On 27/03/2017 at 06:55, Sir Why You Little said:

The SOS situation i find very interesting

it does seem to be "all eggs in one basket"

From the outside looking in, it looks like the work of a boy's club and sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. It didn't work at Melbourne and it's not working at Carlton. Unless things change there pretty quickly, they'll be looking for a new coach as early as next year.

  On 27/03/2017 at 06:56, Danelska said:

it's all about 'relationship building' SWYL - sometimes it works really really really reallllly poorly for you.

Yes i know. I have seen it happen on the office floor 

  On 27/03/2017 at 06:58, A F said:

From the outside looking in, it looks like the work of a boy's club and sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. It didn't work at Melbourne and it's not working at Carlton. Unless things change there pretty quickly, they'll be looking for a new coach as early as next year.

Sad that Bolten will be scape goated

SOS seems untouchable over there..

  On 27/03/2017 at 07:04, Sir Why You Little said:

Sad that Bolten will be scape goated

SOS seems untouchable over there..

Not sad at all. He's Carlton's coach and as a result I hope he fails, but stays at the helm for as long as possible.

  On 27/03/2017 at 07:13, A F said:

Not sad at all. He's Carlton's coach and as a result I hope he fails, but stays at the helm for as long as possible.

Yes understood. But i think he has some coaching ability. 

That of course means nothing if he is presented with rubbish

  On 27/03/2017 at 06:48, A F said:

The same way SOS over at Carlton keeps getting it wrong over and over again at the draft/trade table. He's not very good at his job. 

When you have key decision makers who are not very good at their job, other poor key decision makers are employed and it's a self-perpetuating cycle.

The MFC was a cesspit, but time to move on.

Carlton list was the terrible when SOS arrived and its profile suggested it was only going to get worse in the coming years. SOS has cleared out heaps of players quickly that might have got a game but aren't going to improve enough to play in a potential finals side. By clearing them out he helps them bottom out to get trade picks and to a lesser extent saves some salary cap money. They have rarely traded top end draft picks away only the bottom end ones if I recall correctly - although there was one mega deal were they traded in heaps of GWS players. So he traded in heaps of young cheap GWS talent and brought in the occasional players in place of late trades that go nowhere anyway.

Whether the GWS imports work or not - that is a bonus. What's more important is what they do with the top end talent they recruit while they bottom out. They would want to get it right like Todd and Jason have. The GWS list he moulded looks alright so I think he knows what he is doing but starting from a long way back - time will tell

  On 28/03/2017 at 00:27, Demons1858 said:

 

Whether the GWS imports work or not - that is a bonus. What's more important is what they do with the top end talent they recruit while they bottom out. They would want to get it right like Todd and Jason have. The GWS list he moulded looks alright so I think he knows what he is doing but starting from a long way back - time will tell

Barry Prenders could have moulded a better list with the number of free hits that SOS had. Look closely at the actual strike rate.

  On 28/03/2017 at 00:27, Demons1858 said:

Carlton list was the terrible when SOS arrived and its profile suggested it was only going to get worse in the coming years. SOS has cleared out heaps of players quickly that might have got a game but aren't going to improve enough to play in a potential finals side. By clearing them out he helps them bottom out to get trade picks and to a lesser extent saves some salary cap money. They have rarely traded top end draft picks away only the bottom end ones if I recall correctly - although there was one mega deal were they traded in heaps of GWS players. So he traded in heaps of young cheap GWS talent and brought in the occasional players in place of late trades that go nowhere anyway.

Whether the GWS imports work or not - that is a bonus. What's more important is what they do with the top end talent they recruit while they bottom out. They would want to get it right like Todd and Jason have. The GWS list he moulded looks alright so I think he knows what he is doing but starting from a long way back - time will tell

Going by his recruiting efforts at Carlscum so far i still have doubts he has any idea. 

Anyone could have assembled the list at GW$,they were given all the cream and more to choose from

  On 26/03/2017 at 08:50, Nasher said:

Thought this would be a thread about picking Oliver.

I love that they've been able to find gems late in the draft like Hunt, Hannan etc, but it's nailing those early picks that the previous bunch muffed that will project us towards the top 4. It looks so far that all of Oliver, Brayshaw, Petracca and Salem will at least be very good, with Oliver almost certainly going to be in the top echelon if not already. There's always misses in the top 20 but we seem to have gone from one extreme to the other.

It's just such a relief knowing our key picks are in such good hands. 

It's also a relief knowing such good hands belong to our key picks.

  On 27/03/2017 at 05:26, nutbean said:

It just shows you that you need all moving parts of a club working.

It really does defy belief how the Eagles won the premiership in 2006 with all that was apparently going on.

The alternative view could be that with all the talent at their disposal at the time they wasted their opportunity because of the off-field issues and should have won more than one Premiership.

  On 28/03/2017 at 01:50, Sir Why You Little said:

Going by his recruiting efforts at Carlscum so far i still have doubts he has any idea. 

Anyone could have assembled the list at GW$,they were given all the cream and more to choose from

Think your underselling his efforts. Its true that they got plenty of assistance but they played it smartly just the same. Traded in experienced players that were done at top clubs at little or not cost to guide the youngsters and focussed top selections on future talent which the afl hadn't totally expected. You just need to look at the Gold coast to see how not to do it (although I acknowledge they got lesser concessions). All those talented draft selections which they now don't need are now used as currency to bring in even more selections and mature bodies at the point end of their list management

  On 28/03/2017 at 00:45, Skuit said:

Barry Prenders could have moulded a better list with the number of free hits that SOS had. Look closely at the actual strike rate.

Must admit I haven't gone through it in detail but I can't recall any major stuff ups that cost them anything significant under SOS. Happy for you to enlighten by you Skuit? Note that I'm not looked for example of players traded in that basically cost them nothing to recruit and helped pair back the list to bottom out

Imagine the list we would have if Jason Taylor had control of all the picks the suns or giants got? 

I really think sos is an extremely overrated recruiter and has set Carlton back with some of his giants imports I mean why would anyone bother with Jed lamb or palmer??

I'll just bring this thread back to Jason Taylor.

I must admit on 2015 draft night I was surprised when I didn't see Parish picked up then looked up Clayton Oliver's highlights package and specs. Was even more surprised to see a heavily built player but liked his contested possession highlights.

It's a credit to Taylor + recruiting team that they looked deeper into whether he had the mental strength to condition himself for AFL (he had done some work prior to draft night, which would have provided confidence) and an even bigger credit to Clarry for the work that he's done between then and now to get to where he is now. God only knows how good we'll be if he keeps working at the same rate.

I've just got a warm fuzzy feeling all over at the moment... 

  On 28/03/2017 at 05:43, Abe said:

Imagine the list we would have if Jason Taylor had control of all the picks the suns or giants got? 

I really think sos is an extremely overrated recruiter and has set Carlton back with some of his giants imports I mean why would anyone bother with Jed lamb or palmer??

List cloggers, mate.

  On 28/03/2017 at 05:22, Demons1858 said:

Think your underselling his efforts. Its true that they got plenty of assistance but they played it smartly just the same. Traded in experienced players that were done at top clubs at little or not cost to guide the youngsters and focussed top selections on future talent which the afl hadn't totally expected. You just need to look at the Gold coast to see how not to do it (although I acknowledge they got lesser concessions). All those talented draft selections which they now don't need are now used as currency to bring in even more selections and mature bodies at the point end of their list management

I know what GW$ did. 

The couldn't fail, it hasn't even finished yet. 

This thread is about Jason Taylor, not about SOS.

I will try not to vilify or belittle SOS too much until we can actually beat his team!!  Hopefully I can resume Sunday night.

  On 28/03/2017 at 05:49, small but forward said:

I've just got a warm fuzzy feeling all over at the moment... 

It's called an orgasm, sbf

  On 28/03/2017 at 14:57, Demon Disciple said:

It's called an orgasm, sbf

Nah, not quite there yet. Need to win a flag...

Eddie is probably still crying that we poached this guy.  

  On 29/03/2017 at 01:51, Petraccattack said:

Eddie is probably still crying that we poached this guy.  

 Thank you for bringing that thought into the conversation, always nice to remember Eddie McGuire is still miserable and only going to get sadder.

I don't think Collingwood or Carlton have made much progress on their lists for quite a few years now. Between them, all they seem to have done is keep on feeding the GWS beast.

Carlton keeps bringing in bundles of semi-adequate or 'might be handy' players without much real quality being added. They have lost more 'sure best 22' players in trade in the last five years than they've gained. The deficit from losing Eddie Betts alone hasn't been covered. There's been a few good draft picks, like Cripps and Weitering, but at the moment the best they can hope for is the Richmond situation of loitering around the middle of the table, with the same 10 players getting all the spots in the best and fairest every year for a decade.

Collingwood have grabbed Howe, Greenwood, Dunn, White, Mayne and Wells in trade or free agency, because obviously the secret to sustained success is to bring in more of the older non-leaders with no big game credentials. Interestingly, all their recruiting under the age of 26 has been from GWS. Adams, Treloar, Hosking-Elliot. And they probably paid 'overs' for all three, even if the first two have been core players since arriving. Two first round picks for Adam Treloar, and then Heath Shaw for Taylor Adams.

Meanwhile, Melbourne have managed a total list rebuild. As for our trading - I don't see a lot of overs, and most importantly, we didn't move ourselves out of any top-end draft positions.

Bugg - acquired along with a pick upgrade from 10 to 7, in exchange for a third and fourth round pick.

Kennedy - A complex multi-club deal, our share was "Melbourne received Kennedy and picks No.29 and 50 and gave up Howe and Toumpas "

Frost - traded from Greater Western Sydney to Melbourne in exchange for pick 23, with the Giants sending picks No.40 (Nibbler) and No.53 (O.Mc) back to the Demons.

Garlett - Picks 61 and 79. Haaa ha ha.

We'll have to wait and see how Melksham (pick 25), Hibberd (pick 29) and Lewis (pick ha ha bite me Hawthorn) turn out.

 

Tell you what, all these trades go direct back to the Taylor stamp, the total absence of draft picks from 10-39. He must really hate that range.

  On 30/03/2017 at 04:23, Little Goffy said:

 

Bugg - acquired along with a pick upgrade from 10 to 7, in exchange for a third and fourth round pick.

Kennedy - A complex multi-club deal, our share was "Melbourne received Kennedy and picks No.29 and 50 and gave up Howe and Toumpas "

Frost - traded from Greater Western Sydney to Melbourne in exchange for pick 23, with the Giants sending picks No.40 (Nibbler) and No.53 (O.Mc) back to the Demons.

Garlett - Picks 61 and 79. Haaa ha ha.

We'll have to wait and see how Melksham (pick 25), Hibberd (pick 29) and Lewis (pick ha ha bite me Hawthorn) turn out.

 

Tell you what, all these trades go direct back to the Taylor stamp, the total absence of draft picks from 10-39. He must really hate that range.

I think you've left out the best trade which, as far as I know, didn't relate to players.

Pick 6 and 2016 first rounder for pick 3 (ended up being 4 when Sydney took Mills) and 9.

Oliver and Weed will be foundation stones for a decade.  Better than the Tyson/Salem deal in hindsight and I thought that was exceptional.  I think Mark Neeld bought Taylor with him.  In a funny sort of way it's ironic that whilst decimating the club he provided the foundation stone of the future.

I'm going to make a massive call - Clayton Oliver will be our best midfielder since Ron Barassi (note Flower was a wingman in a very different era, so he's not included in my deliberations).  When you work through it it's actually not such a big call, it's a logical call to anyone who's seen him play and is familiar with our lack of stars over the last 50 years.

He's unquestionably Jason Taylor's best pick.  To be pick 4 when you fail to make your U18 state team in the year you're drafted is incredible intuition and judgement by those that recruited you.  The deal done to orchestrate two picks in the top 10 and make certain of the selection was just as brilliant, as it was the first time a deal of that nature had been done.  We set the standard for other clubs to follow under the new points system.

I'd say Hunt was his next stroke of genius in a long line of really solid or great decisions.

And while there was a time I wanted to hunt Prendergast down he's done what virtually no other recruiter before him had, he recruited Gawn, who is a star of the game and should end his career as one of this club's greats.

 

  On 30/03/2017 at 05:00, ProDee said:

I'm going to make a massive call - Clayton Oliver will be our best midfielder since Ron Barassi (note Flower was a wingman in a very different era, so he's not included in my deliberations).  When you work through it it's actually not such a big call, it's a logical call to anyone who's seen him play and is familiar with our lack of stars over the last 50 years........

..............should end his career as one of this club's greats.

 

I thought that was a massive call but you are right. Sadly when you work through it being the best midfielder for the MFC over the past few decades isn't a high bar to get over.

If he gets over N. Jones then he probably has Viney X 2, Junior, Bruce, Johnstone, Moloney, McLean, Tingay, Woewodin, Wells and Lovett well covered too (I've no doubt missed a few)

We just haven't had a midfielder of the quality of a Voss, Buckley, Judd, Hird, Matthews, Dangerfield or Fyfe. 

It is only Clayton's 15th game this Sunday but if anyone is going to challenge for the best Melbourne mid in memory it most likely will be him

  On 30/03/2017 at 06:02, fndee said:

I thought that was a massive call but you are right. Sadly when you work through it being the best midfielder for the MFC over the past few decades isn't a high bar to get over.

If he gets over N. Jones then he probably has Viney X 2, Junior, Bruce, Johnstone, Moloney, McLean, Tingay, Woewodin, Wells and Lovett well covered too (I've no doubt missed a few)

We just haven't had a midfielder of the quality of a Voss, Buckley, Judd, Hird, Matthews, Dangerfield or Fyfe. 

It is only Clayton's 15th game this Sunday but if anyone is going to challenge for the best Melbourne mid in memory it most likely will be him

Greg Wells imo is the best mid we've had since Barassi and better than Todd Viney, etc.  

And as I mentioned earlier, I don't consider Flower a mid in the true sense of the word, as wingers weren't really mids in those days.

  On 30/03/2017 at 05:00, ProDee said:

I'm going to make a massive call - Clayton Oliver will be our best midfielder since Ron Barassi (note Flower was a wingman in a very different era, so he's not included in my deliberations).  When you work through it it's actually not such a big call, it's a logical call to anyone who's seen him play and is familiar with our lack of stars over the last 50 years.

And while there was a time I wanted to hunt Prendergast down he's done what virtually no other recruiter before him had, he recruited Gawn, who is a star of the game and should end his career as one of this club's greats.

 

First welcome to the "I love Oliver " club. You have joined a number of us who joined the club after his first game with us. 

As for Prendergast he also picked Tom Mc, but his list of abject failures is very long and he caused catastrophic deficiencies in our playing list, which gave us no chance of improvement and set us back several years. 

Edited March 30, 20178 yr by Redleg