It's all getting a little bit funny now. I can't laugh about it during the 3 hours that we play each weekend (easily the worst 3 hours of my week) but I have now reached a point where I can laugh during the week. Jackson and Roos are so concerned that the players will go the 'full 186' on the weekend that they've had to throw the supporters under the bus to try and placate them.

This is such a simple game. If you bring effort then you compete on the scoreboard. You don't then you won't. We don't and haven't for a long time. That's not being negative, it's just a fact. Ask any neutral supporters who has been strong enough to sit through one of our games. Every single one that I have spoken to agrees that these blokes just don't want to compete. Scott Pendlebury said in an interview a few years ago something like 'AFL Football is an effort sport. If we bring high intensity we can compete with anyone, and if we don't we can lose to anyone'.

The most concerning thing I have heard from Roos was the other day when comparing Lachie Hendersen to James Frawley when he said Frawley still gave 100% to Melbourne up until the end of last season. If Frawley's last 2 or 3 years at MFC were examples of the 100% that Roos expects from our players then it's no wonder we get served up turds 2 out of every 3 weeks.

Our half forward line read;

HF: Michie Dawes Harmes

Did anyone actually expect us to score enough to win that game?

Yes. If you can force the opposition into turnovers 50 to 80 metres out from their goal, you can get the ball into an open forward line. And you force those turn overs by tackling, harassing and competing in the air. Then you run and spread and move the ball with intensity and don't jog around insipidly. You don't need great forward talent to score when you get the ball in like that.

If you're only prepared to compete hard in your own defensive 50 (and even that probably only occurs because we have 18 people jammed down there) it's much harder to generate a scoring opportunity because you have to get past 18 opposition players and you give the opposition heaps more time to get numbers back.

Indeed.

And if Bolton does a stellar job at Carlton, every Melbourne supporter will wonder if we went early on the Goodwin decision.... and if Alistair Clarkson decides he's open to leaving Hawthorn next year every Melbourne supporter will slash their wrists.... and so continues to the never ending cycle of MCFSS

5 Clarkson protoge's are now FT coaching. They have a good track record. maybe Lloyd is right when he says Roos' plan is outdated..

The most concerning thing I have heard from Roos was the other day when comparing Lachie Hendersen to James Frawley when he said Frawley still gave 100% to Melbourne up until the end of last season. If Frawley's last 2 or 3 years at MFC were examples of the 100% that Roos expects from our players then it's no wonder we get served up turds 2 out of every 3 weeks.

You can't have been watching the 100% Frawley's been giving Hawthorn then.

Evidence?

Coach's comments.

You can't have been watching the 100% Frawley's been giving Hawthorn then.

Yeah he's not much of a player and probably never was. But at HFC they at least expect him to go at 100%. During one game vs. GWS a few years ago I watched him literally walk behind Jeremy Cameron as he picked the ball up deep in the pocket, step around Frawley and have a snap at goal, to which Frawley stuck out one hand in an 'attempt' to smother. It was genuinely the worst single effort to compete I have ever seen in a professional sports match. And he did very similar things numerous times while playing for Melbourne. His classic play was when an opponent (not his direct opponent) was running towards goal and he would never leave his own man to try and pressure the guy. In many cases he just allowed blokes to run for metres and metres into the goal face to kick an uncontested goal.

If he puts in an effort like that at HFC, he will never play another game for them. Their culture and expectations dictate that.

I'm confident it's an attempt at deflection.

Much of the reason why Roos is here is to try to deflect attention as much as is possible from us while try to improve but lose games in the process.

PJ said it today: "We brought Roosy in with the primary aim to fix the culture and the leadership and create structures around our football club".

Notice how he didn't say "and to win games". Their primary goal with this club right now is to fix the ingrained problems that were left behind by previous administrations.

They want, as best as possible, to deflect attention from where it is deserved - underperforming coaches, underperforming players - to other areas. Hence, Roos continually talking about the past. Now, he's done it again, trying to talk about the negativity around the club.

Problem this time is that he's stuffed it up by pinning it on the supporters, making it sound like we're ungrateful sods who should just put up with things, but it all falls into the same aim of PJ's, which is trying to do anything other than say 'yep, we're struggling' or 'we're going to cull more players' or 'the players are so negative, it's all their fault'.

Agree with your connent about why PR and PJ are at the club but...on potting the supporters I think roosys first comment was that the supporters deserved better on sunday, the veil of negativity comment was simply calling It out I don't think he was having a go at the supporters for being negative

he was simply highlighting that the last 8 yrs have affected us all. Who could blame supporters for being naturally pessimistic or at least cautious before getting excited about turning a corner it's a roller coaster ride. We have every right to not accept the performances dished up over the past couple of weeks. He backtracked because it suggested the staff and administration were being negative which is obviously not great as that's what he and PJ are there to fundamentally correct

I'm ok with roosy calling it as it is..cos he's right, but I'm more concerned with how he's dealing with fixing it behind closed doors and with the players and administration. Because we are not privy to it and we only can go off what the players are doing on the field

Melbourne supporters have become negative for a reason Paul: its not because we lose, its because our players don't put in for 4 quarters.

And, we do not deserve to be whacked by ranting on public television.

You, want us to be positive right?

Well, tell the players to get the first plane back from Bali and put in a decent effort for the next 2 weeks!

Melbourne supporters have become negative for a reason Paul: its not because we lose, its because our players don't put in for 4 quarters.

And, we do not deserve to be whacked by ranting on public television.

You, want us to be positive right?

Well, tell the players to get the first plane back from Bali and put in a decent effort for the next 2 weeks!

Amen to that LH

What Caro doesn't see is what the 'veil of negativity' (with varying degrees of 'infection'), looks like in the playing group, :

14 current players from the 186 era and Neeld's tenure: Mark Jamar, Lynden Dunn, Colin Garland, Nathan Jones, Rohan Bail,Jake Spencer, Jack Grimes, Jeremy Howe, Jordie McKenzie, Jack Trengove, Jack Watts, Max Gawn, Jack Fitzpatrick,Tom McDonald

Plus 8 current players for Neelds tenure: Jimmy Toumpas, Jesse Hogan, Cameron Pedersen, Matt Jones, Chris Dawes, Dean Terlich, Jack Viney, Dean Kent

That is 22 current players who learnt:

- they didn't need to fight for their spots,

- to play as individuals rather than do team things.

- it was ok to not follow coaching instructions,

- to pick and choose when to perform

- it is easier to give platitudes and 'feel disappointed' about losing than work your guts out to win.

I could keep going about the bad behaviours but you get the drift.

'Reprogramming' those bad behaviours must be like turning the Titanic.

TBH, I don't think there is a coach, CEO etc that can do it.

Roos has gone the 'reprogramming' route, It has not worked.

Now cutting out the cancerous 'veil of negativity' is the only way to go.

Of the 22 players above I could only count 7 that have shown they can really change.

We won't cull the other 15 but the worst offenders must go regardless of their position, seniority, salary or whatever.

They can not stay at the club if their bad behaviours/mindset have continued under Roos et al.

Otherwise the risk of contagion to our young brigade is too high.

Roos is an astute judge of players he will make the right calls.

100 % agree.

5 Clarkson protoge's are now FT coaching. They have a good track record. maybe Lloyd is right when he says Roos' plan is outdated..

Maybe Lloyd is right. But Roos' thinking hasn't got old. Conversely, the AFL have done everything in their power to eliminate stoppages, which is where the Roos game plan starts and ends. I notice lately that umps sprint in to ball up even if no ruckman is there. That is one example.

Where I have faith though, is that Roos aint an old dog like Malthouse. I have faith in him to tweak. I actually liked some of his moves (McDonald on the ball). In 2016, Garlett needs to become a midfield for us. That is the key thing that must happen in my view.

And still Roos hasn't explained how the supporters' negative mindset impacts our players' abilities to play football.

None of us went into the Geelong game expecting us to win, and we did. Most of us thought we'd win on Sunday, and we didn't.

Roos and Co are obviously back paddling hard now, because they've probably had internal backlash by being called negative.

I get it, my work place sucks so hard and everyone here is negative. But I still do my job, and I don't blame my negativity if I miss something or forget to reply to an email etc...

I'm sick of the cop outs. If it's not the past, it's the future, it's the age of the list, it's the negative mindspace. FFS none of this explains why our coach can't get the player to compete in a consistent manner. I can take losses, but not competing is unacceptable and there is no excuse for it.

Grant Thomas has given Roosy a nice old wack on twitter.

"Your honour, I rise to defend Paul Roos and tender as evidence, this thread and, in fact, Demonland in its entirety. I rest my case."

"Your honour, I rise to defend Paul Roos and tender as evidence, this thread and, in fact, Demonland in its entirety. I rest my case."

You are defending the indefensible LDC

"Your honour, I rise to defend Paul Roos and tender as evidence, this thread and, in fact, Demonland in its entirety. I rest my case."

Are you seriously attempting to suggest that negative supporters led to the players laying 2 tackles in the first 20 minutes of football last week?

Or the negative supporters that went to the Geelong game expecting another thrashing did not impact on us winning?

Supporters are negative when they are dished up rubbish. What we have here is a case of cart before the horse. The negativity comes from the players lack of effort it does not cause it.

Paul Roos is trying to distract blame away from his inability to motivate the players.

Hey Paul Roos last week when you said the players needed to come out like maniacs, how did that go? You FAILED because you cannot lift the players, I fear that you have lost it and it is not the supporters fault.

Its always been the same issue, the spuds on our list.

Mr Roos if it is too hard for you.

Take your $3miilion from the last two years and enjoy Hawaii in 2016.

You are defending the indefensible LDC

Perhaps I should have made this comment in the negativity thread. I have absolutely no problems with what Paul Roos said (until he "clarified" it and effectively watered it down). Like any problem, you can't fix it until you recognise you have a problem. Our club oozes mediocrity and much of that is because of negative mindsets that prefer to be satisfied with brave losses than accept that you should be playing to win. Those negative mindsets are everywhere because we've been conditioned by 50 years without a Premiership, and more particularly the last 8 years without even a semblance of playing football that deserves to be praised.

I looked at the ladder in the newspaper last night and my first thought was how pleasing to see that Melbourne was above four other teams. That just means I'm so conditioned to us being in the bottom two that I find not being there a "positive". In fact, of course it's not good enough and I shouldn't be accepting of it. But, we've been so bad for so long, the negativity has warped my thinking.

And still Roos hasn't explained how the supporters' negative mindset impacts our players' abilities to play football.

I don't think he means this - he always waxes lyrical on every bloody thing that pops into his brain and this is another.

He is right by the way, but we see it as causation because of the terrible effort on the weekend but it got himself into this conversation admitting that he feels for the supporter base and then tried to explain his amazement at the things we think about when heading into the weekend.

Sit down, calm down, and think about what you think is going to happen in Perth this weekend... I know, I know...

Roos isn't used to that mindset, and he is attempting to, clumsily, explain why efforts like Sunday are taken with such fatalistic self-flagellation from Melbourne fans.

I am not going to burn him for this.

Now, those first quarters of the past three weeks...

Roos knows the problem.

He knows who isn't running from the GPS and his own observation.

He knows who isn't playing to his game plan.

He knows who can't win his own ball.

He knows who is playing 'individual' rather than 'team based' football

He knows who goes missing when the heat is on

He knows who hangs their head rather than dig in like Daniel Cross and NJones

But he:

a) doesn't know how to fix it; or

b) can't fix it mid season because of a lack of players to replace them with

a) is much more worrying and Roos' public comments are a big concern for mine. How do we play like crap for weeks in 1st quarters after he publicly comes out saying we need to play like maniacs? He looks genuinely flummoxed about what to do.

b) is quite possible. You can't throw out the whole team. You have to back the players in to do a job and then get rid of them at season end if they repeatedly show can't do the job. He can cut players he doesn't think can do the job. Eg he has clearly ruled the line through Jamar and McKenzie. Players like Watts he peseveres with because he has talent and he is backing his ability to bring that talent out. Wholesale culling is simply not possible the way the draft is arranged. So its a balance and he has shown in the past two drafts he gets this aspect of it. There aren't A grade mids waiting to join Melbourne and this is the biggest worry for for me. We can't get an elite mid to the club. The sales pitch doesn't work at melbourne because we are such crap.

Roos knows that not everyone is a star and that we need team role players. That is his hallmark as a coach. But he can't find them here at Melbourne.

I think Roos is astounded by the lack of on-field leadership ( I know I am). I dont think he has ever seen that before. Even in his playing days at FItzroy he had guys who led and won their positions.

We have a bunch of players that don't seem capable of winning their position or winning their own ball.

I hope Goodwin can coach because we are in for a world of more pain if he can't.

Perhaps I should have made this comment in the negativity thread. I have absolutely no problems with what Paul Roos said (until he "clarified" it and effectively watered it down). Like any problem, you can't fix it until you recognise you have a problem. Our club oozes mediocrity and much of that is because of negative mindsets that prefer to be satisfied with brave losses than accept that you should be playing to win. Those negative mindsets are everywhere because we've been conditioned by 50 years without a Premiership, and more particularly the last 8 years without even a semblance of playing football that deserves to be praised.

I looked at the ladder in the newspaper last night and my first thought was how pleasing to see that Melbourne was above four other teams. That just means I'm so conditioned to us being in the bottom two that I find not being there a "positive". In fact, of course it's not good enough and I shouldn't be accepting of it. But, we've been so bad for so long, the negativity has warped my thinking.

Now on that one LDC we are in total agreement I have been railing against that for years on here and I get told constantly I am negative because I don't appreciate an improved effort.

It just sticks in my gut that the members are the problem I do my bit I buy a membership I go to games I yell support from the outer, Cheer good effort on the field etc.

Perhaps I should just quit as it is obviously me that is the problem.

We the supporters are far too negative are we Roos?

Try dishing up the last few weeks to Richmond, Collingwood, Carlton, Essendon, Hawthorn, Adelaide, Port Adelaide, WestCoast supporters. Your head would be on a stick.

Blame the supporters all you like, we haven't failed the club because we are still paying membership. What about you? Would you be happy to show the last 3 weeks of MFC games as the mark you have left on football? The insipid performances of the players the last 3 weeks is a direct result of Paul Roos not the supporters. Man up, make the tough decisions show some god damn spine, and then the players might. Until then the supporters keep this club going and don't you forget it.

Roos has mentioned that the players are already on their end of season trip well maybe just maybe Roos is already on his own end of season trip to Hawaii!

Results suggest they maybe.

Roos knows the problem.

He knows who isn't running from the GPS and his own observation.

He knows who isn't playing to his game plan.

He knows who can't win his own ball.

He knows who is playing 'individual' rather than 'team based' football

He knows who goes missing when the heat is on

He knows who hangs their head rather than dig in like Daniel Cross and NJones

But he:

a) doesn't know how to fix it; or

b) can't fix it mid season because of a lack of players to replace them with

a) is much more worrying and Roos' public comments are a big concern for mine. How do we play like crap for weeks in 1st quarters after he publicly comes out saying we need to play like maniacs? He looks genuinely flummoxed about what to do.

b) is quite possible. You can't throw out the whole team. You have to back the players in to do a job and then get rid of them at season end if they repeatedly show can't do the job. He can cut players he doesn't think can do the job. Eg he has clearly ruled the line through Jamar and McKenzie. Players like Watts he peseveres with because he has talent and he is backing his ability to bring that talent out. Wholesale culling is simply not possible the way the draft is arranged. So its a balance and he has shown in the past two drafts he gets this aspect of it. There aren't A grade mids waiting to join Melbourne and this is the biggest worry for for me. We can't get an elite mid to the club. The sales pitch doesn't work at melbourne because we are such crap.

Roos knows that not everyone is a star and that we need team role players. That is his hallmark as a coach. But he can't find them here at Melbourne.

I think Roos is astounded by the lack of on-field leadership ( I know I am). I dont think he has ever seen that before. Even in his playing days at FItzroy he had guys who led and won their positions.

We have a bunch of players that don't seem capable of winning their position or winning their own ball.

I hope Goodwin can coach because we are in for a world of more pain if he can't.

(b)

...and if this can't be fixed it won't matter if Goodwin is Norm Smith reincarnate.