And maybe part of the reason why we didn't go forward quickly last year was Dawes not being able to get separation and because we didn't have confidence he would hold his marks.

I think that's a bit rich. Are you suggesting that we had the worst inside 50 record in the AFL because we were too nervous to kick it in there as Dawes can't take a mark ?

I agree that Dawes is not a pack marking forward - but he is rarely beaten in air and any coach will say the same thing - if you can't mark the ball - bring it to ground.

To me we didn't improve markedly because Hogan/Watts/Vandenberg were taking marks - we improved because we had Gartlett at their feet. It was interesting that the commentators picked out HL screaming at JKH to play on when last season he wouldn't have. Dawes was rarely one out last season and blaming him for the players lacking adventure to get the ball into the forward quickly 50 ( let alone often) I just don't think is right.

in other words you will have a bet each way because you are petrified of saying something that a child like yourself will come out later and say nahnah i told you so.. so you post like a politician

Roosy summed it up best in his presser today:

"Roos: I'm a guy who picks the best team I can possibly have - whether a player's 33 or 18 (if they're good enough they'll play.)"

As I said before I still think Dawes will play, but Roos will pick the side that he believes gives us the best chance of winning. Dropping Grimes is testament to that.

I think that's a bit rich. Are you suggesting that we had the worst inside 50 record in the AFL because we were too nervous to kick it in there as Dawes can't take a mark ?

I agree that Dawes is not a pack marking forward - but he is rarely beaten in air and any coach will say the same thing - if you can't mark the ball - bring it to ground.

To me we didn't improve markedly because Hogan/Watts/Vandenberg were taking marks - we improved because we had Gartlett at their feet. It was interesting that the commentators picked out HL screaming at JKH to play on when last season he wouldn't have. Dawes was rarely one out last season and blaming him for the players lacking adventure to get the ball into the forward quickly 50 ( let alone often) I just don't think is right.

Of course our low inside 50 count was not all due to Dawes, but he was a part of the problem. Dawes was unable to get separation on his man, so this led the kicker to go sideways and backwards and the opposition then had time to flood back.

DIsagree. It's not exactly like for like as I pointed out, but Frost is a hell of a lot closer to Dawes than he is to Pencil, in every facet. Not sure how much time Frost actually ended up in the ruck but he won a total of 4 hitouts. I can't see Dawes being much worse, and he is the more experienced forward who will provide the more formidable foil for Hogan in the forwardline. I really think we are debating what will be a formality, that is Dawes returning to the side. Someone has to make way and dropping one of the small mid/fwds runs the risk of going in too tall.

'P-man', you are smarter than this. I'm not saying Frost is like Pencil but he is playing the ruck role that someone would need to take if you dropped him. Dawes cannot play ruck.

Gee definitely is a big call.

He absolutely lacked speed to get separation last season because we were taking forever to get the ball into the forward line and the opposition had an eternity to push numbers back. He did drop many marks but he is rarely beaten in the air and at last we have one class crumber that may benefit from spillages he creates. He has a great defensive mindset which will always make him a popular choice with Roos

I think Rjay was suggesting Dawes was now down the pecking order behind Hogan and Watts - I don't think Dawes is a number one forward and I do rather like the idea of the third tall defender having to mind Dawes.

That leaves one further benefit - Vandenberg is a midfielder who played the role forward on the weekend - he showed that he has a rather nice pair of hands on him - so it gives another marking option down forward.

I would be very surprised if Dawes did not walk straight back into the seniors this week.

Yep, I think the opposition will be mindful of Hogan as he will do more damage on the scoreboard than Dawes. He also shows a lot of footy smarts around the ground.

To my mind Dawesy will go back to the workhorse role he played at Collingwood in their premiership year. Whether he gets the 2nd or 3rd defender will depend a bit on who the opposition has to take Watts, it will be a match up thing.

If Dawes can start to hit the scoreboard then it will take a lot of pressure off Hogan.

I think it's a given that Dawes comes back in.

So either Bernie has another VFL run to get full fitness and it's simply Toumpas for Dawes

Or they both come in and JKH goes out.

JKH still has developing to do, bringing Dawes in you still get that defensive pressure with more physicality.

Brayshaw the sub, sub Vince off at 3qtr time when we're 9 goals up. Brayshaw comes on gets 15 touches, 5 tackles 2 goals and a rising star nom.

Dawes gets reported and JKH comes back in after starring at Casey.

I don't see the problem.

I think it's a given that Dawes comes back in.

So either Bernie has another VFL run to get full fitness and it's simply Toumpas for Dawes

Or they both come in and JKH goes out.

JKH still has developing to do, bringing Dawes in you still get that defensive pressure with more physicality.

Brayshaw the sub, sub Vince off at 3qtr time when we're 9 goals up. Brayshaw comes on gets 15 touches, 5 tackles 2 goals and a rising star nom.

Dawes gets reported and JKH comes back in after starring at Casey.

I don't see the problem.

I'd keep JKH ahead of Brayshaw (again he did nothing wrong).

I'd keep JKH ahead of Brayshaw (again he did nothing wrong).

I get rather excited by moments of "sublime" football. Salem hit up a running Bail against Port Adelaide last year with a magnificent footpass and that had me salivating - JKH turning inside and spotting up Tyson with "that" kick - Tyson - didn't have to break stride. It was pure class and unbelievable execution of skill.

It is skill like that that makes me pay my money to watch football.

Anyone know if there are known injuries at GWS for this weeks game? It would help to know if they are going to be bringing in another tall.

I get rather excited by moments of "sublime" football. Salem hit up a running Bail against Port Adelaide last year with a magnificent footpass and that had me salivating - JKH turning inside and spotting up Tyson with "that" kick - Tyson - didn't have to break stride. It was pure class and unbelievable execution of skill.

It is skill like that that makes me pay my money to watch football.

I feel like that kick hasn't got the love it deserves. It was Hawthorn-like.

I feel like that kick hasn't got the love it deserves. It was Hawthorn-like.

the kick to JKH from Garland was very good also

Garland was very good on Saturday - He, like a few others, looked great because he took the game on.

17 guys name themselves

Backs: McDonald, Garland, Dunn, Howe, Jetta, Salem

Fwds: Hogan, Dawes, Watts, Garlett

Mids: Jones, Tyson, Viney, Vince, Lumumba, Cross

R: Jamar

You've got the following fighting over 5 spots: Frost, Newton, VanderBERG, JKH, Bray, Gawn, Toumpas, Kent, Grimes, M.Jones

That's ten guys for five spots and fit is of vital importance (sorry, but toump played, so he gets incl in 10).

I Think it will be:

Frost: backup ruck + fwd

JKH: forward line is too big with Frost, so he has to be included

Vander: if his engine is enough to play through the middle (potential vest)

Newton: (potential vest)

Bray: 9 tackles, should be in (potential vest)

Kent and Toump make way for Vince and Dawes.

Forward line is top heavy and a bit static, but I imagine Roos has determined to never move Watts seeing as how that has affected him in the past.

I would love to see Vanders keep his spot in the 21 - he will have a lot of family (up from Tathra) and friends at the game...

I would love to see Vanders keep his spot in the 21 - he will have a lot of family (up from Tathra) and friends at the game...

Keep his spot? He should be one of the first selected.

Are there any example of a big second ruck type playing back when not in the ruck?

I'd prefer not to have Hogan, Dawes, Watts/Vandenberg AND Frost in the forward line at the expense of a crummer (Garlett, Kent, JKH)...

So can we slot Frost down back, where he trained all pre-season, with cameos in the ruck?

Keep his spot? He should be one of the first selected.

I just meant 'not be the sub'...

And, 'first selected'? He would be down the list quite a bit...

'P-man', you are smarter than this. I'm not saying Frost is like Pencil but he is playing the ruck role that someone would need to take if you dropped him. Dawes cannot play ruck.

I know that, and what I'm saying to you is that if you think Dawes and Frost are miles apart in their ability to ruck, then we differ in our opinion. Dawes isn't a great second ruck, granted, but neither is Frost on current evidence.

Frost doesn't deserve to go, but someone has to, and on reflection dropping either of JKH or Kent is robbing the side of much needed speed and skill on the outside which made a difference on Saturday.

I know that, and what I'm saying to you is that if you think Dawes and Frost are miles apart in their ability to ruck, then we differ in our opinion. Dawes isn't a great second ruck, granted, but neither is Frost on current evidence.

Frost doesn't deserve to go, but someone has to, and on reflection dropping either of JKH or Kent is robbing the side of much needed speed and skill on the outside which made a difference on Saturday.

The problem is, as TDI/Saty will attest, they have done some ruck work at training with Frost - they haven't done it with Dawes.

Jamar/Frost looks to be the preferred pairing until Gawn knocks down the door...

I know it is only 20 mins a game but it is tough to throw someone a role they haven't been prepared for, and for the mids to be given a ruck they haven't worked with.

The problem is, as TDI/Saty will attest, they have done some ruck work at training with Frost - they haven't done it with Dawes.

Jamar/Frost looks to be the preferred pairing until Gawn knocks down the door...

I know it is only 20 mins a game but it is tough to throw someone a role they haven't been prepared for, and for the mids to be given a ruck they haven't worked with.

Fair call.

Well, I'm stuffed if I know what they're gonna do to squeeze him in. Dawes will want to play well cause whoever he replaces will be stiff.

Fair call.

Well, I'm stuffed if I know what they're gonna do to squeeze him in. Dawes will want to play well cause whoever he replaces will be stiff.

Agreed, but this is a good thing - that's not to say Dawes wouldn't go out there and give 100% each time, but the extra pressure can only work in the clubs favour. If he is selected he will know the person going out of the side will be very stiff and he will need to justify his selection.

Garland was great in the 1st half, but once the Suns went small in the 2nd half, Garland was manned up on either Ablett or Jack Martin and got touched up.

I'm fairly certain it was against Howe that Jack Martin started to find space on the lead and take some marks. Unless he does have a niggle, there is no way Roos backs Garland into round one, Garland responds with his best game since 2013 and Roos then drops him. It would be a very basic and very stupid coaching error and would mean Roos has no plan or reason behind picking him initially, which wouldn't be the case.

Both Vince and Dawes should come in for Toumpas and one of Kent/JKH with a small possibility of Brayshaw. None of them deserve to be dropped but it has to be one of those 3. Vandenberg was very important and should keep his spot while Frost will be very important supporting Jamar against Mumford. I think we leave out JKH for this week slot Vince straight in and start Kent sub. When Brayshaw fatigues (say mid 3rd- 3QT) we bring Kent on for some speed and allow more midfield time for Vince/HL.

Obviously they may go another way but I would love to see the above happen. Doesn't compromise the pressuring and toughness of our round 1 team and allows us to potentially break the game open with speed and skill later on.

I don't think he would still be on our list if he was taken at pick 50. He was given a contract extension almost straight away.

If was taken at pick 50 many here would be wanting him to get more game time (based on his promise) ... again, it's the 4 pick that gets into many people's heads so as a consequence, they often can't have an unbiased opinion.

I'd rather listen to the opinion of this bloke all the same ... by the way, did anyone see Roos' appraisal of our under 18 competition on AFL 360 last night? He basically called for a lift in the draft age and for a re-structure of the next tier (also talked about the huge gap between under 18 footy and AFL)

'Jimmy's really knuckled down': Roos backs Toumpas

MELBOURNE coach Paul Roos has urged Demons fans to be patient with Jimmy Toumpas and is expecting to see the "rewards" of the midfielder's strong pre-season in 2015.

Just because we haven't been rewarded for our patience in the past doesn't mean we should abandon the concept.

The alternative is an 'instant gratification' type of thinking which is just plain stupid.

Are there any example of a big second ruck type playing back when not in the ruck?

I'd prefer not to have Hogan, Dawes, Watts/Vandenberg AND Frost in the forward line at the expense of a crummer (Garlett, Kent, JKH)...

So can we slot Frost down back, where he trained all pre-season, with cameos in the ruck?

Port did it most of last year with Trengove playing key back and relief ruck.

If was taken at pick 50 many here would be wanting him to get more game time (based on his promise) ... again, it's the 4 pick that gets into many people's heads so as a consequence, they often can't have an unbiased opinion.

I'd rather listen to the opinion of this bloke all the same ... by the way, did anyone see Roos' appraisal of our under 18 competition on AFL 360 last night? He basically called for a lift in the draft age and for a re-structure of the next tier (also talked about the huge gap between under 18 footy and AFL)

'Jimmy's really knuckled down': Roos backs Toumpas

Just because we haven't been rewarded for our patience in the past doesn't mean we should abandon the concept.

The alternative is an 'instant gratification' type of thinking which is just plain stupid.

I am really glad he says it but same old same old to me.