36 minutes ago, waynewussell said:

Wagner will be 22 in June, almost Frost's age, not a kid... recruited to be able to step straight in.

He's 21 and has had no experience playing in the AFL. He may not be a "kid" but he is under developed. What has he proven? Why does he get a pass straight to the seniors when others are made to "bang down the door" in the VFL (the way it should be)? I'm highly suspect of this decision, of course I'd love to be proven wrong but it doesn't fill me with confidence, in fact I can see it being a disaster if he has only 5-10 touches, is towelled up and made to look like a fool by one of their bigger forwards and panics under pressure causing even more turnovers in our back half (our achilles heel).

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/video/2015-11-27/rookie-draft-pick-no6-josh-wagner

 

I reckon they've lost the plot.

Inconsistent messaging now twice in a row. They keep banging on about bringing up ready players in good form from the VFL.

My count is (1) Brayshaw. Yes, best 22 but clearly not ready and zero seconds form to go on. (2) Wagner. Exposed form very dicey and others have been much better performed in the VFL games.

Fine to experiment etc, but don't then give us but, more importantly the players, mixed messages. Guys like ANB must be spewing.

12 minutes ago, Undeeterred said:

I reckon they've lost the plot.

Inconsistent messaging now twice in a row. They keep banging on about bringing up ready players in good form from the VFL.

My count is (1) Brayshaw. Yes, best 22 but clearly not ready and zero seconds form to go on. (2) Wagner. Exposed form very dicey and others have been much better performed in the VFL games.

Fine to experiment etc, but don't then give us but, more importantly the players, mixed messages. Guys like ANB must be spewing.

ANB has had a delayed pre season and needs game time. Another effort like last week might see him in red and blue. We played Gus underdone and look at what happened. That is why CP5 is playing at Casey, to get match fit before he is launched. 

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Exactly - what happened to making the kids earn their spots? Just more throwing in those who aren't ready to the wolves.

Good luck to the guy and congrats to him but as far as the club goes this is a disgraceful decision.

I wouldn't call it a disgraceful decision, just an interesting one. He clearly impressed over the pre season, and while his NAB form wasn't flash, they clearly believe he can fit our structure and give us something off half back. 

Can he do it? I'm not sold yet, but let's hope that he can. 

1 minute ago, Wiseblood said:

I wouldn't call it a disgraceful decision, just an interesting one. He clearly impressed over the pre season, and while his NAB form wasn't flash, they clearly believe he can fit our structure and give us something off half back. 

Can he do it? I'm not sold yet, but let's hope that he can. 

Maybe not disgraceful - bemusing? I am completely bemused by this decision.

16 minutes ago, Undeeterred said:

I reckon they've lost the plot.

Inconsistent messaging now twice in a row. They keep banging on about bringing up ready players in good form from the VFL.

My count is (1) Brayshaw. Yes, best 22 but clearly not ready and zero seconds form to go on. (2) Wagner. Exposed form very dicey and others have been much better performed in the VFL games.

Fine to experiment etc, but don't then give us but, more importantly the players, mixed messages. Guys like ANB must be spewing.

Any chance a premiership coach who deals with these players daily has a better idea if he is ready for a game than fans on a forum? We have no idea what role Roos had in mind for him. Even if it is a strategic plan to give him a brief taste of afl early in the season to fire up he develop, I'd be all for that. These guys are experts in their field, we are Joe blows with nothing better to do than criticise anyone we can after one loss and praise the world after a win

28 minutes ago, tappysquads said:

Any chance a premiership coach who deals with these players daily has a better idea if he is ready for a game than fans on a forum? We have no idea what role Roos had in mind for him. Even if it is a strategic plan to give him a brief taste of afl early in the season to fire up he develop, I'd be all for that. These guys are experts in their field, we are Joe blows with nothing better to do than criticise anyone we can after one loss and praise the world after a win

Yeah you're right, they certainly got it right last week.

This type of thinking is ridiculous - 1) taking this approach we may as well shut down the forum as we'd have nothing left to discuss and 2) this kind of thinking (that those in positions of power know better than us) is what has got us in trouble in the past.

18 hours ago, tappysquads said:

Any chance a premiership coach who deals with these players daily has a better idea if he is ready for a game than fans on a forum? We have no idea what role Roos had in mind for him. Even if it is a strategic plan to give him a brief taste of afl early in the season to fire up he develop, I'd be all for that. These guys are experts in their field, we are Joe blows with nothing better to do than criticise anyone we can after one loss and praise the world after a win

I agree with you to some extent. But given our history in recent times, more often than not, forum members have had more of an idea than our coaches. Probably not during Roos time, although, a lot of posters were questioning his game day coaching early on, and it is still questionable. Just because we are forum members, and they are AFL coaches, it doesn't mean we cannot question - or criticize - them. It is basically what online forums are all about. That is why I do not envy anyone in the limelight.

48 minutes ago, Redleg said:

ANB has had a delayed pre season and needs game time. Another effort like last week might see him in red and blue. We played Gus underdone and look at what happened. That is why CP5 is playing at Casey, to get match fit before he is launched. 

Completely agree and that's how it should be, but then why are we telling everyone we're playing players who are ready, when they clearly aren't? Wagner is a long way off from being ready, has been given some exposure and been found wanting, and has no real exposed form different to that in the seconds. 

42 minutes ago, tappysquads said:

Any chance a premiership coach who deals with these players daily has a better idea if he is ready for a game than fans on a forum? We have no idea what role Roos had in mind for him. Even if it is a strategic plan to give him a brief taste of afl early in the season to fire up he develop, I'd be all for that. These guys are experts in their field, we are Joe blows with nothing better to do than criticise anyone we can after one loss and praise the world after a win

Well yeah, but we are talking about the same premiership coach who admitted in public that he made the wrong selection decision last week.

You can't just use 'premiership coach' interchangably with 'infallible'.

44 minutes ago, tappysquads said:

Any chance a premiership coach who deals with these players daily has a better idea if he is ready for a game than fans on a forum? We have no idea what role Roos had in mind for him. Even if it is a strategic plan to give him a brief taste of afl early in the season to fire up he develop, I'd be all for that. These guys are experts in their field, we are Joe blows with nothing better to do than criticise anyone we can after one loss and praise the world after a win

And on being given exposure in the seniors to develop - we've been given the messaging for three years now that this is the direction the club explicitly wants to move away from, so not sure why we would then U-turn and do it anyway.

The clubs commentary about "when they're ready" is directed primarily at draftees coming straight out of the underage comp. Blokes like Vandenberg, and in this case Wagner are referred to as "having a body that is ready". There is some confusion here between 'mature aged' and 'raw-aged'.

1 hour ago, Undeeterred said:

I reckon they've lost the plot.

Inconsistent messaging now twice in a row. They keep banging on about bringing up ready players in good form from the VFL.

My count is (1) Brayshaw. Yes, best 22 but clearly not ready and zero seconds form to go on. (2) Wagner. Exposed form very dicey and others have been much better performed in the VFL games.

Fine to experiment etc, but don't then give us but, more importantly the players, mixed messages. Guys like ANB must be spewing.

Presuming:

Stretch gets picked in the 22
Garland is being dropped, we've got 2 tall defenders in and Col needs to go back to Casey
Oscar Mc isn't really ready either and needs a game to prove his fitness
Michie, Terlich and Grimes have done little to show they are AFL standard this year
JKH, Hunt and Mitch White are still kids who haven't done much this year either
Pedersen and Frost are competing for a forward/ruck spot
All the young talls - King, King, Hulett, Weed etc aren't in contention to play
Clarry and Brayshaw are back to the 2's or rested
Petracca and Trengove are coming back from injuries

Then 'guys like ANB' is actually just ANB. So one 2nd year player with all of about 10 games of AFL and coming off an interrupted preseason has the right to be frustrated they were looked over. And it's not exactly like for like, Wagner is a skilled back flanker with a bit of height, ANB is a smaller inside mid who can play a bit of wing/half forward.

I'm hoping Brayshaw, Oliver (if dropped), Trenners, Petracca, Garland, Oscar, ANB and many others can all dominate for Casey, the guys in the team can play well and then we can get some legitimate selection pressure on. But as of this week there isn't a lot of competition for spots. So it's not a surprise a mature rookie gets the call.

 

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah you're right, they certainly got it right last week.

This type of thinking is ridiculous - 1) taking this approach we may as well shut down the forum as we'd have nothing left to discuss and 2) this kind of thinking (that those in positions of power know better than us) is what has got us in trouble in the past.

Yeh your right, if we can't be negative all the time why have forums? It's not like Oliver has had a fantastic start to the season, Trenners is on the verge of an amazing comeback, Petracca could debut any week now, we won 5 matches in a row, Gawn has a chance to put his hand up against Goldstien for the #1 this week, we are about to have record membership, etc etc. forums are simply for using hindsight to criticise MFC players and coaches

3 hours ago, waynewussell said:

The clubs commentary about "when they're ready" is directed primarily at draftees coming straight out of the underage comp. Blokes like Vandenberg, and in this case Wagner are referred to as "having a body that is ready". There is some confusion here between 'mature aged' and 'raw-aged'.

 

5 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

He's 21 and has had no experience playing in the AFL. He may not be a "kid" but he is under developed. What has he proven? Why does he get a pass straight to the seniors when others are made to "bang down the door" in the VFL (the way it should be)? I'm highly suspect of this decision, of course I'd love to be proven wrong but it doesn't fill me with confidence, in fact I can see it being a disaster if he has only 5-10 touches, is towelled up and made to look like a fool by one of their bigger forwards and panics under pressure causing even more turnovers in our back half (our achilles heel).

 

2 hours ago, tappysquads said:

we won 5 matches in a row

Must have missed that one, can you fill me in?

No one is saying have to be negative all the time - contrarily you are the one who is saying no one is allowed to be negative - ever. I appreciate the positivity but if its not balanced with the realism (or as you would say "negativity") then its just blustering hot air.

Step into the real world outside the MFC bubble - we have done not much for 10 years (some would say 50 years) and are incapable of gaining any credibility or respect in the wider footy community. Yet according to you its all sunshine and roses, difficult to understand the last DECADE in that context.

Edited April 8, 20169 yr by Dr. Gonzo

didnt say there's no room for criticism at all actually, responded to a post that said if we can't criticise we would have nothing to talk about.

And I'm not all sunshine and roses, I just think it's poor to say the coaches have lost the plot for giving a kid a debut before he's even played a game. He could come out and have 25 and give us some run off half back a couple games in a row and Roos would be a genius for selecting him. Bit of positivity goes a long way, especially from SUPPORTERS.

I manage about 150 people, and I learnt a while ago that your environment can often end up being a direct reflection of your attitude towards it. Theirs enough bagging MFC in the media without the fans constantly turning on the club aswell. 

Anyway, best of luck to the kid, Hope he has a cracker on debut and helps drag us over the line (and snots Thomas at some stage)

6 minutes ago, tappysquads said:

didnt say there's no room for criticism at all actually, responded to a post that said if we can't criticise we would have nothing to talk about.

And I'm not all sunshine and roses, I just think it's poor to say the coaches have lost the plot for giving a kid a debut before he's even played a game. He could come out and have 25 and give us some run off half back a couple games in a row and Roos would be a genius for selecting him. Bit of positivity goes a long way, especially from SUPPORTERS.

I manage about 150 people, and I learnt a while ago that your environment can often end up being a direct reflection of your attitude towards it. Theirs enough bagging MFC in the media without the fans constantly turning on the club aswell. 

Anyway, best of luck to the kid, Hope he has a cracker on debut and helps drag us over the line (and snots Thomas at some stage)

I take this as a statement of faith other than empirical knowledge, Essendon's performance last weekend notwithstanding.

Funk'n VVagner.

I'm still watching my way through Sunday's game for the first time at the moment, but from what I've seen Wagner hasn't seemed out of his depth.  He hit a ripper of a pass during the second quarter which showed great vision and execution and was getting himself involved a bit.  3 kicks, 5 handpasses and 4 tackles.

What's the verdict now he's played a game?

37 minutes ago, S_T said:

I'm still watching my way through Sunday's game for the first time at the moment, but from what I've seen Wagner hasn't seemed out of his depth.  He hit a ripper of a pass during the second quarter which showed great vision and execution and was getting himself involved a bit.  3 kicks, 5 handpasses and 4 tackles.

What's the verdict now he's played a game?

Yeah i thought he showed a bit, earnt himself another run but will be under pressure from below to keep showing that or he will lose his spot. Given the conditions it wasnt easy for defenders. I mean the wind was blowing though goals from everywhere. I'd give him this week and next then make a call on whether he is consistantly up to it or if he needs to go back down. At least then there be a clearer picture on what he needs to work on. I'd also like to see Hunt get a run so maybe if he keeps showing good VFL form he might get a go when Wagner gets dropped or has a rest. 

Edited April 13, 20169 yr by ArtificialWisdom

1 hour ago, S_T said:

I'm still watching my way through Sunday's game for the first time at the moment, but from what I've seen Wagner hasn't seemed out of his depth.  He hit a ripper of a pass during the second quarter which showed great vision and execution and was getting himself involved a bit.  3 kicks, 5 handpasses and 4 tackles.

What's the verdict now he's played a game?

It would seem that he was picked to play on Waite and by and large did a good job...

So far, so good. He looks tough around the contest and more importantly, made good decisions.

Wagner deserves a go at it and we need to try different players in order to get better ... he shows a bit of go which is always a good sign (Harmes is another who goes at the contest)

Some of our former senior players are going to have to shine to get more opportunities ... that's footy.