Doggies.

[DeleteUser 638]

20 minutes ago, DV8 said:

 

Do you not think we need fresh players for the games after Darwin ?

 

Your thesis (and I am not trying to be personally offensive or unnecessarily argumentative) turns on the fact we can win in Darwin v Freo without Max. And we should not include Max as it may be greasy/don't need taps/etc.

I have said that it is all academic if we lose and that we need him. You think the style of play will not suit him/our set up with him. I think things are beyond dire and if we lose, subsequent rounds are meaningless as it's all over for the MFC18.

Further, whilst a team is not one person (unless it was MFC V SKFC last week), I would posit our odds of winning are substantially improved with Max there, whatever your thoughts as to how the game will be played. I'd have thought he offers more than just tap work.

On the weather front, it's going to be approx 22-24C at 7.30 on Saturday in Darwin. RH at 3PM is 27%. It's mid winter. Heat index at 25C and 25% humidity is low (72). Dew point 11C at 3PM. Chance of rain 5% (average 1.1mm for July). Light breeze ESE, light onshore wind by 6PM.

Are we super confident it will be greasy? Are we willing to risk a possible loss by not including Max because it may be greasy?

Max will play, and we need him to play. I get your logic, I just don't think we can risk it. Max is fit. Manage him in game (play across the backline or wherever) and rest on bench if things are looking ok in prep for dogs.

Edited July 4, 2018 by timbo

[Nasher 33,613]

If the MFC rest Max, they’ll be resting me as well as I won’t watch if the club isn’t fair dinkum about winning.

Fortunately I’ll never need to deliver on this idle threat, because the probability of this happening is zero.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Let's not forget the playing of Oliver, even though he had an operation on his hand earlier that same week.  As well as Lewis and Salem coming back after a week off from hand/thumb surgery.

As a side note with the Oliver situation, in particular how they said he missed his flight.  Was the club taking the pi$$ with the excuse of the collectors not being able to take the pi$$?

[beelzebub 23,352]

Its a very interesting question....with many  fascinating thoughts.

Im not really sure what to make of it all to tell the truth but it's very hard to look away. Some odd, ( more bizarre ) selections and inclusions at times that just fly in the face of what might otherwise be called 'prudent'

I really don't give any credence to practically all of the 'noise' that emanates from the club about players

on more than one occasion I've thought..."why is such and such playing?"  Seemingly so have many others.

[Satyriconhome 10,871]

Nev split his lip and Oscar had a mild concussion, both ok, team defence had the ball coming into one on one contests last weekend, nothing ttp do with being rushed back

Salem and Petracca their form is just yoyoing, they are both fully fit, same with Melksham, watch them train fully, just not bringing it game day

Tommy Mc and Hogan just not gelling in the last couple of weeks

[Ethan Tremblay 30,856]

Hopefully Nev is fully over his head knock from the previous week. He’s been huge down back. 

[Young Blood 2,620]

1 hour ago, Nasher said:

If the MFC rest Max, they’ll be resting me as well as I won’t watch if the club isn’t fair dinkum about winning.

Fortunately I’ll never need to deliver on this idle threat, because the probability of this happening is zero.

I'll happily join you. You rest a player when he is looking tired or down on form. Max is neither of those. He is in cracking form and trained himself up perfectly at the start of the year for the very aim of getting through a whole season and playing effectively.

[DeleteUser 638]

29 minutes ago, Yung Blood said:

I'll happily join you. You rest a player when he is looking tired or down on form. Max is neither of those. He is in cracking form and trained himself up perfectly at the start of the year for the very aim of getting through a whole season and playing effectively.

This. Look how weaponised he looks. He'll probably turn up and play 300 minutes have 67 possessions carry the whole team (again) this week whilst worrying about absurdities if he packed his beard cream for Bundy and Cokes at the pub after (Yo Byoe-tee!)

Legend

[Wiseblood 24,637]

18 hours ago, Skuit said:

I think you can add Hunt from last year after a head-knock in Adelaide and some others that escape me right now. This thread will no doubt descend into a Jack Viney 2017 finger-pointing session, but these smaller examples are of interest and have been on my mind also. Had a very strong feeling going into the Saints that Tomald wouldn't offer much. It may be my imagination, but I'm thinking it already happened once this year with Tom - under a cloud and a significantly reduced impact the following game. 

Are we relying too much on self-reporting and basic fitness tests? I think it was against Port where at one stage Petracca grabbed at his finger. It doesn't take much for a player to be a little down on body confidence or clear-thinking, but with the speed of the game it can have a serious impact on output. The problem is, the poor form can continue after the cloud has cleared due to the extra hit to confidence. I assume players are also put on light duties if under a cloud throughout the week - so not going through the optimal training regime before match-day. 

Hunt is another one I missed, even though it was last season.  He was tearing it up in the first part of 2017, got the concussion and played on.  He's never been the same player.  I know that the injury isn't the whole cause, but I think most would find it hard to deny it had an impact.

I don't want this to focus on Viney either as I believe he was mostly to blame.  He wanted to come back, pushed himself and paid the price for it.  No doubt Misson and the like could have come down harder on him, but I think most of the blame lies at Viney's feet on that one.

5 hours ago, Nasher said:

If the MFC rest Max, they’ll be resting me as well as I won’t watch if the club isn’t fair dinkum about winning.

Fortunately I’ll never need to deliver on this idle threat, because the probability of this happening is zero.

No chance we rest Maxy.  Resting wasn't the point of the thread, either, so I'm not sure why some went that route.  Gawny is fighting fit and smashing them, so let's make sure we keep it that way!

4 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

Nev split his lip and Oscar had a mild concussion, both ok, team defence had the ball coming into one on one contests last weekend, nothing ttp do with being rushed back

Salem and Petracca their form is just yoyoing, they are both fully fit, same with Melksham, watch them train fully, just not bringing it game day

Tommy Mc and Hogan just not gelling in the last couple of weeks

I wouldn't say Petracca's form has been up and down - he's been down pretty much since the finger injury.  Same goes for Melksham.  They might be training fully but that doesn't tell the whole story.  Their is a correlation to be made between their dip in form and the injuries they suffered prior.  Others have made mention of injuries to others over the last 18 months as well (Hunt being a good example).  

[DV8 2,271]

7 hours ago, timbo said:

Your thesis (and I am not trying to be personally offensive or unnecessarily argumentative) turns on the fact we can win in Darwin v Freo without Max. And we should not include Max as it may be greasy/don't need taps/etc.

I have said that it is all academic if we lose and that we need him. You think the style of play will not suit him/our set up with him. I think things are beyond dire and if we lose, subsequent rounds are meaningless as it's all over for the MFC18.

Further, whilst a team is not one person (unless it was MFC V SKFC last week), I would posit our odds of winning are substantially improved with Max there, whatever your thoughts as to how the game will be played. I'd have thought he offers more than just tap work.

On the weather front, it's going to be approx 22-24C at 7.30 on Saturday in Darwin. RH at 3PM is 27%. It's mid winter. Heat index at 25C and 25% humidity is low (72). Dew point 11C at 3PM. Chance of rain 5% (average 1.1mm for July). Light breeze ESE, light onshore wind by 6PM.

Are we super confident it will be greasy? Are we willing to risk a possible loss by not including Max because it may be greasy?

Max will play, and we need him to play. I get your logic, I just don't think we can risk it. Max is fit. Manage him in game (play across the backline or wherever) and rest on bench if things are looking ok in prep for dogs.

 

You got it wrong again Timbo.   The thesis, (what a stupid word for footy) is about performing well after Darwin (against Doggies) and the following games.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

NOW   I don't think we'll lose at all in Darwin; I think we'll win this week; and also, I think for Darwin games, we Should bring in a few players, so as to rest players from this DARWIN games humidity,,, because the problems with the humidity and the dehydrating effects, carry over for nearly a fortnight.

 

It is the opportune time to bring in players while we rest some against the dehydration, for our seasons well-being.

Especially this week, as Vandenberg and McKenna are coming back to play for Casey.   They need the spots open.

 

So we have Pedo in great form, Dec Keilty, Frost, Stretch, Spargo is ready again, Garlett, Baker, Vince...   although I wonder if its best to bring Vince back in fresh,,, after the Darwin game.

 

Bring Vince in fresh for Rnd 17_  as we will be needing fresh runners for the Doggies.   Our team will be a bit sluggish following Darwins heat & humidity.  And Lewis may be ready for a rest at this time, against the Dogs.

 

[In Harmes Way 7,768]

If Lever plays before the end of the year, I’ll definitely agree with WB’s position.

[D4Life 2,469]

Agree with premise of the thread, we’ve rushed in or kept in players who should have missed a week.

TMac

Jetta

Petracca

Melksham 

OMac

& Pedo promoted after concussion 

and players do carry injuries, but seems like it has backfired on us!

[DeleteUser 638]

.

Edited July 4, 2018 by timbo
Pointless

[DV8 2,271]

7 minutes ago, timbo said:

Again? When was I wrong the first time?

I get what you're saying I just happen to disagree - that doesn't mean I am wrong it means I have a different opinion

your thesis (choose another word if it bothers you so much) - is predicated on a win this week and I can only base comments on the words you write

 

My thesis if that's what you want to call it, is about the rest of our season, and us being in good condition. Not about the Darwin game.

But about selections this week for the rest of our season.

 

Key players will need to be fully fit, and NOT sapped by Darwin's conditions.

Maxy Is one of our Key players, especially after his 11 mark game last week.. we don't need him this week, because of the Darwin conditions.

So this is the best way to keep him fresh.

And we are only 8 weeks out from finals, so his condition needs to be kept healthy.

 

We can rotate 3 or 4 through the ruck this week if we want to.  Not including Maxy.