Plenty of fair points about Jones, but still, real leadership inspires, and causes others to walk tall, to rise above themselves. Out of all we have, I think Hogan looks likeliest to do that.

To lead you have to be at the front, you have to have clear purpose that gets the rest to hurry up a bit, and at the end of the day you need to have taken them somewhere. Not just been among them, doing whatever you do when you are shuffling forwards and backwards and round and round in circles....

Actually, I want to see a leader who changes Jack Watts' sense of urgency and self-confidence. I don't reckon bullying worked, so we need a leader who gets what's going on in these underperforming guys whose undoubted desire is to play well. I want to see a leader who can get inside the heads of our under-performers. These players need to be led - obviously. Nothing really wrong with that - like needing to be coached. But their being led or coached effectively only happen when there's a leader or a coach who sees exactly what needs to be done. Sees his team and understands what will motivate and energise them. If nobody at the club can do that, then we haven't yet found the sort of leader we need.

Our current problem is either the players (no change possible there at present, and hard to make huge gains in the off-season; so i hope that's not the only answer we can come up with), or it's the coaching (everything that could be done there has surely been done, and done well), or it's the on-field leadership that's failing. I'm going with leadership - the club needs to improve that area, through professional development of the incumbents, and probably through targeted recruiting (a la the recruiting of Ditterich to Melbourne, or Barassi to Carlton). Roos gets the players fired up and it lasts a bit, but out on the ground they rapidly wilt under pressure. The team leaders are out there...

I agree. We have an absolute failure of on-field leadership when things start to go awry. The good news is that leadership is not necessarily something that people are born with...it can be taught, it can be learnt! My guess is that the coaches will be trying (at the moment, with little obvious success) to teach Nathan Jones and the others in the LG, what they should be doing.

People who say on here that it's simply a matter of setting the example are deluding themselves. It's simply not enough. Leaders, by definition, are expected to set the example and,if not, should not be considered for the LG. It's when things start to go wrong during the game, that's when the leaders have to stand up. Too often our leaders become invisible at that point. Just not good enough.

The fact that Lynden Dunn is our vice captain says it all really.

I accept we had to rebuild, I accept we had to rid ourselves of dud players, I accept that the club had to bring in a A grade coaching team and get the off field right.

This rebuild and rebuild on top of a rebuild is taking far too long ........far too long........far too long!! I will not accept our teams continued inconsistency and poor efforts every other week. I pay good money to belong to this club and I'm just about had enough of it all.

How much does this club expect of it's supporters ....honestly this has to turn around quicker than it is.

you don't have a choice soidee, if you want to follow this club, as this club has to follow the rules as all clubs do, now, I hope.

so unless we find stars from Ireland, the USA, Fiji, or the Outer Limits, then it will take, as long as it takes to get things right. jumping up & down, & stamping feet won't get it done.

so we do the tried & the true, with good off-field personnel in charge & hope things will turn around.

We need a plan b players wont win there position all game most of the time so maybe when we sense a shift make some moves . Jones drags boak to the forward pocket and then runs as a link player dragging him away from the play negating his organisational influence . Garland and Hogan come into center bounces to provide strength and re enforce the dam wall .

We man up not giving them a spare and make sure our defense is tight no room given . Momemntum shifts are part of the game we dont have a grade talent so need to share the load and provide the players with some help .

yes Viney plays for the jumper. Give him a job and he will do it

Doesn't make him Captain

Whats your criteria then WYL? Wasn't it Viney that addressed the playing group after his first game, something along the line of "this crap is unnaceptable". If your criteria is "most skilful" player well that makes it Watts and no further comment is required.

Whats your criteria then WYL? Wasn't it Viney that addressed the playing group after his first game, something along the line of "this crap is unnaceptable". If your criteria is "most skilful" player well that makes it Watts and no further comment is required.

Got nothing to do with just skill mate.

Leadership attitude people are either born with or not.

Jones wishes he had it but doesn't. I feel for him but he aint a Captain. Nor in my opinion is Viney.

Viney is a bull not a Captain

I see Captain in Brayshaw and T Mac

Ollie Wines had it and we blew it....

you don't have a choice soidee, if you want to follow this club, as this club has to follow the rules as all clubs do, now, I hope.

so unless we find stars from Ireland, the USA, Fiji, or the Outer Limits, then it will take, as long as it takes to get things right. jumping up & down, & stamping feet won't get it done.

so we do the tried & the true, with good off-field personnel in charge & hope things will turn around.

I know I have no choice DL. Just venting .....but I don't sway from the fact that this club and more pointedly the players are taking too long to improve. The snail pace of improvement is just not good enough at this level. I'm at the stage where I would be happy for the club to pull out all stops to buy players who don't need 10 years to improve 5% such as Dunn, etc etc

I know I have no choice DL. Just venting .....but I don't sway from the fact that this club and more pointedly the players are taking too long to improve. The snail pace of improvement is just not good enough at this level. I'm at the stage where I would be happy for the club to pull out all stops to buy players who don't need 10 years to improve 5% such as Dunn, etc etc

I think the new footy dept are taking the fastest way currently available to them now,,, but differently to the past footy dept's of recent times. But we all may not understand their methods of doing it, just yet.

team selection is a way of performing this duty, but may not always be the best for short-term ladder positioning. not making mistakes re list-management at seasons end, is crucial to gaining ground on opposition clubs.

We've made a huge mistake by putting recruits from other clubs into the leadership group immediately. We shouldn't have a leadership group if new players to the club are considered leaders

What REALLY scares me about this list (and club ultimately) is that when the white flag goes up it effects the entire team instantaneously.

Yesterday the whole team stopped within 30 seconds. Not a fightback from one player...

Highly worrying after 2 years of Roos and assistants....

Got nothing to do with just skill mate.

Leadership attitude people are either born with ...

Simply wrong, I think. I've seen many good leaders learn how to lead by taking their cue from what other good leaders do and also to be taught what to do. Leadership is just another skill, albeit a lot rarer than most. I think the reason for this is that leaders (again, by definition) must have a base of excellence upon which they can build on their leadership skills. Unfortunately, our recent home-grown crop of leaders have not had the benefit of great mentors to assist them.

I think Roos has probably got it right by focussing initially on the playing group as a whole but, at the same time, probably trying to help Jones make the next step. The investment will probably be worthwhile in that, at least by recognising Jones ' contribution, he signed a new contract and anything else will be a bonus. In the meantime, We still might be able to attract some ready made leadership if we can continue to improve.

absolutely correct with no disrespect to N Jones.

He does not have it is his DNA

i wish he did & i bet he does to, but it aint there.

T Mac has it. Brayshaw has it....

You are hilarious. You have changed your tune completely.

You are hilarious. You have changed your tune completely.

no i have not. Jonesy loves surfing and playing footy

He is not a natural leader. He is trying real hard but it is not a natural trait.

Simply wrong, I think. I've seen many good leaders learn how to lead by taking their cue from what other good leaders do and also to be taught what to do. Leadership is just another skill, albeit a lot rarer than most. I think the reason for this is that leaders (again, by definition) must have a base of excellence upon which they can build on their leadership skills. Unfortunately, our recent home-grown crop of leaders have not had the benefit of great mentors to assist them.

I think Roos has probably got it right by focussing initially on the playing group as a whole but, at the same time, probably trying to help Jones make the next step. The investment will probably be worthwhile in that, at least by recognising Jones ' contribution, he signed a new contract and anything else will be a bonus. In the meantime, We still might be able to attract some ready made leadership if we can continue to improve.

it's not wrong at all.

You can see leadership in the playground of a kindergarten

People either have it or they don't

Jones is a great example because he wants to do it but the reality is that when he is shut down

He cannot counter...

I have seen it to often. He can lead against a mediocre side but will never triumphh over an elite midfield.

obviously its about getting the weakest competitors out of the side, as we can replace their talents. but remember we are still rebuilding & still teaching & developing, so some will come good, & others never will; time is something we have, but patience is short.

rome didn't destroy itself in one week, & it wasn't rebuilt overnight; but it wyl happen.

With due respect we have been rebuilding for nearly a bloody decade. We have been promised lights at the end of tunnels. We have been let down again and at.

It is (almost) more frustrating for members and fans being teased by these "great starts" then being run over than being run over from the first bounce, as we have been used to.

Just give us some consistency, please, and some hope.

I have supported this club for 62 years.......other than the first decade I have been teased all too often.

Bring it on Paul, Peter.

no i have not. Jonesy loves surfing and playing footy

He is not a natural leader. He is trying real hard but it is not a natural trait.

Jones has been our best player for years but he had little or no influence on our game win or lose. He does the same things every game usually to the same high personal standard. He does not need to be led to get the best out of him but he can't lead others to his standards either. Just soldiers along with the flow. Seriously we should look for another captain who can move things along for his teamates.

Jones has been our best player for years but he had little or no influence on our game win or lose. He does the same things every game usually to the same high personnel standard. He does not need to be led to get the best out of him but he can't lead others to his standards either.

But when he is negated his output becomes almost zero

It has happened often.

He is a dam good blue collar worker. I have always thought that

Yes he is a better Captain than Grimes & Trengove but almost anything was better than that complete disaster.

Captaincy does not sit natural on his shoulders...imo

With due respect we have been rebuilding for nearly a bloody decade. We have been promised lights at the end of tunnels. We have been let down again and at.

It is (almost) more frustrating for members and fans being teased by these "great starts" then being run over than being run over from the first bounce, as we have been used to.

Just give us some consistency, please, and some hope.

I have supported this club for 62 years.......other than the first decade I have been teased all too often.

Bring it on Paul, Peter.

if you want the game to be easier to become competitive once a club comes down the ladder & must reform the talents. Then get rid of all these rotations they have today. Make the game open up Via players fatiguing once again, as it was. When the game had more open space, young players could come straight into contention as a strong player, on physical ability & athleticism, & personal disposal skills, individual footy IQ, & mental focus.

take all the space away & all of a sudden its not man on man, with fatiguing bodies; but players playing off one another, blocking up space between opponents, & the team set-plays & strategies take away any space or time for talented individuals to ply their skills.

this is why kids take a long time to establish these days, & why so many just fail. These team strategies are ruining many careers, & the game; because once a clubs list is bereft, it takes years & years of building & of teaching, & also building those players who can play without space, to be able to run all game in bursts.

this makes the teams up top, able to stay up top with defensive strategies, & very good list management. see Clarko's hawks. but others cannot catch up once fallen behind in the list stakes.

add free agency & it just magnify's the problems.

simple cut back rotations so that players DO fatigue and cannot keep running, they will have to go back to being specialist position players, (the rolling maul will end) & more space will open up the this game will become beautiful once again. & it will be very easy to sit back & enjoy the game again with passion, not having to overwork the brain on your weekends off, watching what should be a relaxing & exhilarating experience.

we'll be able to walk out of the ground with a smile on the dial, instead of a frown, & a headache & eye ache from trying to see who's on the field, & who is not.

it's not wrong at all.

1/-You can see leadership in the playground of a kindergarten

2/- People either have it or they don't

3/- Jones is a great example because he wants to do it but the reality is that when he is shut down

He cannot counter...

4/- I have seen it to often. He can lead against a mediocre side but will never triumphh over an elite midfield.

My numbers added:

1/- no, you can't actually. You're much more likely to identify an introvert or extrovert in the playground. Both types are potentially good leaders. Jones, I think, is an introvert but so is Selwood, so is Judd.

2/- leaders are nurtured, not born. Not genetic.

3/- Jones at least has the desire to lead. Let's hope he has the potential to turn this desire into reality rather than writing him off.

4/- I agree that this is the current situation but am yet to be convinced that this cannot change.

Then again, what do I know? I still think JW will come good!

Got nothing to do with just skill mate.

Leadership attitude people are either born with or not.

Jones wishes he had it but doesn't. I feel for him but he aint a Captain. Nor in my opinion is Viney.

Viney is a bull not a Captain

I see Captain in Brayshaw and T Mac

Ollie Wines had it and we blew it....

What claptrap.

Viney has shown more leadership than Wines, even if only through necessity.

I, for one, am sick of the self-flagellation over us not drafting Wines.

He's come on, being able to be the 4th-6th best midfielder in his team, and having better players around, so when he doesn't perform, it's nowhere near as obvious. He was drafted to Port, we had our chance but pulled the trigger on Toumpas (which IIRC had all and sundry over the moon on here at the time), but to say he is a better leader than Viney on exposed form? Come on, WYL. That goes beyond revisionism.

What claptrap.

Viney has shown more leadership than Wines, even if only through necessity.

I, for one, am sick of the self-flagellation over us not drafting Wines.

He's come on, being able to be the 4th-6th best midfielder in his team, and having better players around, so when he doesn't perform, it's nowhere near as obvious. He was drafted to Port, we had our chance but pulled the trigger on Toumpas (which IIRC had all and sundry over the moon on here at the time), but to say he is a better leader than Viney on exposed form? Come on, WYL. That goes beyond revisionism.

excuses Dr. Only so you feel better...

My numbers added:

1/- no, you can't actually. You're much more likely to identify an introvert or extrovert in the playground. Both types are potentially good leaders. Jones, I think, is an introvert but so is Selwood, so is Judd.

2/- leaders are nurtured, not born. Not genetic.

3/- Jones at least has the desire to lead. Let's hope he has the potential to turn this desire into reality rather than writing him off.

4/- I agree that this is the current situation but am yet to be convinced that this cannot change.

Then again, what do I know? I still think JW will come good!

What makes you think Selwood and Judd are introverts? Because they don't engage the media? That doesn't make them introverts. They're both very vocal and highly critical of their teammates. They hold their teammates to very high standards. Haven't you heard the stories about Selwood?

Jones is undoubtedly an introvert but really that sums up this club. The likes of Brayshaw and Hogan will lead this club to a flag. Jones is just a filler. Love the bloke but his being captain just further exemplifies our issues atm.

Certainly have and I suspect Selwood didn't pop out of the womb holding his brothers to account. Over time he has no doubt grown confident about his own capabilities and is comfortable demanding the best of his teammates. He had the benefit of a host of strong leaders providing guidance and example and was surrounded by some of the best players in the game. Our situation has been a little different. Our leaders need to demand those standards from our squad but we have very few (if any) who can consistently deliver the required standard themselves. IIRC Judd wasn't keen to take on the WCE captaincy and said much the same thing with Carlton. He might have been the only one whose performances justified the selection. Too early to write Jones off...particularly in light of the lack of alternatives.

It's Age Vs Experience. We don't have the youngest list, but look at the experience of the players we do have.

How many 100 and 200 gamers have we got? And of those players, how many of them know how to build and lead a winning team and develop a winning culture?

I agree with those who say this year's trade period is important. We must bring the right players in, and make tough calls on those players that are not going anywhere.

What REALLY scares me about this list (and club ultimately) is that when the white flag goes up it effects the entire team instantaneously.

Yesterday the whole team stopped within 30 seconds. Not a fightback from one player...

Highly worrying after 2 years of Roos and assistants....

Totally agree with this. We got 24 points up, then our approach completely changed. I don't know if we got tired or lazy or both. We stopped running, we were short passing, were second to the ball, and were trailing our opponents. We were basically inviting Port back into the contest.

At the point the coach and the senior players should have realised the game was turning and should have acted. I wouldn't have minded us playing with 9 defenders for ten minutes, just to get past the inevitable period where Port realised we had stopped and started bombarding the goals.

Instead we waited until Port had kicked five quick goals and completely taken control before we did anything.