Good Win? ... I don't know...

[John Crow Batty 8,861]

Going back to the North game in Hobart it took no genius to see how the game would end wind or no wind. The weak way we play against flaky opposition is etched in stone and hasn’t changed for the past three seasons. The problem is beyond the scope of coaching, personnel and tactics. Time to sort out the leadership problem with some toughness. Firstly get rid of Jones as captain as we can’t be any worse without him leading. Give it to Viney and deputise someone else. I hope Jones will understand.

Edited September 26, 2017 by america de cali

[The Chazz 4,077]

In a season where we continually fielded the top 3 or 4 youngest teams week in, week out, and to be in the finals with 5 minutes to go of the entire season, I think we have probably performed above where we are at.  Might only be a level above, but still above.

This season was one of the most peculiar and even seasons I remember.  Yes, we definitely had some "Melbourne" losses, but we also had some very "un-Melbourne" wins.  The domination of Adelaide in Adelaide, and the way we fought back and beat West Coast in Perth are two that I was unfamiliar with.

The Hobart game, as frustrating as it was to lose, I just can't see how Goodwin gets the blame for this.  We played well with the wind in the 2nd quarter, does anyone really think the directive in the last was to change the way we played it?  The players just did a "Melbourne" thing - thinking they just stroll out and it happens.  It doesn't, and it didn't.  Reality is, none of us were in the huddle at 3/4 time to know what was said, but I think it's an easy way out to lay blame on the coach.

Watching the Brownlow last night was good to revisit some of the bizarre results from season 17.  Geelong lost to Collingwood, the Gold Coast then Essendon in consecutive weeks.  Adelaide got flogged by North at the very venue that we lost to them at.  Sydney lost their first 6 games, half of which were against sides that finished in the bottom 9.

Just on the Sydney start to the season, they proved more than anyone just how much impact injuries to key personnel can hurt.  It's no coincidence that when they got continuity in their team, and their better players were fully fit, they started performing well.  We, more than a majority of teams, need a clear run with injuries, and there is without doubt a number of games that injuries cost us the game.  But further to that, it wasn't just the injury list, it was when those injuries occurred that killed us.  We were clearly dominating the Geelong game before Gawn went down.  We had 18 fit blokes for a half when we lost to Richmond.  It's not only the time of the game when we lost these guys, it's also the position they play.  Injuries are part of the game, and happen to all teams, but it's easier to cover an in-game injury if it's to a mid-tier midfielder, or a wing, half forward, etc, but when it's a key player like a ruck (which happened in both the Geelong and Richmond examples), it really stretches your structures.  Again, I think in these situations, the coaching staff worked admirably.

I won't cover the suspensions too much, other than to say that there were 2 or 3 games that I think would've gone our way if we didn't have them.  Goodwin's challenge in this area is making sure that the players continue to play on the edge, but understand how much room they have got on that edge.

Goodwin easily gets a pass for mine.  His next challenge in my view is to reduce the amount of "Melbourne" losses next year.  I can easily think of 6 games that with an ounce of luck (whether through injury, suspension, or having those "Melbourne" moments), we should've won.  We don't have to improve much for those results to go our way next year, but fortunately, Goodwin will be striving to improve more than that.  I do acknowledge that all teams are in that same boat.

While the pain of 2017 is still burning for me, I look forward going in to 2018 with an expectation of playing finals, and knowing that if we can get a reasonable rub of the green, that anything is possible.

[Tony Tea 2,806]

I sincerely hope there is more to Goodwin that tricks like the diamond defence.

The way we dismantled the Dogs makes me confident Goodwin appreciates AFL level intensity.

The way we finished the year leaves me pessimistic we have been sussed.

Either way, we need more talent and development.

(And I still maintain we are better than Richmond.)

[beelzebub 23,313]

28 minutes ago, america de cali said:

Going back to the North game in Hobart it took no genius to see how the game would end wind or no wind. The weak way we play against flaky opposition is etched in stone and hasn’t changed for the past three seasons. The problem is beyond the scope of coaching, personnel and tactics. Time to sort out the leadership problem with some toughness. Firstly get rid of Jones as captain as we can’t be any worse without him leading. Give it to Viney and deputise someone else. I hope Jones will understand.

Just a quick note on this..I doubt he would. he seemed to most certainly have his nose out of joint when Viney was made co-captain.

If at all possible  I too would like to see Jones hand over the mantle  and generously allow the team to evolve to where it will.As valiant a player I dont think he that man for this job going forward.

( much reading of posts still to go)  

very interesting thread . Thanks RPFC

[mo64 5,853]

Interesting read RPFC, but I fear that our supporters will give Goodwin the same treatment that Carlton and Essendon gave Ratten and Knights. Such an in-depth analysis should have been written about Roos' 3 year tenure at the club. IMO, Roos was given a free ride by a large percentage on here simply because of the spin he was able to generate in the media.

Goodwin is a 1st year coach who will continue to learn. My expectations were to play finals, so in that respect, I could barely give Goodwin a pass. But we had a horrible run with injuries and suspensions to key players. Tactically, I found him to be more innovative than Roos, but team selection was just as puzzling as it was under Roos.

The issues of leadership should have been addressed by Roos. He was the experienced premiership winning coach who we were paying over a $1m a year. 

Long term, I have faith that Goodwin will become a successful senior coach. I just hope that he doesn't become the media spin-doctor which was Roos.

 

[rpfc 28,261]

1 hour ago, mo64 said:

Interesting read RPFC, but I fear that our supporters will give Goodwin the same treatment that Carlton and Essendon gave Ratten and Knights. Such an in-depth analysis should have been written about Roos' 3 year tenure at the club. IMO, Roos was given a free ride by a large percentage on here simply because of the spin he was able to generate in the media.

Goodwin is a 1st year coach who will continue to learn. My expectations were to play finals, so in that respect, I could barely give Goodwin a pass. But we had a horrible run with injuries and suspensions to key players. Tactically, I found him to be more innovative than Roos, but team selection was just as puzzling as it was under Roos.

The issues of leadership should have been addressed by Roos. He was the experienced premiership winning coach who we were paying over a $1m a year. 

Long term, I have faith that Goodwin will become a successful senior coach. I just hope that he doesn't become the media spin-doctor which was Roos.

 

I would argue that Roos left a vacuum because others didn't step into the breach they should have stepped into. And Roos got a pass from me because of the basket case he inherited, and the list he had to transform.

He truly was the greatest caretaker coach in the history of the game, and not much more.

[beelzebub 23,313]

Again it's an interesting thread . A subject I broached with RPFC a little while ago as he seemed to , like myself have a couple of reservations about how the team's been coached in 207 and that Goodwin like any of the players is in fairness subject to review.

There will always be the inclination of some to edge towards polarisation. Either he's good, or he's bad. All very black and white but this Melbourne and we ought to do things differently.

When approaching a subject as coaching and indeed its main protagonist  Goodwin I suppose there are many level of metrics one can ( and ought ) apply. I would think the overbearing barometer is: are we any better ? I think we are. Many will roll out the barrow  hauling injuries  and suspensions as a sort of cause failalible. So what's been good , what's been fair to midly ?  what's been somewhat regrettable ?

It was suggested by powers upon high that this season ( 2017 ) we would play finals. we missed it by a cats whisker but truth be told  that may well have saved us an embarrassment of sorts. In the context of season achievement how should we  judge the coach? It's his first season !!  give him some slack!! might be sentiments echoing around AAMI. It is however not as if he has stepped in off the street and taken up the baton. He's been around a whiles and will have taken on board much  ( Id presume ) from  watching  Neil Craig , if from a players perspective , ingesting the methods of Thompson ( whilst hopefully forgetting everything about H**d ). He was chosen specifically and mentored by Roos. He's not a noob in the normal sense. It's simply his first official season.  He won more than he lost. Not too bad at bat there, at first glance reversing the previous seasons 10W 12L for 12W 10 L.  Some may well be pleased at this further climb up the ladder if only a small step.. All in all it really goes to describe the box and not the contents. Boxes are often misleading.

If only marked against the season prior then it must be said  Goodwin is going along ok.  If however you overlay what we did upon what we might have done with reasonable expectations then the picture is not so glossy imho.  There are glaring inadequacies in our game style and execution which can only in the end be the responsibility of the coach(es).  Our starts to a lot of games was beyond poor to the point of not being measurable. That a joke( meme) would start that we only show up at qtr time is both damning and worrisome. Its the coaches job to prepare teams and get them in a state , physically and mentally to GO the second that first whistle goes. We were often Flinders Street  platform 9 , this train is not going ( though arguably full of passengers !! ).  These things can happen but that it should persist through the season and often against teams we ought to have punished from the get go raises for mine many questions. It's the Coach(es) job to get into the players' heads and prime them.  This needs some very serious change.

Roos was far from perfect as a game day strategist  and often lethargic to respond.  it's noted that Goodwin does indeed have a bag of tricks but Felix's it isn't, not just yet. As many note the"coming off the back of the square" was mildly brilliant.  It's good right up until it isn't as they say and fairly soon that advantage become a crutch. You have to know when to hold them , know when to fold them, so says the gambler and it applies in any game really. You need to adapt. You need to do so not just from week to week , or from qtr to qtr but you have to be paying attention and when the mood and tide of a game switched violently against you you need to CHANGE it up right there and then. This can only happen if the underlying tactics and abilities are available and understood ( read practiced ). Good teams morph. To manifestly stick to a particular gamestyle when it's failing is possibly obstinate , arrogant or just plain stupid. It might also indicate a lack of any such game B's . I hope that's not the case

This lack of response was seen on any number of occasions  but it really came to bear ,somewhat coincidentally, at the two games where weather played a crucial part. As others note the Wind was no friend to the Demons. As long as Ive ever played footy or watched it rule 101 of "crap weather day" footy is keep it simple. Against the wind and rain , keep it low , keep it out of the corridor and most importantly keep it ( the ball ). If you have to play the scrum game to inch up the field you do that.  With the wind , absolute opposite let the wind be THEIR enemy. Let it sail, let it fly...kick the bloody thing  and no stupid short passing. The north game was like a lesson in dumb footy.Yes we almost pinched it but couldnt and often through poor setting up ( for the day ). That should have been a massive lesson. I can only guess the club suffered from group amnesia and learnt absolutely nothing going in against a much much better rival ( than the Roos ) in the Giants. Here two worries surfaced ( for mine )  Firstly we just did all the dumb things again but to me more importantly we can't have done much research into where we were playing. It's like we brought a knife to a gunfight. More so was that we ignored any advice as to local conditions or considered our knowledge superior.  Another lesson.

Though these have been noted before it  must raise a question as to how well we do actually learn anything. Goodwin is still learning (we all should be still learning til we push up daisies ) so he might get a hall pass on the first but the second abomination of a game  beggars belief. Did NO oNE look at the winsocks/flags  ??

Thinking on your feet is a hallmark of astute awareness.  Goodwin did indeed at times demonstrate  that he could actually change to suit. Both prior to games and during he was /is prepared to move certain  players around  back and front to alter  effectiveness. This is a good thing. That we had to cover injuries to some very key personnel forced  inventiveness and it came. Our roving brigade of pinch hitting ruckmen acquitted themselves with merit.. Halfbacks became forwards. KPD became KPF.  Al positives for mine as it was horses for course stuff ( as it should be )   What then mystifies this writer is if you can think this way in one area why not others.

We play a zone defence. We play the marvelous Demon Diamond of death.All well and good but it isnt that deadly. It will not work nor can if an opposition takes you on full frontal and mans up  ( and more ) in their forward 50. Cattle dogs may herd sheep but a handful of defenders come unstuck mightily  if the opposition wont play "our" game. The coach needs to be able to morph the defence if he holds  any hope of stemming an onslaught. The most recent instance was the first qtr against the  filth.  Buckley knew exactly what he was going to face and exploited it to perfection.  It boggles my mind that a team that can play such a wonderful attacking game that brings good ol run and carry through the guts  relying on catching defending napping or out of position  can itself no see it' is vulnerable to exactly the same . In this sense you can't claim to not understand the mechanics of this style of play  so why allow yourself to be bested by it ? There's a lot of work still to be done here. Maybe Goodwin is waiting for better  and more able soldiers ? Hopefully theyre doming then.

Our forward structure.....I could just leave it blank here as I'm buggered if I know what it is.  We seem to work best when we suddenly have the ball into our forward 50 and players are running and things just happen. As to any Structured attack or ploys, well , youve got me !!. cant be kicking to presenting forwards, cant be kicking to practiced marking with intent of crumbing, cant be lowering eyes to anyone 40 out dead in front. I'm sure it's not any of these because we just dont seem to do it. Why not Simon ? Sometimes we just happen to get something right but it really seems more fortunate accidents than design.  This all goes to another area Im confused about. Why we persist with players who just arent up to it( or out of form ) Some selections at  the table seem mystifying at times and positively  bewildering when repeated after failure the following week(s).

Simon the quiet one. Like it or not in this day and age it befalls the Coach to front  the media in most instances when a representative is required to explain the goings and shortcomings of a team.Whilst we cant all be as accomplished and media savvy as Roos ,Simon will hopefully learn to utilise these opportunities to advantage. Whilst I cant stand the whinging of the Scotts I can understand their use at times of pushing an agenda or setting a scene for discussion in their favour. Gawn was be mercilessly killed by the umps but I didnt hear you say much Simon. Just some cryptic tweets from Max.

Im going to end it here or it could go on for a while and its not my intention to maximise word use but just to convey some frustrations.

All in all I give Goodwin a pass. I'll give him much benefit of doubt. We had a rubbish year of injury and yet for all of that I feel we gave away games through poor design and execution. Someone much shoulder that.

I suppose the opposite side to the coin is that all the areas we did poorly in become opportunities to do better next year.

If we are still discussing the same areas of failure this time next year Id be scanning the horizon for a new coach because it means we have learnt nothing. We all can make mistakes and that of itself is not failure. To repeat it is.

Go Dees

[Diamond_Jim 12,533]

Great thread and brilliant post BB ...

while many will not agree with everything it is well thought through and well argued.

 

[billyblanks29 184]

Fact: Goodwin has been to every final game this series & watched it live. This was mentioned when he was on Game Day on Saturday.

I like this because it shows he's committed to analysing finals sides and how they play. He's working on his game plan. To those saying he should have adapted faster when we are losing its not that simple. As a coach you have to stick to your guns. The only way.a team gets better playing a certain way is to play it. It was his first season at the helm. He'll be much better for it.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

On 25 September 2017 at 2:54 PM, rpfc said:

A few things have been bugging me this season, don't get me wrong - I have enjoyed the march back to relevance - but there have been some odd missteps and frustrating emanations from the club that won't be solved by Jack Watts being traded...

We all have a list of areas that go to explain why we didn't kick to extra goals over the course of the season - that is code for 'missing the finals'...

My main ones are:

• Injuries and fluctuating form of our best 6-8 players (Jones, Gawn, Hogan, Oliver, Viney, Hibberd, Petracca, and T McDonald).
• The vacuum of leadership at the club 
• The disappointing performance of the coaching staff

These latter two bring into focus our fledgling coach Simon Goodwin. 

Coaching Performance: Tricks, a motivated group, but naivete abounds

There is no doubt that he has motivated the core group of players to play a certain way; they play on with abandon, they handpass in tight spaces and trust 'the next man' to not fumble and to 'do their job.' However, this is overbalanced still and we didn't show much progress from the middle of the year to the end of the year in kicking when we were in position to. Sometimes, our forward line was not in position to make the most of a player quickly released by a chain of fantastic handballs; the player would look up and see player hurriedly running back into guarded space and/or expecting a kick so precise only 3 players on our list could hit the target. His 'trick bag' is innovative; the forwards coming off the back of the square threw teams for a loop and I look forward to more innovation and not resting on that move now that the competition has worked it out.

This leads me to the forward line - it is schizophrenic - and I appreciate Goodwins ability to make changes at will if something isn't working, I felt like we had so many changes and different structures going forward that we ended up the season with nothing working. Hogan missing isn't an excuse for changing the structure. It's an excuse for that structure to work less efficiently. We would sometimes have a deep presence with smalls beside the tall, and when that didn't work we went 'fwd line is lava no one in the fwd line' with players running back into there. And there were a few setups in between there and while that is unpredictable to the oppo, it is also unpredictable to Tysons left foot...

Then there were the two weeks we spent getting beaten by wind... I didn't see much of the NM game in Hobart but I saw the GWS massacre in all its gore. I wrote about it at the time - but the wind at Manuka always goes to the Kingston side pocket and that playing a man behind the football is a fact of life against a good team (the GWS respected us enough to have one in the 2nd term when they were 36 points up...), and yet we threw away our surprise 3 goal start by not only leaving our backs exposed for much of the quarter, but also by playing up the grandstand side of the ground for reasons that are yet to resonate with me. When you go up the grandstand side at Manuka, the wind is a propellant for the opposition to go through the middle of the ground and carve you up. Naivete or arrogance? I don't really care. It was the difference between being in the game and being out of it by quarter time. We had reports of similar play against NM the week before. If a team could drop a coach - those two weeks would seen Goodwin have a stint with Casey...

The Vacuum of Goodwin

Then there are the more complicated aspects to his persona that I wish he would address, I know he doesn't flame any bad narratives when he speaks - he hardly says anything when he speaks - but he would do well to understand that he can alter narratives for the better that might alleviate public (even if only Dees fans) pressure from certain players (Watts and Oliver come to mind, and of course Watts), prompt responses from those that should shoulder more burden than they do (outside of Watts and Tyson who is to blame for being 9th again?), and, lastly, shore up his own position and leadership (no one is that wooden, and no one that wooden leads anything for very long).

Without this - we have a vacuum - Roos filled it quite easily. He would push narratives and could seem self-serving and distracting. And sometimes, that is the point; when talked about the scars and burdens of the past ad nauseum we felt like he was giving the club a continued excuse, but as he outlines in his new book - he was trying to push a creed of patience against the screed of despair that was rife internally. That helped lift the pressure of the players as they relearned how to play proper football.

Goodwin seems in-cognisant of this ability, a we got a recent reminder of that with the below clip illustrating an awareness of a damaging narrative: that Watts "is the most talked about player" for someone who is not a core player, not in the leadership group, not in the coaching staff, and not in the administration. Those last points I added myself as Goodwin only stoked the narrative that Watts was worthy of all this attention after our failed 2017 by covering himself by saying he has a good relationship  with Jack, mentioning the coaching staff are clear with Jack, and keeping the narrative of 'Watts = Melbourne' fermenting by giving the discussion relevance with the content and tone of his response about his contract and him staying at the club.

 

 

Goodwin can come out forcefully and protect Jack Watts (or the next saviour) by shifting the focus and sharing the burden around with himself, his staff, the admin, and the leadership group that does very little leading when it comes to the burden of being the public face of the club, and the target of the ire of the club. Lewis does some and Gawn too, but years after Watts revealed himself to be nothing more than a uniquely talented role player, we are still shoving him into the coalface with little hesitation. If the rumours are true that we are shopping him around while at the same time that we are pushing him forward for cringeworthy press spots (https://au.sports.yahoo.com/afl/a/37206220/jack-watts-opens-up-on-2017-season-and-trade-talk/) - then the situation is more dire than I thought.

I have heard from a good source that the interpersonal relationships at the club are good - and that gives me some solace, but I sit here and I have no idea who the leader of the club was. Last three years I could tell you who it was - for good or bad - it was Paul Roos. Oddly enough, he shielded the enigmatic blonde kid a couple times and Watts responded.

But this year - I haven't heard much from the Admin so it isn't Jackson, it certainly isn't Mahoney or Bartlett. Nathan Jones has been seen and heard, but no more than previous years as captain. A novice coach doesn't have to be as good as Paul Roos - he is a great coach who helped redefine AFL in the professional era - but this novice coach needs to step up and start leading the club and driving the narratives that help his team, his players, and his club. 

Because, I have only seen or heard one leader since September 1 - and he might be traded next week...

I am going to need a good dose of gentleman Jack (or more) to digest this over an evening or two RP ....but looking forward to it! 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,167]

I thought for a first year coach he did a fantastic job, especially considering the injuries to key players he had to contend with. Up until the Swans game we had been in every game up until the last 15 minutes or so. There's still some issues to sort out in regards to dropping easy games, handling big key forwards and list turnover of depth players but we have a very good core to work with and a very good coach.

We missed finals by a bees dick. I know results are all that matter and the last game leaves a very bitter taste in our mouth over the offseason but had we snuck in to finals would some of us be so critical? What if we had then lost in the same manner as the Bombers did? I think assessing the performance of the coach and playing list on the back of the most recent game is fraught with danger. We need to view these things holistically and over the course of the season and especially considering injuries to Gawn, Hogan & Spencer early and then Viney, Jones and Watts later I think overall we gave ourselves a solid base to begin an assault on our 13th flag in the next few years.

[rpfc 28,261]

11 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I thought for a first year coach he did a fantastic job, especially considering the injuries to key players he had to contend with. Up until the Swans game we had been in every game up until the last 15 minutes or so. There's still some issues to sort out in regards to dropping easy games, handling big key forwards and list turnover of depth players but we have a very good core to work with and a very good coach.

We missed finals by a bees dick. I know results are all that matter and the last game leaves a very bitter taste in our mouth over the offseason but had we snuck in to finals would some of us be so critical? What if we had then lost in the same manner as the Bombers did? I think assessing the performance of the coach and playing list on the back of the most recent game is fraught with danger. We need to view these things holistically and over the course of the season and especially considering injuries to Gawn, Hogan & Spencer early and then Viney, Jones and Watts later I think overall we gave ourselves a solid base to begin an assault on our 13th flag in the next few years.

We would have gone to Port and thrashed them, they were that bad against the weagles. And then we would have been at Spotless against a bunch of arrogant flogs in a tough final.

I reckon we were a bees dick away from a Prelim at the G against the Tigers...

Hypotheticals are fun!

[beelzebub 23,313]

 

Deserves to be repeated here

Hmm  for some reason whole post doesnt seem to replicate...so here it is.

"Most of the list probably had 6 ordinary games in 2017. 

Many of our list haven't improved their ball use over a few seasons. But that doesn't seem to matter - ball use clearly isn't something that we consider important. Nor does running off the ball, nor making intelligent leads, nor stopping your opponent from being third man up in the marking contest. Nor shepherding, nor blocking for teammates.

It's all about smashing in for contested ball, or bombing it into the f50. "

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by beelzebub

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,619]

Way too early to call on Goodwin, but the early signs are looking good.

He really needs a good 3-5 years to have his system running at optimal.

I'm backing him in at this stage.

[Diamond_Jim 12,533]

1 minute ago, Is Dom Is Good said:

Way too early to call on Goodwin, but the early signs are looking good.

He really needs a good 3-5 years to have his system running at optimal.

I'm backing him in at this stage.

I don't think this thread is about "making a call on Goodwin" but rather constructive commentary on the performance of the coaching staff (which Goodwin leads) during the 2017 season.

There is little doubt that he did not get the best out of many players this year. Was it his fault .... probably not. Could he have improved in some areas...Undoubtedly.

Finals in 2018 is a must with a top 4 finish as the stretch goal.

[beelzebub 23,313]

Can I suggest that this is a running appraisal. It's not to suggest he is either doing a bad job or hes a good coach...either or etc.  Its where he currently sits. How is he going ? Are we satisfied ? are there areas of concern ?  All of those can be answered independently.

Without doubt season 2018 will put 2017 into perspective give a context to any further views as to how well Goodwin is going.  None of that however, in my view, detracts form the ability to consider how it's all going to date.

I have concerns. Others have same or similar. I also had concerns about Roos.

Many in the football world and general populace consider Melbourne's list to be right up there.  I'll stop being concerned the day more silverware is put into the trophy case. Not looking anytime soon right at this moment.

Two steps forward  and one back makes for a bloody long journey.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,167]

29 minutes ago, rpfc said:

We would have gone to Port and thrashed them, they were that bad against the weagles. And then we would have been at Spotless against a bunch of arrogant flogs in a tough final.

I reckon we were a bees dick away from a Prelim at the G against the Tigers...

Hypotheticals are fun!

It's not about hypotheticals its about viewing the season holistically. Considering we went so close to finals with so many injuries to key players I think was a decent effort all things considered. Are we really that far off the top 4/8 teams? I don't think we're that far off at all, the main issue is getting the players in the right headspace and having a decent run with injuries.

Not taking away anything from your initial post, Goodwin has things he needs to continue to develop. He's not the total package but I think supporters tend to jump at shadows sometimes when they're understandably furious after the turn up in last game. We need to continue on the path were on, it's the right path. I hope we don't panic and throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I also think Goodwin seems to have a good rapport with the players, has shown an ability to be a strategic thinker about how the game is played and is a capable of not polished media performer.

[beelzebub 23,313]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

It's not about hypotheticals its about viewing the season holistically. Considering we went so close to finals with so many injuries to key players I think was a decent effort all things considered. Are we really that far off the top 4/8 teams? I don't think we're that far off at all, the main issue is getting the players in the right headspace and having a decent run with injuries.

The problem I have with using the injuries as a 'get out " to missing finals is that it's actually a furphy. On any given day you can only play with the personnel you have agaisnt the personnel they have at a ground where conditions are the  same for both.

It all comes down to the day.  had we decided to turn up prior to some games its entirely reasonable to argue we might have won those games  as we manged to win the rest of it ( just lost ). Other games  we had the wrong people in the wrong positions for too long. Some games we just pushed shlt uphill needlessly ( entirely out of the box )

Despite these  kpp injuries" many of these games were still there for the winning.

I agree about the headspace though. Those on the ground were often , ...well not at the ground !!

[The Chazz 4,077]

20 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

The problem I have with using the injuries as a 'get out " to missing finals is that it's actually a furphy. On any given day you can only play with the personnel you have agaisnt the personnel they have at a ground where conditions are the  same for both.

It all comes down to the day.  had we decided to turn up prior to some games its entirely reasonable to argue we might have won those games  as we manged to win the rest of it ( just lost ). Other games  we had the wrong people in the wrong positions for too long. Some games we just pushed shlt uphill needlessly ( entirely out of the box )

Despite these  kpp injuries" many of these games were still there for the winning.

I agree about the headspace though. Those on the ground were often , ...well not at the ground !!

We rarely see eye to eye Bub, and we're at it again.

The injury front is not a furphy at all, it's fact.  Look at Sydney's start, they had a number of their better players out, and the lost every game.  Look what happened when they got those players back.

We're not talking about injuries to the likes of Kent, Tim Smith, Joel Smith.  We're talking Gawn, Viney, Hogan, Jones.  How you can't see that these injuries cost us games is beyond me.

And as I've mentioned in a previous post, it's not only the injuries, it's when they occur.  We played a half of footy against Richmond with 18 fit blokes.  You can't replace them mid-game.  This impacts structures, rotations.  We were in front at 3/4 time in this game - we were always going to run out of puff.  Similar story with the Geelong game.

By claiming "many of these games were there for the winning", yes, that's a fact, the game was still being played and we still had a team competing against another team.  But there are so many other elements attached to that which you are clearly dismissing.

[beelzebub 23,313]

Chazz , were there not games there for the winning that we simply fluffed ?

[The Chazz 4,077]

12 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Chazz , were there not games there for the winning that we simply fluffed ?

Absolutely and I've acknowledged that in my previous posts.

Are you suggesting that injuries played no part in us losing some games?

[Ethan Tremblay 30,825]

I believe in Goodwin. 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,167]

54 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

The problem I have with using the injuries as a 'get out " to missing finals is that it's actually a furphy. On any given day you can only play with the personnel you have agaisnt the personnel they have at a ground where conditions are the  same for both.

It all comes down to the day.  had we decided to turn up prior to some games its entirely reasonable to argue we might have won those games  as we manged to win the rest of it ( just lost ). Other games  we had the wrong people in the wrong positions for too long. Some games we just pushed shlt uphill needlessly ( entirely out of the box )

Despite these  kpp injuries" many of these games were still there for the winning.

I agree about the headspace though. Those on the ground were often , ...well not at the ground !!

It's not a furphy at all. Especially when you consider "in-game" injuries which can legitimately be seen to have cost us wins against Cats & Tigers. Especially when you cop injuries to key playmakers (Gawn, Hogan, Viney, Watts, Jones). This doesn't excuse the 22 who do suit up but it provides a reason why things may not have gone our way. Compare ours to the injury list the Tigers had this year.

We had poor showings against North (x2) Pies  etc but also had great showings against Saints, Adelaide, WCE & Dogs. It's not all doom and gloom, we are a young team with a rookie coach on the rise and I legitimately think we are very close to it all coming together. The final step to being a very good team is probably the hardest but if the coach and players have faith in themselves and the desire/application to carry it out we have the structures in place to ensure it happens.

[Pennant St Dee 13,113]

2 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Can I suggest that this is a running appraisal. It's not to suggest he is either doing a bad job or hes a good coach...either or etc.  Its where he currently sits. How is he going ? Are we satisfied ? are there areas of concern ?  All of those can be answered independently.

Without doubt season 2018 will put 2017 into perspective give a context to any further views as to how well Goodwin is going.  None of that however, in my view, detracts form the ability to consider how it's all going to date.

I have concerns. Others have same or similar. I also had concerns about Roos.

Many in the football world and general populace consider Melbourne's list to be right up there.  I'll stop being concerned the day more silverware is put into the trophy case. Not looking anytime soon right at this moment.

Two steps forward  and one back makes for a bloody long journey.

This pretty much sums up my view.

Work in progress, I think Goody had a good year overall. He made plenty of errors and lets hope he learns from them and makes us a better side.

Playing group also needs very much to learn from the mistakes

[Bossdog 2,002]

I do wonder if Richmond supporters were having this conversation last year or the year before.    I wonder what they are saying now that Hardwick is now coach of the year???   Most wanted him gone years ago.

I have to laugh at some posters who say that they will give Goody "another year".......How good of you.

After his first year, Goodwin has just missed the finals by one goal   One bloody goal

We won games that nobody gave us a chance......We lost some games that we shouldn't have but gee.....That's footy sometimes.   The injuries and fixture didn't help.    Adelaide were beaten by Nth and us in consecutive weeks.

This season was the most even in years, any side could have beaten any other side on any given week.

We all ask that the players "Buy In"    It's a pity that we don't sometimes.

Well, its now silly season with trade week approaching and some dickheed on SEN is telling me that Hogan is going back to WA (again) and Watts won't be playing at MFC next year.     Can't wait for all the stupid trades that posters can come up with.

Anyhow off to Sydney for a long weekend and will catch the footy in a pub somewhere. 

 

Edited September 27, 2017 by Bossdog