POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 9

[beelzebub 23,383]

Macca i think its all too easy to make our circumstances fit our results.

I don't buy it. We were in fine position to win games despite all of theze 'reasons' . When players walk over the line there are no problems , only competition. We've been in it there abouts but some crap play has cost us. 

These are often decisions in play. There's no time or context to reference those outside concerns.

So i ask myself why are we losing ?

I know why we lost sunday. 

Neither actually is about players out, more picking and placing them wrongly. Maggots didnt help  but the game  WAS there to take still.

I want to know why we cant play 4 qtrs. I want to know where we go for the first 30 mins ?

Are we really trying to win or still hoping undeserved games bolsters underdeveloped noobs ?

We ought to be doing a lot bettet.

[Willmoy1947 4,140]

4 hours ago, Demonised said:

Deliberate trips - and at significant moments. You used to get reported for that.

They, the players, are trained to do it especially at the scotty schools. The game has deteriorated to such an extent that in the name of "play on" there are no frees for interference, and no frees for pushing the back, or shepherding off the ball. The bloody umpires cannot keep up and they haven't got the guts to complain about what they feel should be accommodated to better the Game, rather than allowing the pervasiveness of things like the jumper punch. And there are umpires, of course, who have bias ingrained and become spiteful, especially about those who have the temerity to criticize, when it is in their own backyard where they should focus. 

[sc93 21]

The wins against Adelaide and Essendon showed that when we play well we hardly have a bad player, so I don't think we have an issue with personnel

I think the only thing standing in our way is what's going on above the shoulders, we smashed first place and then got beaten by 17th

The real concern from yesterday is why we come out cold at the start of the 1st and 3rd, in my opinion the coach and captains aren't demanding enough from their players and they've got every right to demand more

I think we have too many players that just think that it's 'going to happen' wouldn't surprise me if in the next 10 yrs the club psychologist becomes a pivotal role in a football team

 

[Macca 17,033]

1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

Macca i think its all too easy to make our circumstances fit our results.

I don't buy it. We were in fine position to win games despite all of theze 'reasons' . When players walk over the line there are no problems , only competition. We've been in it there abouts but some crap play has cost us. 

These are often decisions in play. There's no time or context to reference those outside concerns.

So i ask myself why are we losing ?

I know why we lost sunday. 

Neither actually is about players out, more picking and placing them wrongly. Maggots didnt help  but the game  WAS there to take still.

I want to know why we cant play 4 qtrs. I want to know where we go for the first 30 mins ?

Are we really trying to win or still hoping undeserved games bolsters underdeveloped noobs ?

We ought to be doing a lot bettet.

I don't have those same expectations with the players that we have currently available ... in fact, I could mount an argument that we're doing reasonably well, all things considered.  We are where we should be.  I'll take this season's results and standard of play over any of the previous 10 seasons.

You've got to have quality tall's in order to be able to compete properly on a consistent basis.  We've battled against the odds with mixed results. 

I reckon we'll win our next 2 games and if Gawn & Hogan make it back without incident, we can still play finals.  But we're going to need both of them fit and firing for the 2nd half of the season in order for that to happen. 

Edited May 22, 2017 by Macca

[Akum 2,660]

On reflection, Goldstein was damaging, but I don't think he was the difference.

It was our old nemesis, the spare man in defence.

They had Thompson, Tarrant, Hansen and Mullett against Watts, Weideman and Hannan.

I think Goody's game plan is to bomb it to within about 20m of goal, and bring the ball to ground and lock it into our forward 50 until we score. It's worked well this year, we've got a lot of goals that way. It's not the initial f50 entry, it's the subsequent play that gets the goal. That's why Hogan isn't leading in the games he's played this year, that's why Watts isn't presenting a long way down the ground like he used to and is being told to fly for pack marks in the forward line. 

This works well only if we get it in fast and deep. If the buildup is slowed down by too many handballs, or if it's too shallow and we only bomb it to 40-50m, it makes it far too easy for an organised defence, especially if they have a spare man, to block our forwards from getting to the fall of the ball and allow their spare man to take an uncontested mark. Hansen did hardly anything all day except stop Watts contesting - holding him back or blocking him, and if necessary blatantly charging him in the back. 

My point is that -once again and again and again - if they're playing a spare man back, bombing it in just plays into their hands. We need to change something - do what most other teams do and man up their spare (who is usually the sort of player who hates one-on-one contests) and increase the chances of "chaos goals" in the forward line, or run it up the ground (of course, when we did that, we got run down from behind more than I've ever seen, because of lack of talking).

We're playing a very naive game at the moment. Looks great when it comes off, but cunning teams who plan well can find ways to pick us off. And we are too often too naive to do anything about it. A developing team with a developing coach.

[mrtwister 652]

If we can't prevent the opposition from getting a clean clearance from the middle then we are stuffed with OMac down back. He's good when he needs to read the play coming in from general play but out of the middle he is always getting towelled up. With bigger forwards to defend I think we go with tmac and frost up the middle and rotate jack into the ruck with pedo. 

 Have we tried this combination this year? 

I know we have been using tmac forward but sometimes I think we'd be better off going smaller up forward with low inside 50 entries so we can strengthen our backline.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,297]

2 hours ago, Macca said:

And as someone else remarked, the MCG is a ground for big men.

But many are sick to death of losing games and they are tired of the excuses.  I don't mind the angst, the hue & cry and the venting.  That comes with the passion. 

But we now have genuine reasons for dropping games but those reasons are coming at the wrong time for many. 

I do believe that we left ourselves short a ruckman though and I can never understand why we need so many 'in between' players on our list.  We could have rookied a mature-age ruckman and paid him a bit above award.  There are ways.

And perhaps the MC had a bit too much faith in Weideman although we did draft Hulett as well.  Neither of them have come on though.  We may well have gone overboard on the same type of midfielder and left ourselves short in the tall stakes (no pun intended)  We've got an abundance of half-back flankers as well. 

I suppose we're just strong in some areas of the list and not-so-strong in other areas.

Completely forgot about Hulett is he injured? 

[Macca 17,033]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Completely forgot about Hulett is he injured? 

Apparently Hulett did ok for Casey on Saturday night and took a couple of nice contested marks ... kicked 2 goals.  Others who actually watched the game will know better.

I'd be more looking at whether he can provide a real contest and get to the front position consistently.  If so, he could be worth a burl.

 

[Demon Jack 6,930]

Just watched a few bits and pieces of the replay.

Kudos to Mitch Hannan. He's been a bit inconsistent so far this year (first year player, no surprises there), but he was a massive factor in our turn around in the second quarter. A very handy three goals and he was involved in some fantastic plays that led to some other goals for his teammates. I'd like to see him in more one on one contests as he is a fantastic user of the body. I counted at least three contested marks he took during the game where he completely out-bodied his opponent. 

[Skuit 10,031]

2 hours ago, Macca said:

And as someone else remarked, the MCG is a ground for big men.

But many are sick to death of losing games and they are tired of the excuses.  I don't mind the angst, the hue & cry and the venting.  That comes with the passion. 

But we now have genuine reasons for dropping games but those reasons are coming at the wrong time for many.

But people will see the wins and believe it's not a factor or one we should be good enough to overcome. With a team full of kids. We have to work harder for everything and don't have any free outs. How many times did Waite get up the field to mark as outlet for them? With Hogan and Pedo missing from the forward-line, and Watts and Weids unable to take contested marks, we can't release anyone.

Beating Adelaide took a massive, joint effort from our midfield. And I sincerely think the middle drivers of that win all looked tired yesterday - Jones, Viney, Oliver, Petracca and Salem. We didn't have the middle fringe-players for coverage - Stretch, ANB - and our other mid seniors in Vince, Lewis and Tyson are being used elsewise/just aren't damaging enough to take up the offensive slack.  

It's top down. We already have a taxing game-style, and the extra-work is hurting everyone. No heart or hubris? Come on.

[Adam The God 30,411]

22 hours ago, Skuit said:

I just watched now. Interesting comments, as he was relating what was spoken about in the brief post-match review. 'Individuals who weren't on their game early'. Then he goes on to say, 'as a team, we weren't cracking in around the contest' - so - 'the ball was coming in really quickly', and that North 'had a lot of run off half-back that really broke us apart'. Is that Goody pointing the finger at out forwards? I think so.

But they were well off it for the whole day though, and didn't do what we need them to do to execute our game-plan as a whole. Beside them, Hunt stood out as starting off quite flat before working into it a bit, and I don't think it was a stretch when watching him to think that he was still feeling the effects of last week. For me, we were just a bit collectively tired and slow in the first rather than it noticeably being an individual player thing, and the Roos were spreading well and had a early focus on intercepting our ball movement.

He's talking about the mids and forwards. Failing to crack in around the contest is directed at the mids and the run off half back is a result of that and our forwards' inability to lay tackles as well.

18 hours ago, Petraccattack said:

In all 4 of our wins, we have had more kicks than handballs.

When we handball more than we kick, we lose, just like yesterday.

I think this is an oversimplification, HH. We handball more when there's greater pressure on us and we're being beaten on the spread and in the work rate skates. So yes, our losses see us handball more in order to find the free player. That means our players aren't working hard enough to provide an outlet for the disposer to give it to. I'd prefer we over handball it though than simply kick it back to the opposition. And I'm sure Goody feels the same way.

[What 18,810]

We have the 5th best % in the league, and are 11th on the ladder.

Fremantle are in the bottom 5 for %, yet they are 5th on the ladder.

Would be nice to have their luck.

 

 

[Stretchyourself 42]

I'm not worried by these performances. It's too hard each week backing up without a ruckman. It unsettles everything else. 

Gawn does a heap of running. So you need to cover that. Pedo needs to run everywhere  but we need him chf. Watts then needs to play key position. He's better on the flank with 3rd defender. 

 

Forget what Gawns brings,  it's covering him that's killing us. 

 

When hogan returns weed can continue to develop at casey. Still a kid. So is Oscar. We need a lock down backman. 

Coach can't use no gawn as an excuse of course. But that is totally the excuse. Watch us transform with gawn back in! 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,297]

7 hours ago, Demon Jack said:

Just watched a few bits and pieces of the replay.

Kudos to Mitch Hannan. He's been a bit inconsistent so far this year (first year player, no surprises there), but he was a massive factor in our turn around in the second quarter. A very handy three goals and he was involved in some fantastic plays that led to some other goals for his teammates. I'd like to see him in more one on one contests as he is a fantastic user of the body. I counted at least three contested marks he took during the game where he completely out-bodied his opponent. 

Yeah Hannan was fantastic, stood strong in the contests and more the most of his opportunities. Great to see, hopefully he backs it up over the next couple of weeks.

[rjay 25,088]

7 hours ago, Demon Jack said:

Just watched a few bits and pieces of the replay.

Kudos to Mitch Hannan. He's been a bit inconsistent so far this year (first year player, no surprises there), but he was a massive factor in our turn around in the second quarter. A very handy three goals and he was involved in some fantastic plays that led to some other goals for his teammates. I'd like to see him in more one on one contests as he is a fantastic user of the body. I counted at least three contested marks he took during the game where he completely out-bodied his opponent. 

 

20 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah Hannan was fantastic, stood strong in the contests and more the most of his opportunities. Great to see, hopefully he backs it up over the next couple of weeks.

I like what he brings but he needs to eradicate those costly little fumbles/mistakes.

He gets his hands on marks he should take and fumbles ground balls he should eat up.

If he can tidy this up then we have a good player on our hands.

[John Crow Batty 8,879]

3 hours ago, Petraccattack said:

We have the 5th best % in the league, and are 11th on the ladder.

Fremantle are in the bottom 5 for %, yet they are 5th on the ladder.

Would be nice to have their luck.

 

 

Freo know better how to finish off close games. They way they set up in the final minute to beat us and also Richmond is master class stuff. If we were more clued up we could have easily had two more wins and be 5th or higher. Cue in onfield leaders.

Edited May 22, 2017 by america de cali

[beelzebub 23,383]

14 minutes ago, america de cali said:

Freo know better how to finish off close games. They way they set up in the final minute to beat us and also Richmond is master class stuff. If we were more clued up we could have easily had two more wins and be 5th or higher. Cue in onfield leaders.

Goody hasn't graduated yet. He will. 

At least he does react and make changes in a game. It is rather interesting to note often our first and last qtrs...or latter part of last qtrs...is often where we get done.

Goody needs to get these right himself first before he can manouvre the troops.

[John Crow Batty 8,879]

10 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Goody hasn't graduated yet. He will. 

At least he does react and make changes in a game. It is rather interesting to note often our first and last qtrs...or latter part of last qtrs...is often where we get done.

Goody needs to get these right himself first before he can manouvre the troops.

Well he better work harder on the on field leadership. He can't be a last minute substitute. Freo against Richmond is a prime example. The coach is in the elevator and the players set up perfectly to win a clearance and open up the forward line whilst our brothers in ineptitude Richmond don't even flood the backline with 21 seconds to go. Or like us when they force a turnover and there is 3 defenders to 5 forwards in their forward 50 when the ball arives. There must be a reason why Goodwin keeps his hair close cropped.

Edited May 22, 2017 by america de cali

[DubDee 26,117]

4 hours ago, Petraccattack said:

We have the 5th best % in the league, and are 11th on the ladder.

Fremantle are in the bottom 5 for %, yet they are 5th on the ladder.

Would be nice to have their luck.

 

 

nothing to do with luck.  they win games as their senior players lead the team and direct the younger guys

[beelzebub 23,383]

2 minutes ago, DubDee said:

nothing to do with luck.  they win games as their senior players lead the team and direct the younger guys

lucky them !!

[jnrmac 20,186]

Have now watched the replay. The umps were a disgrace as we know:

Multiple deliberate trips when surging towards goal were not paid.

Several soft frees to Brown

Shocking error for Hibberd deliberate OOB

non-50m to Bugg for certain goal

Salem free that should have been awarded to him when he was taken out of play on the memebers boundary line. Instead it was play-on NM.

Numerous jumps on the back when on the ground

Numerous push in backs by the chaser when kicking

Punch to the throat of Oliver

Punch to the guts of Vince. 

10 frees in the whole game???

In spite of all that we should have won if we had done a few things better. Mostly running and spreading and shocking turnovers under little pressure. 11 of their first 12 goals were from T/O's. Bugg's kicking.

Surpringly we won the clearances.

Oh, and we were effectively 2 players down with Weid and the useless OMac. 3 players if you count the downhill skier Kent.

In short, infuriating loss to a team that is 2nd only to Essendon on my most hated list.

 

Edited May 22, 2017 by jnrmac

[jnrmac 20,186]

11 hours ago, willmoy said:

They, the players, are trained to do it especially at the scotty schools. The game has deteriorated to such an extent that in the name of "play on" there are no frees for interference, and no frees for pushing the back, or shepherding off the ball. The bloody umpires cannot keep up and they haven't got the guts to complain about what they feel should be accommodated to better the Game, rather than allowing the pervasiveness of things like the jumper punch. And there are umpires, of course, who have bias ingrained and become spiteful, especially about those who have the temerity to criticize, when it is in their own backyard where they should focus. 

The umps could stop it in a heartbeat by paying frees. They totally lost control of that game. An the laughing with Nth players as they were walking off at 3/4 time was a further disgrace.

Edited May 22, 2017 by jnrmac

[jnrmac 20,186]

It's hardly been mentioned but what a dog act by Higgins when he was abusing Vince as he lay prostrate on the ground...

It was front page news when Mark Murphy did that to Carlisle

 

[loges 6,767]

17 hours ago, jumbo returns said:

He did - watch the replay

Kicks were ill directed or didn't make the distance

Don't have to, 3 times right in front of where I was sitting actually looked to see who would go up for Melbourne so he wouldn't have to

[Dr. Gonzo 24,297]

4 hours ago, rjay said:

 

I like what he brings but he needs to eradicate those costly little fumbles/mistakes.

He gets his hands on marks he should take and fumbles ground balls he should eat up.

If he can tidy this up then we have a good player on our hands.

He took a few strong marks on the weekend. He hasn't played 10 league games yet remember.