Josh Kelly

[daisycutter 29,600]

18 hours ago, rjay said:

He (Cripps) certainly doesn't have the explosiveness of Judd or Ablett and despite height differences his game is more the Williams type than the other 2, I guess  that's the point.

Always a problem with comparing players but particularly of different generations.

there are other reasons i don't find the comparison valid, based on my recollection of diesal's standout skills. but that's just a personal perspective and it's far too premature anyway 

[demoniac 1,330]

On 2/8/2017 at 10:10 PM, rjay said:

The kid could play but he wasn't overly confident...apparently Neeld's approach took whatever he had.

Not saying he would have made it with better development, we will never really know that, but he was shot by the time he got to North.

According to one of his Melbourne team mates he just did not have the work ethic required. Same team mate ask Gysberts to train with him in the offseason and do all the sessions in an effort to lift his endurance and intensity in preparation for pre season. Fair to say Gysberts did not quite commit. Fair enough though. The physical workload and pain and sacrifice life of an AFL player is not for everyone. Just a shame we traded the Maclean pick for him. That remains the only trade deal that I can remember where I was when I heard about it!

[Engorged Onion 10,214]

3 minutes ago, demoniac said:

According to one of his Melbourne team mates he just did not have the work ethic required. Same team mate ask Gysberts to train with him in the offseason and do all the sessions in an effort to lift his endurance and intensity in preparation for pre season. Fair to say Gysberts did not quite commit. Fair enough though. The physical workload and pain and sacrifice life of an AFL player is not for everyone. Just a shame we traded the Maclean pick for him. That remains the only trade deal that I can remember where I was when I heard about it!

so...where were you then??

[demoniac 1,330]

Just now, Danelska said:

so...where were you then??

Waiting for a Wattle Park tram at the Flinders St/Swanston St tramstop. Turned my phone on at about 7pm and wondered why I had so many voicemails and texts!

[Blistering 538]

30 minutes ago, demoniac said:

According to one of his Melbourne team mates he just did not have the work ethic required. Same team mate ask Gysberts to train with him in the offseason and do all the sessions in an effort to lift his endurance and intensity in preparation for pre season. Fair to say Gysberts did not quite commit. Fair enough though. The physical workload and pain and sacrifice life of an AFL player is not for everyone. Just a shame we traded the Maclean pick for him. That remains the only trade deal that I can remember where I was when I heard about it!

This.

It never ceases to amaze me how often people bring up the tired old story about Mark Neeld destroying Gysberts' career. Gysberts' problem from early on being that he lacked a tank and that was when Dean Bailey was coach. Anyone who watched Gysberts lagging behind the field at pre season training would know what he needed to do to get to AFL standard. Unfortunately, we live in an age where people look to blame others for their failures - rarely do they look in the mirror to find the true answers.

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

41 minutes ago, Blistering said:

This.

It never ceases to amaze me how often people bring up the tired old story about Mark Neeld destroying Gysberts' career. Gysberts' problem from early on being that he lacked a tank and that was when Dean Bailey was coach. Anyone who watched Gysberts lagging behind the field at pre season training would know what he needed to do to get to AFL standard. Unfortunately, we live in an age where people look to blame others for their failures - rarely do they look in the mirror to find the true answers.

I disagree entirely.  If your assertion is that people look to blame others for their failures and that everything is in their own hands what the point of having a decent development and coaching staff?  Gysberts had the misfortune to be drafted by the most dysfunctional AFL football club this century and didn't cope.  How on earth can you lay all the blame on him?

Gysberts was a very talented footballer and you only have to look at his early games to see this.  He had clear weaknesses that Neeld and his development team failed to eradicate. I'd go further and say they were a terrible impact on him.  Gysberts was an introvert and was crushed by the hostile atmosphere generated by Neeld and his philosophy.  This has been confirmed to me by both players and staff who were there at the time.  A good leader inspires and makes his players want to follow. Neeld did exactly the opposite. I don't know if Gysberts had fixable faults but he certainly had talent. Are you writing off Petracca and Oliver now because they struggle in the running drills? Neeld snuffed out any chance the kid had and by the time he got to NM he was shot.  He didn't want to play AFL footy.  Again, confirmed by those that know him.

Neeld was a disaster.  He alienated the senior players, he failed to develop the younger players and he left us in a significantly worse place when he left than when he arrived.  Gysberts wasn't the only one significantly effected.

[rjay 24,815]

43 minutes ago, Vogon Poetry said:

Gysberts was an introvert and was crushed by the hostile atmosphere generated by Neeld and his philosophy.  This has been confirmed to me by both players and staff who were there at the time. 

Agree with your post 'Vogan', and this part in particular rings true from what I've been told by people outside the club who know him very well.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

2 hours ago, Vogon Poetry said:

How on earth can you lay all the blame on him?

I don't blame Gysberts, I blame Barry Prendergast for drafting him.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,672]

20 hours ago, Clint Bizkit said:

I don't blame Gysberts, I blame Barry Prendergast for drafting him.

I wonder whether we were doing enough (or any) assessment of the psychology of potential recruits in Prendergast's time. And do we do it now? If we're doing it now and not then and the reason we didn't do it then was a lack of resources, I might be prepared to cut Prendergast some slack. 

[Guest]

On 11/02/2017 at 4:48 PM, rjay said:

Agree with your post 'Vogan', and this part in particular rings true from what I've been told by people outside the club who know him very well.

It is possible that both Neeld and Gysberts were poor picks.

[demonoid 317]

Funny.....went to the last page of a josh Kelly thread and was expecting people to be discussing.....well......josh Kelly 

[daisycutter 29,600]

4 minutes ago, demonoid said:

Funny.....went to the last page of a josh Kelly thread and was expecting people to be discussing.....well......josh Kelly 

silly boy 

[demonoid 317]

2 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

silly boy 

I know. I fall for it every time

[Skuit 10,028]

3 hours ago, demonoid said:

Funny.....went to the last page of a josh Kelly thread and was expecting people to be discussing.....well......josh Kelly 

We could start a new Neeld thread. That would be fun.

[Whispering_Jack 29,731]

There's black and white and there are shades of gray in between. It seems to me that there's a conflict between the opinions of some of Gysberts' teammates if we're to believe what's been expressed here:-

demoniac - "According to one of his Melbourne team mates he just did not have the work ethic required. Same team mate ask Gysberts to train with him in the offseason and do all the sessions in an effort to lift his endurance and intensity in preparation for pre season. Fair to say Gysberts did not quite commit."

Vogon Poetry - "Gysberts was an introvert and was crushed by the hostile atmosphere generated by Neeld and his philosophy.  This has been confirmed to me by both players and staff who were there at the time."

Dean Bailey was Gysberts' first coach and had him for two years during which time the player showed he had the natural talent that made him a first round draft pick but also the limitations as mentioned in earlier posts. The off season to which demoniac is referring most likely was 2011-2 which is when Neeld took over the reins at the club so there were issues that were well and truly embedded by the time Neeld arrived.

I would suggest that an introvert who had limitations and was already shunning the opportunity to take part in a regime of self-improvement would have fared no better under the coaching of Paul Roos or Simon Goodwin than he did under Mark Neeld and later under Brad Scott. 

The comparison between Gysberts on the one hand and Petracca and Oliver on the other is ludicrous because the latter two have already demonstrated their desire for self-improvement and are already showing the benefits of that.

So who should we blame?

Was it Bailey, Neeld, the hostile atmosphere in a dysfunctional club, poor recruiting and list management, "burn out", Gysberts himself or the tooth fairy? Upon whose judgement do we rely to make the call?

I suspect that it was a combination of a number of factors and issues that beset him and indeed the club going back a number of years that led us to the uncomfortable period we've experienced since our last finals appearance.

Thankfully, those days are behind us and to bring us back to the discussion at hand - the areas in which we have improved immeasurably are coaching and recruiting. Kelly is going to be a great player but the trade that netted us Tyson, Salem and ultimately Hunt (as Redleg has pointed out) works for me.

[Skuit 10,028]

I blame global warming.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,672]

3 hours ago, Whispering_Jack said:

There's black and white and there are shades of gray in between. It seems to me that there's a conflict between the opinions of some of Gysberts' teammates if we're to believe what's been expressed here:-

demoniac - "According to one of his Melbourne team mates he just did not have the work ethic required. Same team mate ask Gysberts to train with him in the offseason and do all the sessions in an effort to lift his endurance and intensity in preparation for pre season. Fair to say Gysberts did not quite commit."

Vogon Poetry - "Gysberts was an introvert and was crushed by the hostile atmosphere generated by Neeld and his philosophy.  This has been confirmed to me by both players and staff who were there at the time."

Dean Bailey was Gysberts' first coach and had him for two years during which time the player showed he had the natural talent that made him a first round draft pick but also the limitations as mentioned in earlier posts. The off season to which demoniac is referring most likely was 2011-2 which is when Neeld took over the reins at the club so there were issues that were well and truly embedded by the time Neeld arrived.

I would suggest that an introvert who had limitations and was already shunning the opportunity to take part in a regime of self-improvement would have fared no better under the coaching of Paul Roos or Simon Goodwin than he did under Mark Neeld and later under Brad Scott. 

The comparison between Gysberts on the one hand and Petracca and Oliver on the other is ludicrous because the latter two have already demonstrated their desire for self-improvement and are already showing the benefits of that.

So who should we blame?

Was it Bailey, Neeld, the hostile atmosphere in a dysfunctional club, poor recruiting and list management, "burn out", Gysberts himself or the tooth fairy? Upon whose judgement do we rely to make the call?

I suspect that it was a combination of a number of factors and issues that beset him and indeed the club going back a number of years that led us to the uncomfortable period we've experienced since our last finals appearance.

Thankfully, those days are behind us and to bring us back to the discussion at hand - the areas in which we have improved immeasurably are coaching and recruiting. Kelly is going to be a great player but the trade that netted us Tyson, Salem and ultimately Hunt (as Redleg has pointed out) works for me.

No-one. I'm not a great fan of apportioning "blame" for honest mistakes. I doubt the recruiters deliberately stuffed up the pick; I suspect the coaches didn't want him to fail; and as Gysberts would have been a teenager when he was first drafted I can't see why anyone should blame a child who discovered after a reasonably short period of time that the rigours of an AFL career weren't for him. 

Edited February 12, 2017 by La Dee-vina Comedia

[Whispering_Jack 29,731]

36 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

No-one. I'm not a great fan of apportioning "blame" for honest mistakes. I doubt the recruiters deliberately stuffed up the pick; I suspect the coaches didn't want him to fail; and as Gysberts would have been a teenager when he was first drafted I can't see why anyone should blame a child who discovered after a reasonable short period of time that the rigours of an AFL career weren't for him. 

Precisely.

[thesleepinggiant 160]

16 hours ago, demonoid said:

I know. I fall for it every time

Its "Click bait" people!

[Adam The God 30,065]

On 2/9/2017 at 6:39 PM, Lord Travis said:

On output Bontempelli is the best of the 3. He's probably got the highest ceiling too due to his size and versatility.

Cripps is already the number 1 clearance player in the league, and ranked 2nd in the AFL for contested possessions. He is unarguably better than Kelly on output thus far. On potential Kelly has the skills to surpass him, but he's still not a proven game changer. Cripps is. Hoping Oliver can become as dominant as Cripps is around the stoppages.

I'd argue on output Cripps is miles ahead of Bontempelli, but I like making outrageous statements.

[Lord Travis 10,685]

1 hour ago, A F said:

I'd argue on output Cripps is miles ahead of Bontempelli, but I like making outrageous statements.

Cripps is not far behind. Bont gets the nod as he stood up and lead when the heat was on in finals and was a key part of a premiership.

I hope Oliver becomes our big match winner and helps us win a premiership. Or Petracca. Or Brayshaw. Or Viney. Or Hogan. Or Hunt. Or Salem. The talent is there, just need it to develop and click at the right time!

[Adam The God 30,065]

1 hour ago, Lord Travis said:

Cripps is not far behind. Bont gets the nod as he stood up and lead when the heat was on in finals and was a key part of a premiership.

I hope Oliver becomes our big match winner and helps us win a premiership. Or Petracca. Or Brayshaw. Or Viney. Or Hogan. Or Hunt. Or Salem. The talent is there, just need it to develop and click at the right time!

I feel like the public sentiment with regards to Bontempelli even at the start of last year was ridiculously unwarranted. I will admit he stepped up in finals, but before that he was massively overrated. Cripps didn't have a final to showcase his talents, so I think that argument is relatively unfair.

But I can certainly see Oliver reaching Cripps' level. Cripps did nothing in his first year or so and then it clicked. Oliver came out and dominated his first game against GWS.

[Pennant St Dee 13,044]

49 minutes ago, A F said:

I feel like the public sentiment with regards to Bontempelli even at the start of last year was ridiculously unwarranted. I will admit he stepped up in finals, but before that he was massively overrated. Cripps didn't have a final to showcase his talents, so I think that argument is relatively unfair.

But I can certainly see Oliver reaching Cripps' level. Cripps did nothing in his first year or so and then it clicked. Oliver came out and dominated his first game against GWS.

Cripps broke a leg in his first year 

[Adam The God 30,065]

23 hours ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Cripps broke a leg in his first year 

But before or after he'd played games? 

[Demon Disciple 12,014]

15 minutes ago, A F said:

But before or after he'd played games? 

before