Delisting, Trade and FA discussion 2018

[Dippy 17]

12 hours ago, Lord Neville X Flash said:

Hogan was not a trade for May and KK. Hogan was worth more than pick 6 and 23, that part of the trade freo got the better deal. 

However, pick 6 for May and KK was a steal, and GC got unders. 

Yes hogan was traded for may and kk. They are all linked together. MFC wouldn't of traded hogan,  if may and kk wasn't coming back in. 

Hogan is only worth what someone is willing to buy for him. Nother else. 6 and 23 is very fair, for someone who doesn't want to be there anymore, and wants to go home. 

Mfc is very well this trade period. 

[Lord Neville X Flash 281]

17 minutes ago, Dippy said:

Yes hogan was traded for may and kk. They are all linked together. MFC wouldn't of traded hogan,  if may and kk wasn't coming back in. 

Hogan is only worth what someone is willing to buy for him. Nother else. 6 and 23 is very fair, for someone who doesn't want to be there anymore, and wants to go home. 

Mfc is very well this trade period. 

They were categorically two seperate trades. MFC did okay, Hawthorne and Fremantle did the best of all the clubs. 

[Lord Neville X Flash 281]

7 hours ago, mauriesy said:

I don't think trading players futures and livelihoods is like some poker hand that you leave concealed with a straight face.

You do it in good faith to get the overall result you want. Jesse wanted to go home for strong personal reasons and we respected his needs and facilitated it. In return we got some advantageous picks that improved our side, and a good future trading reputation.

I don't care whether they were "overs" or "unders", I only care that we will be a better team in 2019 and beyond, given Jesse's circumstances.

It was also blindingly obvious what we needed to do to get May (i.e. a first round pick), given that other clubs were interested.

It is actually is exactly like poker. A list manger from another team refused to answer  question saying "I can't answer that as it will give away our hand" on traderadio. 

I think we did just okay, and to go around saying we had an amazing trade period is wrong. Jesse hogan was a "straight flush" and we got 5 & 23 for him. Like it or not hogan is worth more than that

[rjay 24,928]

12 hours ago, Lord Neville X Flash said:

In my opinion we showed our hand by admitting that we needed Hogan out to get May

I don't buy this line of argument...I've seen it posted by a few people on here and it just doesn't hold up.

Whether Mahoney spoke the words or not the hand was sitting on the table for all to see.

Even "Blind Freddie" could see that the Hogan & May deals were intertwined.

You think Freo couldn't see it?

[spirit of norm smith 16,461]

Any delisted free agents being considered? Mav Weller? Perhaps he supports midfield depth.

[DemonLad5 1,642]

Like Hartung as a lifeline 

[Lord Neville X Flash 281]

9 minutes ago, rjay said:

I don't buy this line of argument...I've seen it posted by a few people on here and it just doesn't hold up.

Whether Mahoney spoke the words or not the hand was sitting on the table for all to see.

Even "Blind Freddie" could see that the Hogan & May deals were intertwined.

You think Freo couldn't see it?

If we had publicly stated that we were trying to get May without selling hogan, or at least made no comment the narrative around the situation would have been very different. Would freo have bought it? Who knows. But surely worth a try imo.

Winning a flag is that hard, we need to maximise every area of the club, including dealing hard at the trade table. 

[rjay 24,928]

4 minutes ago, Lord Neville X Flash said:

If we had publicly stated that we were trying to get May without selling hogan, or at least made no comment the narrative around the situation would have been very different. Would freo have bought it? Who knows. But surely worth a try imo.

Winning a flag is that hard, we need to maximise every area of the club, including dealing hard at the trade table. 

Mahoney doesn't seem like the type to waste his time on pointless games.

We could have played harder at the trade table & had an unhappy Hogan with us next season.

As you say winning a flag is hard, too hard to be carrying a kid who is going through a lot & doesn't want to be there. I'm not sure he is very clear on what he wants but that's for Ross to sort out now.

As an aside, it's going to be interesting to see how Geelong go with Tim Kelly. They played it hard & the coach even called him out as being as a Scully. I have a feeling that it might all end in tears.

[Lucifers Hero 39,818]

11 minutes ago, rjay said:

Mahoney doesn't seem like the type to waste his time on pointless games.

We could have played harder at the trade table & had an unhappy Hogan with us next season.

As you say winning a flag is hard, too hard to be carrying a kid who is going through a lot & doesn't want to be there. I'm not sure he is very clear on what he wants but that's for Ross to sort out now.

As an aside, it's going to be interesting to see how Geelong go with Tim Kelly. They played it hard & the coach even called him out as being as a Scully. I have a feeling that it might all end in tears.

Poor form by Scott.  But in character!

Apparently Kelly is on draftee wages - not much at anytime let alone for a family of 5.  WCE offered him a decent package.  I don't recall the figure but the AFL average is around $350K.  Hardly 'a Scully' if he went to WCE for somewhere around the average.  

It would behove Geelong to look after Kelly financially and revisit the $ in his contract for next year - after all he did come 2nd in their b n f and got them to finals.

Edited October 17, 2018 by Lucifer's Hero

[rjay 24,928]

3 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Poor form by Scott.  But in character!

“There’s only two scenarios: He’s either a very good actor, or he’s going to stay,” Scott told SEN’s Whateley.

[Lucifers Hero 39,818]

3 minutes ago, rjay said:

“There’s only two scenarios: He’s either a very good actor, or he’s going to stay,” Scott told SEN’s Whateley.

Callous by Scott.

How different is that to how other teams handled requests for trade.  Helped the player and did a fair trade rather than dig their heals in and keep asking for more.

They haven't improved their team much during the trade, their best are getting older so maybe karma will keep them paddling around in the middle of the ladder!

[Lord Neville X Flash 281]

1 hour ago, rjay said:

Mahoney doesn't seem like the type to waste his time on pointless games.

We could have played harder at the trade table & had an unhappy Hogan with us next season.

As you say winning a flag is hard, too hard to be carrying a kid who is going through a lot & doesn't want to be there. I'm not sure he is very clear on what he wants but that's for Ross to sort out now.

As an aside, it's going to be interesting to see how Geelong go with Tim Kelly. They played it hard & the coach even called him out as being as a Scully. I have a feeling that it might all end in tears.

I would have liked melbourne to have negotiated harder, and then accept 5 & 23 in the last minute if that was the best offer. Anyway, it's hard to know what the circumstance were behind closed doors. 

Like i said, we did okay, a par. But we didn't dominate the trade period like essedon last year, or freo and hawthorn this year.

[Gator 17,361]

1 hour ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Apparently Kelly is on draftee wages - not much at anytime let alone for a family of 5.  WCE offered him a decent package.  I don't recall the figure but the AFL average is around $350K.  Hardly 'a Scully' if he went to WCE for somewhere around the average.  

It would behove Geelong to look after Kelly financially and revisit the $ in his contract for next year - after all he did come 2nd in their b n f and got them to finals.

What a rubbish post. 

[ManDee 7,150]

I think where I differ from some is that I view the trade period as a tool not a competition. I feel it is where you go to make your team better to facilitate player movement that may be beyond your control but with the ultimate aim to come away a better team than you enter the trade period. I think if each trade is viewed as a competition the risk is potentially missing out on the ultimate goal of becoming a better team. We would all like to win every trade but sometimes we need to step back and see the big picture. Ask some questions, will this help us to make our team better? Is it the best we can do now? If yes do it.

[beelzebub 23,377]

Just now, ManDee said:

I think where I differ from some is that I view the trade period as a tool not a competition. I feel it is where you go to make your team better to facilitate player movement that may be beyond your control but with the ultimate aim to come away a better team than you enter the trade period. I think if each trade is viewed as a competition the risk is potentially missing out on the ultimate goal of becoming a better team. We would all like to win every trade but sometimes we need to step back and see the big picture. Ask some questions, will this help us to make our team better? Is it the best we can do now? If yes do it.

nailed it 

[Megatron 886]

15 hours ago, Lord Neville X Flash said:

Hogan was not a trade for May and KK. Hogan was worth more than pick 6 and 23, that part of the trade freo got the better deal. 

However, pick 6 for May and KK was a steal, and GC got unders. 

Wowwweeeee!!!

[Red and Blue Flame 187]

I make it 7 spots left on primary list - May and KK brought it to 33. You're allowed 40 + 4 rookies.

picks 23,28,54,62,91 is 5 draft picks....so there's 2 extra spots?

one rookie position currently available with/if they remain rookies: maynard, smith and keilty.

 

 

 

[DeeSpencer 25,713]

2 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Poor form by Scott.  But in character!

Apparently Kelly is on draftee wages - not much at anytime let alone for a family of 5.  WCE offered him a decent package.  I don't recall the figure but the AFL average is around $350K.  Hardly 'a Scully' if he went to WCE for somewhere around the average.  

It would behove Geelong to look after Kelly financially and revisit the $ in his contract for next year - after all he did come 2nd in their b n f and got them to finals.

He was and is still on the draftee wage scale. Best part of 100k per year plus 5k a game. 

He made 190k last year and will make over 200k if he plays every game this year. Unless those kids eat caviar they’ll be fine.

The Eagles offered him 600k from 2020 on. They can’t change his draftee deal.

The question should be whether he had to be drafted at all given he missed out in about 4 drafts. But given he was the Cats and Eagles operate under the rules they’ve been given 

 

Edited October 17, 2018 by DeeSpencer

[mauriesy 7,298]

1 hour ago, Lord Neville X Flash said:

I would have liked melbourne to have negotiated harder, and then accept 5 & 23 in the last minute if that was the best offer.

What makes you think they didn't? They left the Hogan trade until 3.00 on the last day!

[drdrake 3,178]

The best thing about picks we 54 and 61ish, basically these picks will move 8 to 10 spots forward as the pies, north, bulldogs and Sydney have stockpiled picks between 30 and 50 for academy and fs picks.  

[old55 23,590]

5 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

He was and is still on the draftee wage scale. Best part of 100k per year plus 5k a game. 

He made 190k last year and will make over 200k if he plays every game this year. Unless those kids eat caviar they’ll be fine.

The Eagles offered him 600k from 2020 on. They can’t change his draftee deal.

The question should be whether he had to be drafted at all given he missed out in about 4 drafts. But given he was the Cats and Eagles operate under the rules they’ve been given 

 

This is an excellent point.  Kelly is a unique position - at Geelong in his 2nd year after being drafted he's locked into the mandatory AFL draftee pay scale and he's not going to sign an extension at Geelong because he wants to leave.  At WC next year he'd still be locked into the same 2nd year amount but in the future years of the extended contract they are going to give him they could pay overs each year to make up for his mandated low wage next year.  I can see why he wanted to move now and would be [censored] off stuck at Geelong on low wages vs his output..

[DeeSpencer 25,713]

1 hour ago, Fifty-5 said:

This is an excellent point.  Kelly is a unique position - at Geelong in his 2nd year after being drafted he's locked into the mandatory AFL draftee pay scale and he's not going to sign an extension at Geelong because he wants to leave.  At WC next year he'd still be locked into the same 2nd year amount but in the future years of the extended contract they are going to give him they could pay overs each year to make up for his mandated low wage next year.  I can see why he wanted to move now and would be [censored] off stuck at Geelong on low wages vs his output..

Exactly. You can see why clubs traded their pre agent (guys 1 year removed from free agency) players. The uncertainty benefits no one. Geelong are willing to wait it out because he's young and healthy and whilst they lose leverage he can increase his value with another amazing season. Plus they want to win games! Does Kelly give his absolute all or does he get through to about mid year and start counting down the days until he's back to Perth?

[Slartibartfast 17,296]

8 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Exactly. You can see why clubs traded their pre agent (guys 1 year removed from free agency) players. The uncertainty benefits no one. Geelong are willing to wait it out because he's young and healthy and whilst they lose leverage he can increase his value with another amazing season. Plus they want to win games! Does Kelly give his absolute all or does he get through to about mid year and start counting down the days until he's back to Perth?

If he has another good year that won't help much if he insists on going to WCE because try as they might they won't have the picks to offer.  It's hard to see how they can offer much more next year than they did this year. 

[old55 23,590]

9 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Exactly. You can see why clubs traded their pre agent (guys 1 year removed from free agency) players. The uncertainty benefits no one. Geelong are willing to wait it out because he's young and healthy and whilst they lose leverage he can increase his value with another amazing season. Plus they want to win games! Does Kelly give his absolute all or does he get through to about mid year and start counting down the days until he's back to Perth?

I think they've taken a big risk with a potentially unhappy player with an unhappy wife.  But then again they do think they are still in the window with Ablett in his last year and other stars around 30 now so they really have no choice but to go for it next year - they are still topping up in this trade period.  I think they are deluded.  I hope they are too.

[Slartibartfast 17,296]

2 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

I think they've taken a big risk with a potentially unhappy player with an unhappy wife.  But then again they do think they are still in the window with Ablett in his last year and other stars around 30 now so they really have no choice but to go for it next year - they are still topping up in this trade period.  I think they are deluded.  I hope they are too.

I agree with all that but you'd be very disappointed if you were a Cat's supporter.