THE SAGA CONTINUES - WADA APPEALS

[beelzebub 22,703]

I suppose there is always the notion there are two basic elements to this monstrosity of an occurrence. Firstly that anyone or group would set out upon such an ad-hoc misadventure into chemical enhancement of a team without knowing what it really was they were using or any or all of its down side, let alone imperial benefits. That this was obviously beyond pushing an envelope or why so clandestine and nefarious. Those seeking to undertake such a wrong doing need to be hauled before the powers that be and punished. Its the second component which strangely ( for mine ) divide many. The idea that that the players were but pawns. The players are without doubt complicit but i can see how in some manner they are also the victims of naivety, stupidity and blind unfettered 'club worship' at best but foolish and self destructing, uncaring deferal of responsibilities at worst.

I truly have no sympathy for any of them. The club are ratbags for having started it and now still persisting with their re-invention of what took place. Its beyond reprehensible, beyond scandalous to me it smacks of the criminal. The club should be dealt with in that manner and Im of the opinion Worksafe will do just that.

The players simply cant evade the notion they did wrong. They bought into the scheme . For some it may well have been through peer pressure and such but where are all the mentors, the guardians, the parents. I dont blame many of them per se ( parents ) , though Watson's actions as a father for mine border on the despicable having effectively sold out his sons welfare for the betterment of the club. Given everything thats transpired I would have expected a break away group of parents. Those who place more reliance in their own gut intuition and devotion to their kids than playing along with any maniacal scheme over-seen by those with only self interest at heart

These parents have much to answer for in my opinion. Theyve made some quasi faustian deal if only at the level of co-conspirators by not blowing any whistle, though I do wonder in this day and age whether some weighed up the simple financial inducement to remain schtum !

WADA has limitations of the penalties it can impose on the club but it should throw every single one it can as a message to all "You dont do this " this and of itself would also I should think help other authorities like WorkSafe find their direction and goal in dealing with those that set about such a heinous program. As to the players theres no running away. They took it all on board and its ultimately irrelevant as to the how and why only that they did and if you do it, you should get done.

[Ted Lasso 17,307]

Don't get the sense wada would have any interest in doing anything other than destroying them bb

Anyone heard from sanity prevails??

[Macca 16,174]

To me you have argued against yourself. To me it is key that it was 34 players not one player.

From the minute you walk through the door of an AFL club it is all team team team .Team rules, team meetings, travelling as a team, fly the flag for your teammate, don't let the team down - you don't question - you just accept as part of the team.

So the coach and administration from within the club stand up in front of the team and say we are putting you on supplement program - it is approved and kosher. This is completely different from a single player taken aside and injected or worse - someone from outside the club. This is your club requiring compliance to the team ethos which is drilled into these players day in and day out.

I understand why the players need to be whacked as it is clear that players have to be responsible for what they take but I also have a certain amount of sympathy for the players. My contempt for the coach and administrators knows no bounds for breaking that all important trust of the players.

The day of putting your trust in any club to do the right thing by the TEAM was completely over the day the coach and administrators stood up in front of the group at Essendon and said - don't worry - this is all above board.

If one player only acts upon himself to allow himself to be injected hundreds of times then isn't that on the player? Do you honestly believe that the public would have any sympathy for him if he acted alone?

My argument is a kind of strength in numbers argument - because there's so many of them (34), they must have been duped (according to the general public)

In the public's eyes, they can't see how all 34 players could have all bought into an injection program (I can by the way)

Narrow it down to one person only and things are seen differently. Are the 2 pies players who have tested positive going to get any sympathy?

How on earth is that arguing against myself?

I understand your sympathetic approach but I don't agree with that approach.

[chook fowler 18,555]

If one player only acts upon himself to allow himself to be injected hundreds of times then isn't that on the player? Do you honestly believe that the public would have any sympathy for him if he acted alone?

My argument is a kind of strength in numbers argument - because there's so many of them (34), they must have been duped (according to the general public)

In the public's eyes, they can't see how all 34 players could have all bought into an injection program (I can by the way)

Narrow it down to one person only and things are seen differently. Are the 2 pies players who have tested positive going to get any sympathy

How on earth is that arguing against myself?

I understand your sympathetic approach but I don't agree with that approach.

The obvious difference is that this program was put in place by the players employer with all the reassurances that it was above board. There would have been a lot of implied pressure to conform and it would take a very independent minded and strong personality to resist. The culprits here are the clubs hierarchy and not the players and it is they who should be pursued by WADA and Worksafe.

I wonder if there has been any precedent for this world wide - if not WADA may be wanting to send a strong message by pursuing this case.

[Macca 16,174]

The obvious difference is that this program was put in place by the players employer with all the reassurances that it was above board. There would have been a lot of implied pressure to conform and it would take a very independent minded and strong personality to resist. The culprits here are the clubs hierarchy and not the players and it is they who should be pursued by WADA and Worksafe.

I wonder if there has been any precedent for this world wide - if not WADA may be wanting to send a strong message by pursuing this case.

The young chinese swimmers didn't really have a choice - many of them were quite young when that countries drug program was in full swing and because of that fact, they could be easily coerced into taking various coloured pills given to them by their coaches.

The East German athletes - much the same. Some of the older ones might have known better but they may not have wanted to take on the stasi.

Besides all that, not many people had sympathy for them then or now. We have double standards in this country when it comes to drugs in sport.

Players like Watson, Stanton and Fletcher should have known better.

[Dees2014 2,377]

Samantha Lane in the Age this morning has really nailed the true essence of what has happened in the last 36 hours

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/wada-appeal-a-good-outcome-for-those-who-care-about-clean-sport-20150512-ggzft8.html

I think that is the best article I have read explaining dispassionately why the WADA appeal is so important and why it should be seen as a blessing not a curse.

Let's hope some rusted on dons fanatics read it and take note. Robbo anyone? Now that would be asking a lot! He wouldn't understand it anyway - far too sophisticated arguments for him!

Edited May 12, 2015 by Dees2014

[jnrmac 19,481]

I wonder whether the HS have deliberately listed the 34 names temporarily released by CAS, when other media have to date refrained, to make a point of CAS's apparent breach of guidelines? Helps EFC and sympathisers undermine CAS processes and case?

This.

[nutbean 8,837]

The young chinese swimmers didn't really have a choice - many of them were quite young when that countries drug program was in full swing and because of that fact, they could be easily coerced into taking various coloured pills given to them by their coaches.

The East German athletes - much the same. Some of the older ones might have known better but they may not have wanted to take on the stasi.

Besides all that, not many people had sympathy for them then or now. We have double standards in this country when it comes to drugs in sport.

Players like Watson, Stanton and Fletcher should have known better.

I agree that they should have known better however.....

I have talked to an ex footballer and he is conflicted because he said all players are well aware that the responsibility ends with them on putting anything into their systems. He did say that unless you have experienced an AFL environment you simply can't appreciate the extent that clubs go to uphold the ethos of "team". I asked the obvious question - "what would you have done". He said that if it went down as suggested - the whole team addressed on the program that was declared safe and legal he probably wouldn't have questioned. He is gobsmacked that an administration could stand in front of the group and declare a program safe and legal that was not. He understands why it wasn't questioned. However, he doesn't understand how it was not questioned outside the club by parents and managers.

I don't compare this with the Chinese swimmers and East German athletes - relays aside - those are still individual sports not team based sports.

An interesting aside - he further suggested that if the players do have any adverse health issues down the track - it is a class action from the players with too many zero's on it to even contemplate.

Note - do not confuse my sympathetic stance on the players with the understanding that they need to be punished.

Edited May 12, 2015 by nutbean

[rjay 24,178]

I find it interesting that Hird has introduced Ian Robson into the discussion. I think Robson has got off pretty easily to date by resigning early in the affair. It was a smart move and he has gone on with his career without having to be tied up in this mess.

Hird saying he saw the documentation with Robson before he handed it over to ASADA has tipped a bucket I reckon.

[Macca 16,174]

I agree that they should have known better however.....

I have talked to an ex footballer and he is conflicted because he said all players are well aware that the responsibility ends with them on putting anything into their systems. He did say that unless you have experienced an AFL environment you simply can't appreciate the extent that clubs go to uphold the ethos of "team". I asked the obvious question - "what would you have done". He said that if it went down as suggested - the whole team addressed on the program that was declared safe and legal he probably wouldn't have questioned. He is gobsmacked that an administration could stand in front of the group and declare a program safe and legal that was not. He understands why it wasn't questioned. However, he doesn't understand how it was not questioned outside the club by parents and managers.

I don't compare this with the Chinese swimmers and East German athletes - relays aside - those are still individual sports not team based sports.

An interesting aside - he further suggested that if the players do have any adverse health issues down the track - it is a class action from the players with too many zero's on it to even contemplate.

Note - do not confuse my sympathetic stance on the players with the understanding that they need to be punished.

If that ex footballer had have said that stuff to me I wouldn't have been surprised but I still would have questioned it all

I can see your point 'nb' but I just have a different viewpoint.

People are responsible for their own actions ... I do have a degee of sympathy for the young draftees at the time - not sure they can be judged differently though.

[jnrmac 19,481]

I suppose there is always the notion there are two basic elements to this monstrosity of an occurrence. Firstly that anyone or group would set out upon such an ad-hoc misadventure into chemical enhancement of a team without knowing what it really was they were using or any or all of its down side, let alone imperial benefits. That this was obviously beyond pushing an envelope or why so clandestine and nefarious. Those seeking to undertake such a wrong doing need to be hauled before the powers that be and punished. Its the second component which strangely ( for mine ) divide many. The idea that that the players were but pawns. The players are without doubt complicit but i can see how in some manner they are also the victims of naivety, stupidity and blind unfettered 'club worship' at best but foolish and self destructing, uncaring deferal of responsibilities at worst.

I truly have no sympathy for any of them. The club are ratbags for having started it and now still persisting with their re-invention of what took place. Its beyond reprehensible, beyond scandalous to me it smacks of the criminal. The club should be dealt with in that manner and Im of the opinion Worksafe will do just that.

The players simply cant evade the notion they did wrong. They bought into the scheme . For some it may well have been through peer pressure and such but where are all the mentors, the guardians, the parents. I dont blame many of them per se ( parents ) , though Watson's actions as a father for mine border on the despicable having effectively sold out his sons welfare for the betterment of the club. Given everything thats transpired I would have expected a break away group of parents. Those who place more reliance in their own gut intuition and devotion to their kids than playing along with any maniacal scheme over-seen by those with only self interest at heart

These parents have much to answer for in my opinion. Theyve made some quasi faustian deal if only at the level of co-conspirators by not blowing any whistle, though I do wonder in this day and age whether some weighed up the simple financial inducement to remain schtum !

WADA has limitations of the penalties it can impose on the club but it should throw every single one it can as a message to all "You dont do this " this and of itself would also I should think help other authorities like WorkSafe find their direction and goal in dealing with those that set about such a heinous program. As to the players theres no running away. They took it all on board and its ultimately irrelevant as to the how and why only that they did and if you do it, you should get done.

Agree.

No doubt Hird and his cohorts tried to push the envelope (Coll/Carlton etc 'they are all doing it') and brought in a guy of dubious repute. They sold the story to the players (Bomba is here and look what Robbo and Danky dd for Geelong).

Hird also has previous form with Charters (that hasn't really been pushed by any media - How did he recover from some of his horrific injuries and perform so well etc etc)

They actively sought to bypass the club doctor AND nutritionist - ie: anyone that raised doubts

The records are conveniently gone

The players may have drunk the Kool Aid but it is their responsiblity. If WADA can't prove that waht teh platyers took they can whack the club for poor governance etc. The interest will be whether the AFL penalties already served by the EFC will be deemed enough.

My feeling is WADA will be looking for scalps but at the very least to whack:

- the Aust Govt for having lax laws relating to compelling witnesses to give evidence and a weak drug enforcement culture

- the AFL for having a lax regime and pizzpoor supervision of clubs

- the EFC coaches and administration that should never be allowed near a club again

The players may well get off but there is going to be a lot of collateral damage to the integrity of Australian sport. We will all suffer from the reputational damage these feral EFC people have inflicted on our sporting community. It makes me sick that the media and acolytes are supporting the EFC saying 'its unfair' 'enough is enough' 'they are good blokes' etc Every Olympian in this country would be sick to their stomachs about what these cheats have gotten away with.

[jnrmac 19,481]

I find it interesting that Hird has introduced Ian Robson into the discussion. I think Robson has got off pretty easily to date by resigning early in the affair. It was a smart move and he has gone on with his career without having to be tied up in this mess.

Hird saying he saw the documentation with Robson before he handed it over to ASADA has tipped a bucket I reckon.

What has Hird said about Robson?

[ManDee 7,096]

Hi everyone.

I do really feel for Essendon right now. They were my 2nd favourite team in 2012 so I still have a soft spot for them

Here are my favourite players from that list.

Thomas Bellchambers

Alex Browne

Jake Carlisle

Travis Colyer

Stewart Crameri

Alwyn Davey

Luke Davis

Cory Dell’Olio

Ricky Dyson

Dustin Fletcher

Scott Gumbleton

Kyle Hardingham

Dyson Heppell

Michael Hibberd

David Hille

Heath Hocking

Cale Hooker

Ben Howlett

Michael Hurley

Leroy Jetta

Brendan Lee

Sam Lonergan

Nathan Lovett-Murray

Mark McVeigh

Jake Melksham

Angus Monfries

David Myers

Tayte Pears

Brent Prismall

Patrick Ryder

Henry Slattery

Brent Stanton

Ariel Steinberg

Jobe Watson

Hi, Sendoff,

Thanks for the list of your favorite 34 past and present Essendon players.

Edited May 12, 2015 by ManDee

[jnrmac 19,481]

Hi, Sendoff,

Thanks for the list of your favorite 34 past and present Essendon players.

Ha ha 'Spike' McVeigh. The impartial commentator on this saga! My foot.

[Sir Why You Little 35,318]

So it was ASADA who destroyed all the written spreadsheets was it James....

That makes so much sense

Liar.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,534]

Loved when Gerard said 'but you don't and you can't prove it because if you could have you would have' when Hird said the players didn't take anything illegal.

Smacked him in the face with the cloud that will hang over him for the rest of his life. Ouch.

Beautifully written. But when you think about it literally, Old Dee's wet lettuce (or was it a wet tram ticket) would actually be more effective.

I was surprised at how well Whateley handled the interview and how he pulled Hird up on his call that they players were innocent.

A few random things to note that will have an impact on the CAS hearing:-

* the Workcover investigation could throw some light on the nature of the substance ingested by the players. Hird claims it was "thymodulin" or something labelled as such. The Tribunal found that it was not that at all - it was either TB4 or something else but it couldn't be comfortably satisfied as to which of them.

* Dank has appealed the AFL Tribunal's verdict against him. If he follows the appeal through he's going to have to give some evidence and be subjected to cross examination.

* the appeal involves reopening the case and a rehearing of the matter. WADA will therefore have the benefit of knowing what factors caused the AFL Tribunal to come to its conclusions and refocusing the direction of its presentation to the Court.

Just to clarify, who hear's Dank's appeal (should he go through with it)? You've said that WADA will have the benefit of the information. Is that because the appeal is to them or because the appeal will be heard in a manner which will produce evidence which then becomes available to WADA?

One aspect of this case which I hope somebody in the media cottons on to is the massive slap in the face WADA have just delivered the AFL regarding their integrity. By ASADA declining to appeal through the AFL's own system and then WADA taking it right out of their hands, they have basically said that they have no faith in an impartial judgement being delivered by an AFL body. In essence, WADA and ASADA have just told the world they think the tribunal is crooked and delivers results based on the wishes of the AFL and not the evidence.

I don't think this inference can be made. Appeals of judicial decisions are regularly made to higher courts. Some non-judicial decisions (such as local council planning decisions) might be argued around impartiality, but I would have thought decisions made by Judges of a court would rarely be so. Given the AFL Tribunal had two retired Judges, I think WADA's decision is more likely to be based on a view that it may believe the test for "comfortable satisfaction" was misapplied. (To be fair to all parties, it is a very amorphous term open to interpretation.)

[Dr. Gonzo 22,785]

And until this saga broke, none of us would probably have had any suspicions about his playing career

I know I do now but I'm also suspicious of the goings on at other clubs.

Oh definitely - how do players at other clubs go from boys to men in two seasons while the ones we draft stay skinny runts well into their twenties?

[nutbean 8,837]

If that ex footballer had have said that stuff to me I wouldn't have been surprised but I still would have questioned it all

I can see your point 'nb' but I just have a different viewpoint.

People are responsible for their own actions ... I do have a degee of sympathy for the young draftees at the time - not sure they can be judged differently though.

Whatever our differences of opinion are - this is a once off difference of opinion.

The landscape has been changed forever and there is now zero defence. If my club now asked me to fart I would keep my cheeks clenched until I was sure it was AFL approved.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,534]

Whatever our differences of opinion are - this is a once off difference of opinion.

The landscape has been changed forever and there is now zero defence. If my club now asked me to fart I would keep my cheeks clenched until I was sure it was AFL approved.

And ASADA approved.

[DemonFrog 1,347]

So it was ASADA who destroyed all the written spreadsheets was it James....

That makes so much sense

Liar.

Mysterious substances can do that to you SWYL.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/asada-chief-reveals-concern-that-essendon-records-may-have-been-destroyed-20150401-1mcthw.html

[Chris 2,892]

The obvious difference is that this program was put in place by the players employer with all the reassurances that it was above board. There would have been a lot of implied pressure to conform and it would take a very independent minded and strong personality to resist. The culprits here are the clubs hierarchy and not the players and it is they who should be pursued by WADA and Worksafe.

I wonder if there has been any precedent for this world wide - if not WADA may be wanting to send a strong message by pursuing this case.

It doesn't take a player who is a strong personality to resist, it takes one who takes his responsibilities as an athlete seriously to resist. These are the same responsibilities placed on pre teen gymnasts and to a large degree they seem to manage fine, why are adult footballers incapable of this!

[Ted Lasso 17,307]

if someone who has some knowledge of psychology has seen the AFL 360 segment, they can potentially confirm this as i have a very basic knowledge but i noticed a few mannerisms from James Hird that made me believe he was lying, the biggest one was when he said the players hadn't taken anything illegal

[Macca 16,174]

There's being duped and then there is allowing oneself to be duped

Ignorance is bliss?

Yeah, go ahead and inject me hundreds of times to the stomach region with unknown substances at some dodgy anti- aging clinic - I'm fine with that

Later on - we were duped.

I'm not buying it.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,785]

That's because he has woken up to his role as an independent journalist. This must have been hard given he is employed by the News Ltd dominated EFC/HIrd apologists and at times it did look as if he had joined them.

Someone on BF said it's because Whateley likes to back a winning horse and I think there's truth in that. As well as the factors you've mentioned.

[sendoff2014 18]

If James Hird thought ASADA had 'destroyed' evidence why did he not just produce his own/EFC copy?

Is he so used to lying that he can't even see the transparency of this lie?

Beggars belief!!

Also, why has he waited till now to make this amazing 'disclosure'.

PS: does anyone know if the 360 show is available anywhere on line if you don't have foxtel

People are also forgetting that he's claiming a spreadsheet was destroyed. An electronic spreadsheet that can be reproduced and redistributed as many times as they desire.

If the 'missing' evidence is complimentary to Essendon's case, surely they wouldn't have only one copy and given the one and only copies of it to ASADA?