... so to single out a lack of talent is just a cop out in my book.

He didn't single out lack of talent, he specifically singled out lack of effort and lack of 4 quarter effort. He made the perfectly valid point that if you aren't Hawthorn, Swans, Freeo, you can't afford to slack off, even for a moment.

I look at the free run the Giants had at the draft, the 17 year olds, the NSW players, the extended list, the salary cap allowance ... and shudder.

There was never a worse time to be looking to rebuild through the draft than what existed over the years we so desperately needed it. All of the cream was taken off the top, as was obvious in what we saw running around against us today.

Against that, the drafting we've done over the last couple of seasons has been potentially great, with hardly a foot wrong. But, as with the Giants, it will take 3 or 4 years.

Bulldogs and Port coped well enough. Bont, Macrae, Stringer, Libba... Wines, Wingard...

Our drafting has been fine since Roos got involved, but two draft periods isn't close to enough to fix a club. We'll be having this same discussion next year and probably the year after.

Garlett and Kent are no good at the set shot - they have missed too many easy goals the last 2 weeks.

Howe. 1 mark and 1 tackle. I think I could have done that.

Was there something wrong with Howe today? It was like he didn't wanna be there. Jones was hopeless too. We looked so slow in the midfield. Newton's the only one with a passmark through the midfield.

Poor old Tommy Mac. He was brilliant. Salem was decent too. Viney was good in the first half. Then we looked out on our feet at the start of the third.

When you're talking raw talent we have Salem, Viney, Tyson, Jones, McDonald, Hogan, Kennedy-Harris, Vince, the list goes on.

You've got to be kidding. Excepting Jones, they're potentially talented, but nothing more at this stage.

Hogan has played 2 games, Salem and JKH not that many more, Viney, Tyson and McDonald are still learning the ropes, and Vince is approaching his last season or two. You can't even begin to build a team around players like that, but to a large extent that's what we're being forced to do.

Dees' supporters have got to stop kidding themselves about where our current list is at. Seriously.

W hat was the deal with Jones today?

He had to be injured. I saw him with his hands on knees early in the last quarter and he looked spent. There was a report he did not train on Tuesday so something is up. I have not lost hope. I do think we were top heavy today but I'm not sure the solution. I don't blame Roos and we are silly if we do. The players need to take it upon themselves. The young players are carrying us and with that comes drop off. Leadership during game has not been there since J McDonald was asked to leave.

There is something wrong as we saw this utter capitulation during preseason.

He didn't single out lack of talent, he specifically singled out lack of effort and lack of 4 quarter effort. He made the perfectly valid point that if you aren't Hawthorn, Swans, Freeo, you can't afford to slack off, even for a moment.

Yes he rightly spoke about the effort dropping away. I'd rather he left it there, or say that we are not at a stage yet as a team to let that waver, rather than these continual references to a lack of talent. You can be a competitive team, even a good team, without stars on every line.

Blame the effort by all means, but give the talent thing a rest.

Interesting to watch the Saints all over the Suns again tonight.

Certainly raises more questions than answers for my liking. Are the Suns that bad? Are we any good? Are the Saints improving?

The Saints, at least, were within ten points of the Giants.

EDIT: Nah, the Suns are godawful. Wow, truly, truly awful. Uncontested marks all over the place, even right out front of the Saints goal.

You've got to be kidding. Excepting Jones, they're potentially talented, but nothing more at this stage.

Hogan has played 2 games, Salem and JKH not that many more, Viney, Tyson and McDonald are still learning the ropes, and Vince is approaching his last season or two. You can't even begin to build a team around players like that, but to a large extent that's what we're being forced to do.

Dees' supporters have got to stop kidding themselves about where our current list is at. Seriously.

We lack serious footspeed in the midfield. Sort that out and those guys start to look a whole lot better.

I think there is a bit of overrracting going on here. We are essentially 2 years into this rebuild and are capable of playing the way we did last week and in qtr 1 this week. I think we're definetly on the right track with all the young talent we have and the stable environment now surrounding thr club.

Its been too long to start losing patience now

no point lamenting the giants had the pick of several drafts, does not matter they put a team on the paddock that was committed and we didn't. Simple as that.

Absolutely gutted at the lack of commitment from these guys really after about midway through the second quarter. While we were leading you could see they were pinging away at the goals but were missing. Jones had a shocker, did not look like getting near the ball or even seem to be trying to be in the thick of it. Kent missed two important shots that he really should have gotten, did nothing much really. So many players were not prepared to run or chase. another long season if they don't pull their fingers out and put in.

You've got to be kidding. Excepting Jones, they're potentially talented, but nothing more at this stage.

Hogan has played 2 games, Salem and JKH not that many more, Viney, Tyson and McDonald are still learning the ropes, and Vince is approaching his last season or two. You can't even begin to build a team around players like that, but to a large extent that's what we're being forced to do.

Dees' supporters have got to stop kidding themselves about where our current list is at. Seriously.

Hogan is a third year player and has already shown he is more than capable at the level. Viney is a third year player. Tyson is a fourth year player. McDonald is starting to carve himself out as one of the premier key defenders, if these guys are "learning the ropes", then so are the Giants players, and they areal good enough to play in that side.

I'm not deluding myself on the where the team is at. But a lot of the building books in terms of "talent" are in place. There are still some gaps to fill, of course, but from here it is as much about cohesion as a team, belief and above all else, effort.

We started well and played some terrific footy to get 5 goals ahead. Then it all went pear shaped.

It's quite baffling to try and work out why too ... you'd think the team would want to go in for the kill but we did the opposite. We were too top heavy as it turned out and their midfield ended up having a field day. Our lack of purpose, effort & leadership was alarming.

The other concern was changing our centre clearance personnel. It was obvious that Jones & Tyson were having very little impact out of the middle but they were both persevered with. They just wanted it more and our heads dropped far too quickly.

At one stage we were up 13-4 in the clearances and the figure ended up being 50-36 in their favour.

Many here thought it was our strongest team but it always looked to me that we were 1 or 2 mids short (so much so that I thought we might have to rotate our talls through the interchange)

The positive is that we did play very well in the first quarter and a bit (we have previously seen the team not turn up at all)

Reality check today.

Geez the Bulldogs look the goods though.

Thank god they got rid of McCartney!

Sorry couldn't resist, forget I mentioned it.

no point lamenting the giants had the pick of several drafts, does not matter they put a team on the paddock that was committed and we didn't. Simple as that.

Absolutely gutted at the lack of commitment from these guys really after about midway through the second quarter. While we were leading you could see they were pinging away at the goals but were missing. Jones had a shocker, did not look like getting near the ball or even seem to be trying to be in the thick of it. Kent missed two important shots that he really should have gotten, did nothing much really. So many players were not prepared to run or chase. another long season if they don't pull their fingers out and put in.

Agree that there is overreacting going on in this thread. However, I'm still unconvinced by Kent. He continues to make simple errors, struggles to keep his feet in the contest, his kicking is very hit and miss, and his set shot kicking isn't up to standard. Where the hell is this apparent elite kicking? Elite kicking is consistent. His kicking never is.

I look at the free run the Giants had at the draft, the 17 year olds, the NSW players, the extended list, the salary cap allowance ... and shudder.

There was never a worse time to be looking to rebuild through the draft than what existed over the years we so desperately needed it. All of the cream was taken off the top, as was obvious in what we saw running around against us today.

Against that, the drafting we've done over the last couple of seasons has been potentially great, with hardly a foot wrong. But, as with the Giants, it will take 3 or 4 years.

You need to stop such sense, bing181.

Better to pot the coach and live in la-la land about the quality of our list.

We started well and played some terrific footy to get 5 goals ahead. Then it all went pear shaped.

It's quite baffling to try and work out why too ... you'd think the team would want to go in for the kill but we did the opposite. We were too top heavy as it turned out and their midfield ended up having a field day. Our lack of purpose, effort & leadership was alarming.

The other concern was changing our centre clearance personnel. It was obvious that Jones & Tyson were having very little impact out of the middle but they were both persevered with. They just wanted it more and our heads dropped far too quickly.

At one stage we were up 13-4 in the clearances and the figure ended up being 50-36 in their favour.

Many here thought it was our strongest team but it always looked to me that we were 1 or 2 mids short (so much so that I thought we might have to rotate our talls through the interchange)

The positive is that we did play very well in the first quarter and a bit (we have previously seen the team not turn up at all)

Reality check today.

It's not just the midfielder's run, it was to do with ruck dominance. Jamar was beating Mumford, as soon as it flipped, boom, 10 goals.

It's not just the midfielder's run, it was to do with ruck dominance. Jamar was beating Mumford, as soon as it flipped, boom, 10 goals.

And clearances....

Mumford kept on hitting the ball to the fat side with 3 GWS players waiting, NOT MANNED UP!

Our midfield was [censored] today.

It's all above the shoulders with this team. Too often, far too often. It's not fitness, it's weak heads and the sooner our leadership group start leading when things get tough the better.

9 goals just reinforces our inability to harden up when it's needed. No wonder every MFC member has no idea what to expect each time we turn up to a game. We are weak above the shoulders, and that still exists with a massive list turnover. It's got me stuffed!!!!

And clearances....

Mumford kept on hitting the ball to the fat side with 3 GWS players waiting, NOT MANNED UP!

Our midfield was [censored] today.

And Jamar was also palming the ball to space, often defensive goal side, which wasn't helping. Some of his ruck work today was baffling. As usual. Mumford doesn't play and GWS don't win. As simple as that. He turned the game when he lifted his work rate.

It's all above the shoulders with this team. Too often, far too often. It's not fitness, it's weak heads and the sooner our leadership group start leading when things get tough the better.

9 goals just reinforces our inability to harden up when it's needed. No wonder every MFC member has no idea what to expect each time we turn up to a game. We are weak above the shoulders, and that still exists with a massive list turnover. It's got me stuffed!!!!

Well, hang on. How many of the psychologically bruised players are left? There's a couple, but McDonald didn't seem to be effected by it. Blokes like Jones and Garland needed to stand up. Garland had his hands full, Jones couldn't get near it, Dawes failed to impact, the same with Cross. Are we saying Jones is mentally weak? Because he hasn't shown that in the past 24 months.

We lack serious footspeed in the midfield. Sort that out and those guys start to look a whole lot better.

Give us another ten years and we will get that fixed I reckon.

It's all above the shoulders with this team. Too often, far too often. It's not fitness, it's weak heads and the sooner our leadership group start leading when things get tough the better.

9 goals just reinforces our inability to harden up when it's needed. No wonder every MFC member has no idea what to expect each time we turn up to a game. We are weak above the shoulders, and that still exists with a massive list turnover. It's got me stuffed!!!!

Yep, with some skill issues.

Slow hands, slow to react....our leadership group lacks mongrel.

I'm patient and calm waiting for Salem, Hogan and Viney to get up to 50-60 games...these guys are competitive beasts. Innate desire and hunger.

Do you actually think Hogan would have done so well if Dawes wasn't there to stop him from being double teamed, taking another opponent etc.? I agree he did [censored] all around the ground, but there are other roles a forward play which help other forwards excel. Come on.

You're better than this MS.

Song, there were many times that Dawes was in fact a hinderence to Hogan. Today I actually would have preferred Dawes to run to where the ball was not and take his man with him. I hate to say it but Fitzy and Pedo would have performed as well or better today. We are definitely not getting value for money out of Dawes. I was dubious about him being brought back into the ones after his pathetic repeat offending 'week off' and started to believe the Dawes-hype, love fest that I read from many posters (no need to name names and shine the spotlight on them, as usual, they're like silent mushrooms now....) on the 'changes to round 2' and Thursday training thread. I felt reluctantly convinced that he might actually make a meaningful difference to the team. Well Song, no more. For what we must be paying Dawes, I think he is very average and hugely overrated. Of course I don't know his contract payment details, but he must be in our top 5 paid players. That RIDICULOUSLY CHILDISH punch past the boundary into the crowd in the 4th proved to me that the guy is massively over paid and underperforming. To some extent, it doesn't even matter if he backs it up with a reasonable game next week, he still plays one good game for every 7 or 8 average/poor/today's standard of game. Jeremy Cameron was well held by TMac, but I'd still rather have him in our team than Dawes by a country mile. Nice guy by all accounts, but pretty much a wasted spot on our list ATM taking a big chunk out of our cap.

Hate to point out the obvious but St Kildas 8 goal half time lead isn't exactly a glowing endorsement of our Rnd. 1 effort.

Looks like the game is becoming quicker and more offensive in 2015 too. :-/