2 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

...average as first year senior coach and I can find no evidence that he is a good leader of any sort let alone a natural leader or a successful leader.

The bulk of your post I'm not entirely in agreement with, but I take issue with this line in particular... Goodwin took us from 11th last year with a percentage of 97.6 and 10 wins, to 9th this year with a percentage of 106.5 and 12 wins, many of those wins concocted with a number of our best players unavailable.  Having no experienced ruckman after Gawn and Spencer went down, Goodwin was forced to improvise using Watts and Pedersen, which in turn meant a complete rethink of the back and forward lines as players had to be shuffled around, often into unfamiliar positions.  Yes we probably should have made finals (and probably would have had an experienced coach like Roos still been in the driver's seat), but to say that Goodwin was average (reads like failed) as a first year coach is a very very harsh call.

50 minutes ago, willmoy said:

There are obviously posters, young as they seem, to have discord in their hearts these last few days. 

They are trying to do possible harm to the harmony and good place we are in at the moment....go away......

Yep. I'm finishing my Demonland career post haste. I'm getting too caught up in this.

1 hour ago, Cards13 said:

Driving to a meeting and caught last bit of KB and Venom Denham. Denham stated Paul Connors (Watts manager) has said Watts won't be at Melb next year. 

Disgree....   Denham said in his opinion that Connors would not allow watts to remain at MFC next year       Denhams opinions mean very little in the scheme of things

2 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

His premierships were in his first 2 years at the crows and his captaincy started 10 years later.  So it could not be said that he was a leader of a successful team.  Also, many excellent and decorated players are appointed to leadership positions eg captains that aren't good leaders; look no further than our beloved Demons.

Individual success + Captaincy do not = Good Leadership

When given the opportunity to show leadership he didn't:

1. At the age of 30 and about to be appointed Captain at the Crows he was taken to task by the AFL for gambling on an AFL game.  After being appointed captain he had treatment for a long standing gambling addiction.  

Set good standards - I think not!

Did not show leadership, especially of a young team that looked up to him.

2.  At the age of 32 he was Ass Coach of a club that implemented an unprecedented doping regime over an extended period of time.  He was not cited, probably because WADA rules didn't extend to support staff. 

Set good standards - I think not!

Did not show leadership, especially of a young team that looked up to him and relied on him amongst others to look after their well being.

He was a very successful player, average as captain, failed as an asst coach, average as first year senior coach and I can find no evidence that he is a good leader of any sort let alone a natural leader or a successful leader.

So hopefully people will stop talking about his leadership skills.

 

 

8 minutes ago, hardtack said:

The bulk of your post I'm not entirely in agreement with, but I take issue with this line in particular... Goodwin took us from 11th last year with a percentage of 97.6 and 10 wins, to 9th this year with a percentage of 106.5 and 12 wins, many of those wins concocted with a number of our best players unavailable.  Having no experienced ruckman after Gawn and Spencer went down, Goodwin was forced to improvise using Watts and Pedersen, which in turn meant a complete rethink of the back and forward lines as players had to be shuffled around, often into unfamiliar positions.  Yes we probably should have made finals (and probably would have had an experienced coach like Roos still been in the driver's seat), but to say that Goodwin was average (reads like failed) as a first year coach is a very very harsh call.

I don't think you can argue with the facts 'hardtack', they are there for all to see.

However the premise about his leadership is arguable and as you say the last line.

The gambling and his time at EFC. These things have always concerned me and his decision making has not always been solid.

Lets hope he's truly learned.

...but, I don't like the way this is playing out in the media at all.

Watts is still contracted and may stay at the Demons. Or he may retire and concentrate on selling overpriced fruit inspired short shorts. You heard it here first. #ETthetradebreaker.

This Watts thread is beyond the realms of human comprehension.

31 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I believe we're in excellent hands with Goodwin, et al.  Will he be a better coach and media performer in year two or five than year one ?  One would think so.

Do some emotional supporters make silly conclusions from afar ?  Absolutely.

So do i PD.

40 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Could it be that he did the hard yards at the Bulldogs that helped set up Beveridge's success ?  If only a small part ?

Could it be with what we're now seeing with Stringer and others such as Liberatore, that there was a core group at the Dogs with an unhealthy influence over aspects of their behaviour, or disenfranchisement with McCartney ?  Who knows.

I believe we're in excellent hands with Goodwin, et al. 

 

Will he be a better coach and media performer in year two or five than year one ?  One would think so.

 

Good post PD (assuming it is the real PD  - this new incarnation is very considered. Perhaps it is like Dr Who with each iteration being different to the last?).

My thoughts on a couple of your points

Could it be that he did the hard yards at the Bulldogs that helped set up Beveridge's success ?  If only a small part ?

Yes and yes, ridiculous to think otherwise.  Macca has not received anywhere near the credit he deserves for their flag success and for mine i lost some respect for the the dogs for not publicly giving him any (that i saw - perhaps i'm wrong).

Macca correctly predicted where the game  was heading and was ahead of the curve at the dogs. At a time when the hawks slice and dice game plan based on precision kicking and deliberate ball movement was the go he implemented the total pressure and all team intensity game adopted by the last two premiers(not coincidentally both  teams were not the most talented or skillful).

A DL poster (sorry  forgot who) compared this model to the Dutch 'total football philosophy', which i though is a brilliant analogy. Goodwins is a total believer in this total football philosophy - which goes a long way to explaining why he wants Watts gone and why he rates Macca.

Could it be with what we're now seeing with Stringer and others such as Liberatore, that there was a core group at the Dogs with an unhealthy influence over aspects of their behaviour, or disenfranchisement with McCartney ?  

Absolutely. A real challenge for the total football approach is it needs total buy in with every player totally invested in the approach and their teammates. The tigers were a brilliant example of this being the case. The bulldogs were an equally brilliant example of what happens when a team using the Total Football system does not have total buy in and cohesion. I wonder if the Dogs will be able to get it back.

I believe we're in excellent hands with Goodwin, et al.  

Could not agree more

Will he be a better coach and media performer in year two or five than year one ? 

Yes. He has made clear personal development is his mantra and i have every confidence he will continue to get better in all facets of his role.  

Hi all, First time poster.

the most concerning thing to me regarding the whole watts fiasco is that the club has preached watts entire career "play your role, number 1 or number 78 in the draft isn't relevant." Even Goodwin quoting numerous this year that jack is just another player.

Now, albeit he hasn't entirely fulfilled his potential yet, he still has been more than a handy contributor for the past few years. All of a sudden he gets put up for trade and "he hasn't lived up to expectations?"

doesn't sit well with me

 

It's more the fact that the only brand of players we want at our club are competitors. Jack just doesn't have that competitive drive and the club is sick of him thinking he can just get by on talent. 

14 minutes ago, dees2010 said:

Hi all, First time poster.

the most concerning thing to me regarding the whole watts fiasco is that the club has preached watts entire career "play your role, number 1 or number 78 in the draft isn't relevant." Even Goodwin quoting numerous this year that jack is just another player.

Now, albeit he hasn't entirely fulfilled his potential yet, he still has been more than a handy contributor for the past few years. All of a sudden he gets put up for trade and "he hasn't lived up to expectations?"

doesn't sit well with me

Welcome to the nut house mate 

20 minutes ago, rjay said:

 

I don't think you can argue with the facts 'hardtack', they are there for all to see.

However the premise about his leadership is arguable and as you say the last line.

The gambling and his time at EFC. These things have always concerned me and his decision making has not always been solid.

Lets hope he's truly learned.

...but, I don't like the way this is playing out in the media at all.

Quite often the "facts" don't tell the whole story.  Yes he had a gambling addiction, but did it affect his ability to lead on the field? - to the best of my knowledge, he was considered a very good captain.  The fact that he overcame his addiction could be seen as a measure of his strength and resolve (it is far easier to fall into addiction than it is to break that addiction); he certainly was not the first prominent player to succumb to that particular evil and he almost certainly will not be the last.

Re the EFC drug scandal... he was supposedly cleared of any involvement (I doubt assistant coaches and other supplementary staff would be been granted immunity).  We really have no idea of how much he was privy to, so I will give him the benefit of the doubt in that case.

Yes, the way this is playing out in the media is not a good look, but it certainly didn't hurt Dustin Martin when things went in a similar direction at the Tiges.  I am still of the belief that Watts will be staying at the club and will become a better player as a result of this whole episode (at least, I hope so).

33 minutes ago, dees2010 said:

Hi all, First time poster.

the most concerning thing to me regarding the whole watts fiasco is that the club has preached watts entire career "play your role, number 1 or number 78 in the draft isn't relevant." Even Goodwin quoting numerous this year that jack is just another player.

Now, albeit he hasn't entirely fulfilled his potential yet, he still has been more than a handy contributor for the past few years. All of a sudden he gets put up for trade and "he hasn't lived up to expectations?"

doesn't sit well with me

 

You’re talking on-field, Goodwin and the club are talking off-field. 

It’s tradition to spin a bit of a yarn about yourself in your first post. Welcome. 

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

I only read the first part of your post, but I can also point out that McCartney was highly regarded at Essendon, where he was an assistant coach in 2011.  That's 12 years as an assistant at two other clubs where his reputation was impeccable.  He's also apparently highly regarded at Melbourne and specifically by Goodwin.  Having been to a supporters forum once where he was the star attraction I found him very impressive.

Could it be that he did the hard yards at the Bulldogs that helped set up Beveridge's success ?  If only a small part ?

Could it be with what we're now seeing with Stringer and others such as Liberatore, that there was a core group at the Dogs with an unhealthy influence over aspects of their behaviour, or disenfranchisement with McCartney ?  Who knows.

We do know that Peter Gordon is an autocrat who gets rid of people in the blink of an eye.  A friend of mine is on the Board and Gordon is very much a control person.  He may have blinked too soon with Macca, although I recognise it's hard to push that line considering they won a flag.  We'll never know what McCartney may have been able to achieve.

Tumultuous leadership claims another CEO at Western Bulldogs

"The tumultuous leadership of Western Bulldogs president Peter Gordon has appeared to have claimed another scalp with the club appointing a third chief executive since Gordon resumed the head role at the club in 2013."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/afl/tumultuous-leadership-claims-another-ceo-at-western-bulldogs/news-story/6877e52188f29828fbb5c06e9f25b75a

 

I believe we're in excellent hands with Goodwin, et al.  Will he be a better coach and media performer in year two or five than year one ?  One would think so.

Do some emotional supporters make silly conclusions from afar ?  Absolutely.

Absolutely. Some emotional supporters do make silly conclusions from afar. I have no problem accepting I do that from time to time. Cheers!!

I appreciate the nature of your response too. Reasonably balanced, informative and not emotionally charged. Offers up some things for me to think about and allay my concerns. Perhaps I need to give him a chance.

I guess only time will tell.

1 hour ago, DeeZee said:

The latest is that he is going to Collingwood for a pick upgrade Of 10 to 6

I don't like it! going to Collingwood?? I can just see this spectacularly backfiring in our face even for pick 6 are they serious??

 

6 minutes ago, dees2010 said:

Hi all, First time poster.

the most concerning thing to me regarding the whole watts fiasco is that the club has preached watts entire career "play your role, number 1 or number 78 in the draft isn't relevant." Even Goodwin quoting numerous this year that jack is just another player.

Now, albeit he hasn't entirely fulfilled his potential yet, he still has been more than a handy contributor for the past few years. All of a sudden he gets put up for trade and "he hasn't lived up to expectations?"

doesn't sit well with me

 

I think the "hasn't lived up to expectations" thing is not about being a number 1 draft pick, like, 9 years ago. 

It's about his poor preparation in this pre-season, 2017, and about why he performed so poorly after his return from his hamstring injury late in the season.

He could not even get up for his own 150th - he put in a shocker that day - and after 3 poor games in a row, he got dropped to the VFL. Have people forgotten about that??

In contrast, Nathan Jones came back from his 6 weeks off with a calf injury, and he played like he hadn't missed a game.

I am really disappointed that people on this forum are sticking the boots into Simon Goodwin because he has taken a stand against Jack Watts. Just going by games won this year, the team that Goodwin has ultimate responsibility for has improved by 20% (12 wins this year - 10 wins last year) - not bad for a first time senior coach in his first year.

Has Jack Watts improved by 20% this year?

1 hour ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Watts is still contracted and may stay at the Demons. Or he may retire and concentrate on selling overpriced fruit inspired short shorts. You heard it here first. #ETthetradebreaker.

Maybe Goodwin has it in for Jack because:

1. He wasn't included on Jack's Christmas list last year when he was handing out shorts as presents......OR

2. He was included on the list but when he put on a pair of Jack's shorts everybody laughed at him!? 

7 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

You’re talking on-field, Goodwin and the club are talking off-field. 

It’s tradition to spin a bit of a yarn about yourself in your first post. Welcome. 

I'm (now) 4 posts in and just realised I've spun no yarn (thanks @Ethan Tremblay)...

Hmmm, I'm a lawyer working in the state taxes field, married to someone far wiser than me, I love music (currently spinning new albums from The Horrors, Protomartyr, Wolf Alice, Foo Fighters, LCD Soundsystem, but I love anything really, from 90s Smashing Pumpkins to metal, electro, and some pop), and good TV (favourite recent shows include Bojack Horseman, Rick and Morty, Master of None, Fargo, The Handmaid's Tale, Catastrophe and GoT). In my spare time, I catch up with good people, sit in the sun (when Melbourne is good enough to get it), and I run @theshortnews on Instagram and other channels with the similar name where I use Lego to tell the news. I have a strange sense of humour (might explain the Dees thing, but Jimmy handballed me the footy 29 years ago, and that was that).

Nice to meet you all - look forward to some good chats!

27 minutes ago, dees2010 said:

Hi all, First time poster.

the most concerning thing to me regarding the whole watts fiasco is that the club has preached watts entire career "play your role, number 1 or number 78 in the draft isn't relevant." Even Goodwin quoting numerous this year that jack is just another player.

Now, albeit he hasn't entirely fulfilled his potential yet, he still has been more than a handy contributor for the past few years. All of a sudden he gets put up for trade and "he hasn't lived up to expectations?"

doesn't sit well with me

 

How does a first time poster have 20 posts from back in 2010?

 

Watts obviously did something that the footy department feel was unacceptable. It's widely reported that Jack is a much loved figure at the club. Every mistake he makes surrounding his preparation may be amplified because of the respect other, less experienced players have for him, and as such the dept think he is an undue influence in how not to prepare.

Or maybe they have simply tired of him playing like he has one arm cut off.

Jack is capable of much much more than he gives.

3 hours ago, ProDee said:

It's comforting to be on the opposite side to some who post here.

That's usually how you form what side of an argument you are on, isn't it?

1 minute ago, RedButMostlyBlue said:

I'm (now) 4 posts in and just realised I've spun no yarn (thanks @Ethan Tremblay)...

Hmmm, I'm a lawyer working in the state taxes field, married to someone far wiser than me, I love music (currently spinning new albums from The Horrors, Protomartyr, Wolf Alice, Foo Fighters, LCD Soundsystem, but I love anything really, from 90s Smashing Pumpkins to metal, electro, and some pop), and good TV (favourite recent shows include Bojack Horseman, Rick and Morty, Master of None, Fargo, The Handmaid's Tale, Catastrophe and GoT). In my spare time, I catch up with good people, sit in the sun (when Melbourne is good enough to get it), and I run @theshortnews on Instagram and other channels with the similar name where I use Lego to tell the news. I have a strange sense of humour (might explain the Dees thing, but Jimmy handballed me the footy 29 years ago, and that was that).

Nice to meet you all - look forward to some good chats!

Great, another F*&$ing lawyer.

This site should be renamed LawyerLand

2 minutes ago, faultydet said:

Every mistake he makes surrounding his preparation may be amplified because of the respect other, less experienced players have for him.

Crikey!!

Just now, JackDeMan said:

Crikey!!

Remember some of our players are still kids, so while unlikely, its possible

 

8 minutes ago, RedButMostlyBlue said:

I'm (now) 4 posts in and just realised I've spun no yarn (thanks @Ethan Tremblay)...

Hmmm, I'm a lawyer working in the state taxes field, married to someone far wiser than me, I love music (currently spinning new albums from The Horrors, Protomartyr, Wolf Alice, Foo Fighters, LCD Soundsystem, but I love anything really, from 90s Smashing Pumpkins to metal, electro, and some pop), and good TV (favourite recent shows include Bojack Horseman, Rick and Morty, Master of None, Fargo, The Handmaid's Tale, Catastrophe and GoT). In my spare time, I catch up with good people, sit in the sun (when Melbourne is good enough to get it), and I run @theshortnews on Instagram and other channels with the similar name where I use Lego to tell the news. I have a strange sense of humour (might explain the Dees thing, but Jimmy handballed me the footy 29 years ago, and that was that).

Nice to meet you all - look forward to some good chats!

Good stuff. I’m in my second week of a year off being a stay at home Dad. In between dadding I’ve been perfecting my cold drip coffee and breaking trade related news.

40 minutes ago, dees2010 said:

Now, albeit he hasn't entirely fulfilled his potential yet, he still has been more than a handy contributor for the past few years. All of a sudden he gets put up for trade and "he hasn't lived up to expectations?

 

The "expectations" are not that he play better than Dusty Martin (a lowly no 3 draft pick).

 

The "expectations" are that he trains to the required standard, rehabs to the required standard, and generally puts in to the required standard.