2 hours ago, Radar Detector said:

This is all true AF, however until it actually results in game day results, it's lip service. We are still losing to bog ordinary teams in circumstances where we absolutely should be winning.

Hawthorn are no longer a good side. They didn't play amazingly well against us and they were a man down for 3/4. 

We're making strides and we'll get there eventually but it tests the patience.

I think that's rubbish. It's not lip service. Surely you're capable of making a judgement on the clear improvement of our team without seeing us win every week. It's irrelevant whether you think the Hawks are past it or not. IMO they are, but that doesn't mean they can't turn it on from time to time. And one thing we know Hawthorn will always be is well drilled.

The fact remains that we've been in every game this year. That's not 2 or 3 rounds at this stage. That's 7 rounds we've been ahead in last quarters or level in last quarters. If you can't see the clear improvement in that then I can't help you.

Edited May 11, 20178 yr by A F

4 minutes ago, Macca said:

We are on track ... we just need a ruckman.  We're not a 4 quarter team yet and nor should we be expected to be a 4 quarter team yet either.  If we were we'd be premiership material (and we're not - not yet anyway) 

We've gone from having the best 'taps-to-advantage' ruckman in the league to having the worst 'taps to advantage' ruckman.  Consquently, the teams we are playing against have ruckman who are dominating us like Gawn does against others.  A double-whammy effect. 

And that is no slight on Pedersen either ... he is battling against extreme odds and is obviously doing his best.  I'm happy for Cam to remain in the team once we do get Spencer/Gawn back.

Without a ruckman of note, we are/were always going to find it difficult to win games.  And that is a reason, not an excuse.  Jacobs this week will be more than a handful. 

Those who don't rate ruckman won't agree .... perhaps they'd be open to trading out Gawn once he gets fit. 

And before anyone wants to point to the clearance numbers against Hawthorn ... those numbers aren't real and are a misnomer. In terms of clean clearances, our numbers were woeful. Again, the Gawn/Spencer factor at play. 

There's a big around the ground effect too.  Hawthorn (and O'Brien) doesn't take those contested marks if Gawn is playing.  We have another path down the line out of defence and we have another tall path in the forward line because they are not rucking so much.

2 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

You could argue that everyone has lost to some bog ordinary teams this year.  The Swans were 0-6 before last weekend.  It begs the question - are there really any bog ordinary sides this year?  Brisbane are the only one who spring to mind.  The Hawks and the Swans started very slowly but they are both still choc full of premiership talent, something most sides can't fall back on.

I'm not using this as an excuse for our losses, more that we certainly aren't the only ones doing it.  You could argue pretty much every side has at some stage this year. 

Again this is all true but we have lost three games against sides we should've beaten on paper. Richmond there were extenuating circumstances but the Freo and Hawks games were both lapses is concentration and or application which should now be inexcusable.

The fact that there are no truly woeful teams makes it even more important that we put away the ordinary ones, surely? Otherwise this is destined to be a wasted year. Logic says we should continue to get better but at some stage the team actually has to take that step. It could (and possibly should) have already happened by this stage of the season given the cattle we now have which is the frustrating thing.

9 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

There's a big around the ground effect too.  Hawthorn (and O'Brien) doesn't take those contested marks if Gawn is playing.  We have another path down the line out of defence and we have another tall path in the forward line because they are not rucking so much.

Yep ... everything is connected on the footy field and there are always flow-on effects. 

I hate losing as much as anyone else but against the current trend of thinking, I rate rucking more than ever.

That thinking was brought about by having a ruckman/follower like Gawn

When Spencer returns we'll at least be able to 'somewhat' break even in the ruck. 

8 minutes ago, Radar Detector said:

Again this is all true but we have lost three games against sides we should've beaten on paper. Richmond there were extenuating circumstances but the Freo and Hawks games were both lapses is concentration and or application which should now be inexcusable.

The fact that there are no truly woeful teams makes it even more important that we put away the ordinary ones, surely? Otherwise this is destined to be a wasted year. Logic says we should continue to get better but at some stage the team actually has to take that step. It could (and possibly should) have already happened by this stage of the season given the cattle we now have which is the frustrating thing.

I think the year was destined to be a waste the moment we lost our two ruckmen.  We can manage generally but when arguably your best player, and reigning AA ruckman, goes down for a large part of the season and your back up quickly follows suit then you are always going to be in trouble.  

And I agree that we've had some serious lapses in concentration that we need to quickly get rid of out of our game.  I don't think any sane person would argue that.  But you could also argue most sides have done the same things we have due to how even the competition is.  Sides will make you pay for it now.

We have the cattle, we just need to add the composure under pressure and the ability to put sides away.  We haven't had a list capable of doing this in a decade so we still need to learn how to do it, which is hopefully not far away.

The letters isn't a big deal. Supporters and 'past player' commentators bag players all the time - its usually a little more constructive is all. Its just in writing that makes it interesting.

My reading of history tells me a couple of things about teams on the rise and on the way down (although there are some rare exceptions including impact of free agency)..

Teams like Hawthorn on their transition down typically find a way to win close games because of their experience and composure but have to do it more often until eventually the group ages and tires, and the belief goes with it.

Young talented teams on the way up typically lose to sides like Hawthorn who still have elite composure and the know how to win games. Eventually the pendulum swings and as the young team chips away at its belief long enough. The critical thing is that Melbourne need to have high effort even if they are losing as eventually (if they do) luck will fall their way more and more in close games and belief will lift naturally. That didn't happen on the weekend

I think its healthy for the playing group to feel the expectation we have as supporters and not be apologetic. Who cares if one supporter expresses their passion more than another. Everyone is different. It's what supporters of successful teams do all the time. We have seen enough in the playing style and list to know that if they can compete for longer than 3 quarters their time will come. It's definitely mental but not unusual for emerging young teams. It needs to stop at some point however otherwise their is the risk the players accept they are unlucky and shy away from expectation and hard work.

Its probably time that started to happen for the MFC soon. If we are to be successful, at some point this year the drive and hunger to win (or not lose) and play finals will need to overshadow the fear of expectation and the hard work that is needed. Hopefully that comes sooner than later. For me this has been a good week as the acid is on MFC players to overcome their fears. Their next main test will be against North as they have nothing to lose against Adel this week

 

Edited May 11, 20178 yr by Demons1858

53 minutes ago, A F said:

I think that's rubbish. It's not lip service. Surely you're capable of making a judgement on the clear improvement of our team without seeing us win every week. It's irrelevant whether you think the Hawks are past it or not. IMO they are, but that doesn't mean they can't turn it on from time to time. And one thing we know Hawthorn will always be is well drilled.

The fact remains that we've been in every game this year. That's not 2 or 3 rounds at this stage. That's 7 rounds we've been ahead in last quarters or level in last quarters. If you can't see the clear improvement in that then I can't help you.

I don't need help. 

I'm not denying we've improved. We absolutely look like we will become a good side. But we have wasted a chance to show that we are a good side already. We have lost several games we should have won because we went missing for big chunks of the game. None of the teams we have been beaten by played so amazingly well against us that we should pat ourselves on the back for getting close but losing.

If you are satisfied with where we sit based on the chances we have had to win games against the opponents we have played then that's fine. But I think you are building a narrative to justify settling for results that by and large we shouldn't settle for any more. It's because of the talent I see in this group that I feel this way.

12 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

I think the year was destined to be a waste the moment we lost our two ruckmen.  We can manage generally but when arguably your best player, and reigning AA ruckman, goes down for a large part of the season and your back up quickly follows suit then you are always going to be in trouble.  

And I agree that we've had some serious lapses in concentration that we need to quickly get rid of out of our game.  I don't think any sane person would argue that.  But you could also argue most sides have done the same things we have due to how even the competition is.  Sides will make you pay for it now.

We have the cattle, we just need to add the composure under pressure and the ability to put sides away.  We haven't had a list capable of doing this in a decade so we still need to learn how to do it, which is hopefully not far away.

Again, I agree with most of what you say, however having no recognised ruckman is not the reason we lost against Freo or the Hawks. It may prove costly in some games to come, but we could have won at least two of the games we've played so far anyway.

In-game injuries against Geelong and Richmond definitely played a part in those two losses though.

34 minutes ago, Macca said:

Yep ... everything is connected on the footy field and there are always flow-on effects. 

I hate losing as much as anyone else but against the current trend of thinking, I rate rucking more than ever.

That thinking was brought about by having a ruckman/follower like Gawn

When Spencer returns we'll at least be able to 'somewhat' break even in the ruck. 

Apart from Max's obvious talents, he has strong self belief and appears to relish tough challenges which I suspect gives confidence to those around him

14 minutes ago, Radar Detector said:

Again, I agree with most of what you say, however having no recognised ruckman is not the reason we lost against Freo or the Hawks. It may prove costly in some games to come, but we could have won at least two of the games we've played so far anyway.

In-game injuries against Geelong and Richmond definitely played a part in those two losses though.

5-2 would have looked very good at this stage. Very poor effort to lose to Freo and Hawks in their current state. They are just starting their rebuild and this is our 4th season of our rebuild. We should be slamming those sides and charging into serious finals contention. These are the bread and butter wins.

Edited May 11, 20178 yr by america de cali

6 minutes ago, Demons1858 said:

Apart from Max's obvious talents, he has strong self belief and appears to relish tough challenges which I suspect gives confidence to those around him

a classic case of fellows walking taller around him

4 hours ago, beelzebub said:

a classic case of fellows walking taller around him

Goodwin quoted today saying he is ahead of schedule and expected to play in 5-6 weeks.

5 hours ago, Radar Detector said:

Again this is all true but we have lost three games against sides we should've beaten on paper. Richmond there were extenuating circumstances but the Freo and Hawks games were both lapses is concentration and or application which should now be inexcusable.

The fact that there are no truly woeful teams makes it even more important that we put away the ordinary ones, surely? Otherwise this is destined to be a wasted year. Logic says we should continue to get better but at some stage the team actually has to take that step. It could (and possibly should) have already happened by this stage of the season given the cattle we now have which is the frustrating thing.

Sorry Radar, but this doesn't really mean anything.  I watched Hawthorn run out onto the ground and thought, crikey, we will be in for a tough arvo here, there are some decent players out there coached by one of the best of all time.  WTF has 'paper' got to do with it?  Its been a while since we have had as much talent at our disposal this is true.  But in the last ten [censored] years, its really only this year and last where we have had more hope, and shown better glimpses of what might be.  GWS, dominant last year, how long did it take them to all get it right and gel.  5 or 6 years.  And they've had ridiculous talent across the board for the last 4 years.  So I must be an idiot.   I expect we will take a little longer to work it all out.  7 games, been a chance in all of them, trying our guts out.  I am rapt in whats unfolded this season.  No rucks, under adversity with stupid suspensions, new coach - hold your head high Demons.  Im loving it. 

As for the pharkwit that sent the letter to Schwarz, well, deary, deary me, lord heavens above, oh my goodness...poor bloke

Edited May 11, 20178 yr by pinkshark

6 hours ago, Demons1858 said:

Not sure about the Jones comment. He was pretty good last week. A few other more established players probably need to have a think about when they play their best footy.

Jones was bad in the first Quarter when the tone was set..The Hawks killed us in the that first half hour

As a Captain he has to be more proactive when it really counts

7 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

I think the year was destined to be a waste the moment we lost our two ruckmen.  We can manage generally but when arguably your best player, and reigning AA ruckman, goes down for a large part of the season and your back up quickly follows suit then you are always going to be in trouble.  

And I agree that we've had some serious lapses in concentration that we need to quickly get rid of out of our game.  I don't think any sane person would argue that.  But you could also argue most sides have done the same things we have due to how even the competition is.  Sides will make you pay for it now.

We have the cattle, we just need to add the composure under pressure and the ability to put sides away.  We haven't had a list capable of doing this in a decade so we still need to learn how to do it, which is hopefully not far away.

West Coast lost their first two choices as ruck include NiCNat as an AA ruckman... they don't write off the season because of it 

 

FFS our ruckman is walking around the club calling himself 'the difference'. Whilst in humour, it shows that our players except/believe because we have an injury to our star players it's okay to but up an effort and lose 

 

 

1 minute ago, Wolfmother said:

West Coast lost their first two choices as ruck include NiCNat as an AA ruckman... they don't write off the season because of it 

 

FFS our ruckman is walking around the club calling himself 'the difference'. Whilst in humour, it shows that our players except/believe because we have an injury to our star players it's okay to but up an effort and lose 

 

 

Totally different situations.  They knew about this prior to the start of the year and planned accordingly.  It's why they got Petrie and still have Giles on the list.  Both men didn't go down at the beginning of the season.

And yes, I know we didn't have a third tall ruckman ready to go, but who knew this was going to happen?  Some years you get the luck, others you don't.  We are still being super competitive regardless of what has happened, but if we don't make finals then we have a fair indication of why.

Goody shaking in his boots and has dropped JKH.  Thank god the git wrote the letter.

who is writing to Goody next week with guidance on selections?

I don't mind some blow back to be honest. That performance last week, ESPECIALLY THE FIRST HALF, was an utter disgrace from the whole club.  How can you not have a team mentally up and about to win a very winnable game that you are expected to and should win that would have put us in a pretty solid position and looking at finals??

Not once, but over and over and over across so many seasons. My angst is that he only directed fire at Goody alone and missed a big opportunity to target the whole club. Don't agree with the membership aspect But....

The question the entire club, including Goody, needs to answer but wasn't asked in that letter is the most important question in the club's mostly horrid record since 64 going forward.  Which is.....

What are we doing differently this week, to the past 52 years that will see us rectify the mental fragility of this team on the field?  That is, whenever we are faced with the expectation of winning and going into a match as strong favourites we generally lose!!??

You could eliminate all the hanger on players you want and have a very very special starting 22. Without the correct frame of mind, competitive edge and killer instinct to find a way to win.....we won't shake this tag nor will we start winning matches we should be winning, like last week, often enough to ever threaten for a premiership.  And it won't matter who the coach is or which era of players take the field.

Ignore last week's match at your peril guys for unless what happened there is sorted we will forever be irrelevant to the competition.  Last week needs to become our line in the sand. Sort it MFC.

Edited May 11, 20178 yr by Rusty Nails

I still think if we can be in the hunt mid season, get gawn back and we will improve our consistency and can come home with a wet sail and challenge for the eight. But the saints may just keep winning and make it impossible 

I am absolutely happy someone sent Goodwin a letter displaying their disgust with the club. Goodwin should give everyone a full membership refund for [censored] weak performance,basically the club might as well been run by any of the two major political parties,freakin taking us for granted. We need A.s.a.p if not sooner a clean out are the coaching and fitness staff,we seem to have too many of them.Instantly strip the captaincy from N.Jones and Viney,two many captains(cooks) spoil the "broth".We need new recruiters,the only decent young players we picked up is Petracca,Oliver and Hunt.The rest  are useless to ordinary. Once again why didn't we get a forward/ruck instead of JKH,we have a team that is like swiss cheese lots of holes( inept players). I refuse to get a membership because of the [censored] that is associated with our team.The young newbies  we recently recruited are a long way off from playing senior footy.We much have people running the club that are able to think outside the square,footy has evolved except for our club. Once again good on the person who sent GOODWIN the letter of angst.

4 hours ago, pinkshark said:

Sorry Radar, but this doesn't really mean anything.  I watched Hawthorn run out onto the ground and thought, crikey, we will be in for a tough arvo here, there are some decent players out there coached by one of the best of all time.  WTF has 'paper' got to do with it?  Its been a while since we have had as much talent at our disposal this is true.  But in the last ten [censored] years, its really only this year and last where we have had more hope, and shown better glimpses of what might be.  GWS, dominant last year, how long did it take them to all get it right and gel.  5 or 6 years.  And they've had ridiculous talent across the board for the last 4 years.  So I must be an idiot.   I expect we will take a little longer to work it all out.  7 games, been a chance in all of them, trying our guts out.  I am rapt in whats unfolded this season.  No rucks, under adversity with stupid suspensions, new coach - hold your head high Demons.  Im loving it. 

As for the pharkwit that sent the letter to Schwarz, well, deary, deary me, lord heavens above, oh my goodness...poor bloke

As much as paper counts for nothing, so does the past. Hawthorn are a shadow of their former selves. They have been exposed badly on a number of occasions this year and they did not play at a level on the weekend that should trouble this Melbourne team. We blew it. Paper or not it was a wasted chance.

But given the cattle we have it will click eventually (I hope).

Oh, and while I have said I don't begrudge the writer his right to vent, I think he is wide of the mark with Goodwin who by and large I think will be a great coach.

Edited May 11, 20178 yr by Radar Detector

27 minutes ago, ENYAW said:

I am absolutely happy someone sent Goodwin a letter displaying their disgust with the club. Goodwin should give everyone a full membership refund for [censored] weak performance,basically the club might as well been run by any of the two major political parties,freakin taking us for granted. We need A.s.a.p if not sooner a clean out are the coaching and fitness staff,we seem to have too many of them.Instantly strip the captaincy from N.Jones and Viney,two many captains(cooks) spoil the "broth".We need new recruiters,the only decent young players we picked up is Petracca,Oliver and Hunt.The rest  are useless to ordinary. Once again why didn't we get a forward/ruck instead of JKH,we have a team that is like swiss cheese lots of holes( inept players). I refuse to get a membership because of the [censored] that is associated with our team.The young newbies  we recently recruited are a long way off from playing senior footy.We much have people running the club that are able to think outside the square,footy has evolved except for our club. Once again good on the person who sent GOODWIN the letter of angst.

I liked the swiss cheese analogy. The captain cooks one was a bit of a stretch.

1 hour ago, Rusty Nails said:

Ignore last week's match at your peril guys for unless what happened there is sorted we will forever be irrelevant to the competition.  Last week needs to become our line in the sand. Sort it MFC.

I think we have had a lot of "line in the sand" moments I've lost count. 

Hopefully this one is different but I'm not holding my breathe. 

21 hours ago, DemonOX said:

I think we have had a lot of "line in the sand" moments I've lost count. 

Hopefully this one is different but I'm not holding my breathe. 

No I'm not either Ox... Especially after the excuse filled response from Goody.  Hope he isn't pushing that rubbish inside the four walls

Edited May 12, 20178 yr by Rusty Nails

Are our experience players immuned from getting demoted? That would surely send a message to the rest of the team that you will get dropped if you slack off. I think the Swans ages ago dropped their captain.Anyone out there please correct an old so and so like me.