essendon is but one club. 17 other clubs whose members tally in the 100's of thousands might not/probably dont see it as a natural reflex that this bunch of crooks ought to be spared.

BB, how confident are you that Essendon is the only club at risk? I suspect all clubs have looked at the rules and nudged against them at some stage (not specifically drugs/supplements. But maybe salary cap manipulation, draft tampering, tanking (cough) etc).

I think the glass houses and stones adage should be considered here.

I will take your bet but first we have to agree on what "more pain for the EFC" is?

I mean that the AFL will not impose more penalties on the EFC as such.

Player penalties do not count. neither do penalties by work safe.

Agree?

So from what you are saying I can assume that you think there will be more pain and possibly from multiple sources but not the AFL.

My contention is there will be more pain and from multiple sources including the AFL. So we are on. Don't leave town.

NB. If the AFL recommends changes at the top or funding may be withheld, I call that pain. eg. Sack Hird or no $$$$ from the AFL

Does anyone know the inordinate representation figures on The AFL Board by ESSsssss...

BB, how confident are you that Essendon is the only club at risk? I suspect all clubs have looked at the rules and nudged against them at some stage (not specifically drugs/supplements. But maybe salary cap manipulation, draft tampering, tanking (cough) etc).

I think the glass houses and stones adage should be considered here.

Thats altogether quite possible. It has however already been reported that there are no ongoing investigations into other clubs and Ess is THE one well and truly in Wadas sights.

All this speculation about the AFL throwing Essendon out of the comp is off the mark.

More likely that Essendon are arrogant enough to start a new league in competition to the AFL. (At least I think I'm joking....)

I blink and look away for a day or two and BB has it at 315!

Impressive, I think......

It was 1224 on the old Board on this topic before it was locked. We all had at least as many if not more in most cases.

Do you see anything wrong with the picture of you criticising others for spending time posting on a topic they are interested in and you getting on the Board you claim not to be interested in but spending your time keeping count on how many posts they are making. Who do you think should be staying away from this Board them or you.

...In my view there will have to be a 1) complete rebuild at Essendon, including in a new corporate entity, so that the old one can continue the fight against the writs with the players, 2) Worksafe, and with Hird's lawyers still negotiating with them to continue coaching a club with no players! (a pub with no beer anyone!).

Some sweeping statements and I can't see how you back them up. Consider:

1) The entity that has most to lose is the AFL. Players will sue them (as well as EFC) for 'negligence' of their 'duty of care'. Whoever is sued by players it ill be settled quickly and quietly, out of court. EFC as we know it will survive. The players' suits are outside ASADA/WADA jurisdiction or their appeal processes.

2) With Worksafe it may well find something like: "EFC had poor governance, which has been rectified. While there is 'comfortable satisfaction' on TB4 being used there is insufficient evidence to prove it". There is every chance they will say: "Hird and the Club have already been penalised by the AFL so Worksafe won't take it any further". Such a result is totally outside ASADA/WADA jurisdiction or their appeal processes.

...I believe the least penalties ASADA/WADA will accept are 1) two year bans dated from the day the penalties are announced, and if it covers more than two players (more than likely), then 2) Essendon may also find themselves banned for a time. Then let the writs fly.

1) As I understand it, if the players are found guilty by the AFL Tribunal the decsion is followed by a 'penalties hearing' where penalties are 'negotiated'. After the Cronulla thing ASADA won't dare negotiate an outcome without WADA's ok. So a reduced likelihood of WADA appeal.

2) WADA rules on support staff and team suspension were pretty weak before Jan 1 2015 so they may not apply to the 2012 EFC

Hard to think that WADA are going to go for maximum penalties to players and to Hird and to EFC. So can't see your 'doomsday' scenarios for all these parties eventuating. Maybe one of but not all three.

Edited March 11, 201510 yr by Lucifer's Hero

Thats altogether quite possible. It has however already been reported that there are no ongoing investigations into other clubs and Ess is THE one well and truly in Wadas sights.

And there was no investigation (at least, not publicly stated as such) into tanking at any clubs other than Melbourne.

The fact that no ongoing investigations have been reported doesn't mean (a) that there aren't any or (b) that there won't be any in the future.

Having said that, I hope there is no need for any investigations into ours or any other club. But I'm not so naive to suggest that every club hasn't bent the rules at some time.

So from what you are saying I can assume that you think there will be more pain and possibly from multiple sources but not the AFL.

My contention is there will be more pain and from multiple sources including the AFL. So we are on. Don't leave town.

NB. If the AFL recommends changes at the top or funding may be withheld, I call that pain. eg. Sack Hird or no $$$$ from the AFL

Agree

now if it takes 5 years to end do I write the bet into my will?

And there was no investigation (at least, not publicly stated as such) into tanking at any clubs other than Melbourne.

The fact that no ongoing investigations have been reported doesn't mean (a) that there aren't any or (b) that there won't be any in the future.

Having said that, I hope there is no need for any investigations into ours or any other club. But I'm not so naive to suggest that every club hasn't bent the rules at some time.

not sure what your point is ldvc

we all know that for every drug cheat caught at least 10 others don't get caught

same goes for other forms of cheating on the rules

but that is a poor argument to go soft on the ones you do catch

anyway, we will soon find out how committed the afl is to it's own rules (albeit forced on them) and penalties and what sort of message it sends

i'm not too optimistic

Edited March 11, 201510 yr by daisycutter

not sure what your point is ldvc

we all know that for every drug cheat caught at least 10 others don't get caught

same goes for other forms of cheating on the rules

but that is a poor argument to go soft on the ones you do catch

anyway, we will soon find out how committed the afl is to it's own rules (albeit forced on them) and penalties and what sort of message it sends

i'm not too optimistic

I'm not asking the AFL or any sporting organisation to go soft on any drug cheats. But I'm concerned that the AFL structure could be damaged irrevocably, not just by what might happen to Essendon, but what might follow. I'd love to be certain that our club isn't going to be mixed up in this at some stage. But there's no way I can be certain that we won't.

I'm not asking the AFL or any sporting organisation to go soft on any drug cheats. But I'm concerned that the AFL structure could be damaged irrevocably, not just by what might happen to Essendon, but what might follow. I'd love to be certain that our club isn't going to be mixed up in this at some stage. But there's no way I can be certain that we won't.

Its a valid concern. its one indeed the AFL need to keep very much in mind lest they fall foul themselves.

A great many people are viewing this as some sort of AFL only , inside the box affair. It's much more than that.

This is how I see it .........

Agree

now if it takes 5 years to end do I write the bet into my will?

I suggest a trust account with a board of managers to distribute funds, or you could pay up today.

I suggest a trust account with a board of managers to distribute funds, or you could pay up today.

I really look that silly?

Don't answer that.

I'm not asking the AFL or any sporting organisation to go soft on any drug cheats. But I'm concerned that the AFL structure could be damaged irrevocably, not just by what might happen to Essendon, but what might follow. I'd love to be certain that our club isn't going to be mixed up in this at some stage. But there's no way I can be certain that we won't.

Fear of getting wet if we clean up is a poor reason for letting the filth go on growing. Which it would.

BB, how confident are you that Essendon is the only club at risk? I suspect all clubs have looked at the rules and nudged against them at some stage (not specifically drugs/supplements. But maybe salary cap manipulation, draft tampering, tanking (cough) etc).

I think the glass houses and stones adage should be considered here.

Let's be clear about this. ASADA offered Essendon (with the cooperation of the AFL) a way out of this in 2013. It meant they took some of the blame. The result - Hird rolled his "best friend" Evans (about the only honest broker in all of this), and recruited Little to go on a binge of self justification and sociopathic self indulgence (if that is not an oxymoron!). It could have been all over in 2013, if Hird had have confessed guilt, as Essendon and Evans wanted him to, which i know for a fact was their PR and legal advice which pointed them in that direction. Instead, they went on a binge of self justification and self indulgence which has lead to this current mess. This situation is entirely in Hird's court.

All other clubs would have recognized the dangers and acted upon them.

I hesitate to raise this, but history is littered with charismatic leaders with too much power and no checks and balances (Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pott, Mao, Campbell Newman). All eventually fall on their sword though hubris and arrogance. Hird is the sporting equivalent.

There is no other AFL club with anyone approaching a leader of such power and wealth, and blind adherence from fans and the club, as Jame Hird.

Such power is a fatal combination in any organisation. Unfortunately there has been no equivalent power to keep him in check and so he has led a once great club to the point of oblivion through his self obsession, and arrogance.

They deserve everything they get.

Edited March 11, 201510 yr by Dees2014

I hesitate to raise this, but history is littered with charismatic leaders with too much power and no checks and balances (Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pott, Mao, Campbell Newman). All eventually fall on their sword though hubris and arrogance. Hird is the sporting equivalent.

You're not afraid of hyperbole are you.

Let's be clear about this. ASADA offered Essendon a way out of this in 2013. It meant they took some of the blame. The result - Hird rolled his best friend Evans (about the only honest broker in all of this), and recruited Little to go on a binge of self justification and sociopathic self indulgence |(if that is not an oxymoron!). It could have been all over in 2013, if Hird had have confessed guilt, as Essendon and Evans wanted them to, which i knwow for a fact that their PR advice and legal advice pointed them in that direction. Instead, they went on a binge of self justification and self indulgence which has lead to this current mess. This situation is entirely in Hird's court.

All other clubs would have recognized the danger and acted upon them.

I hesitate to raise this, but history is littered with charismatic leaders with too much power and no checks and balances (Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pott, Mao, Campbell Newman). All eventually fall on their sword though hubris and arrogance. Hird is the sporting equivalent.

There is no other AFL club with anyone approaching a leader of such power and wealth, and blind adherence from fans and the club, as Jame Hird.

Such power is a fatal combination in any organisation. Unfortunately there has been no equivalent power to keep him in check and so he has led a once great club to the point of oblivion through his own self obsession, and arrogance.

They deserve everything they get.

lol - campbell newman. must be something in the water up in qld producing charismatic messiahs - newman, rudd, bjelke joe

(that's apolitical, one from each party)

I'm not asking the AFL or any sporting organisation to go soft on any drug cheats. But I'm concerned that the AFL structure could be damaged irrevocably, not just by what might happen to Essendon, but what might follow. I'd love to be certain that our club isn't going to be mixed up in this at some stage. But there's no way I can be certain that we won't.

If we are, then we take our punishment. It is as simple as that. what we don't do is cover it up and think we can pull the wool over the eyes of our supporters, staff and the general public as a Hird led Essendon seem to think is acceptable.

I am very confident we do not have an sociopathic charismatic leaders like Hird who will lie and cheat for their own ends.

That is the main reason Essendon are in trouble, and they deserve to be.

lol - campbell newman. must be something in the water up in qld producing charismatic messiahs - newman, rudd, bjelke joe

(that's apolitical, one from each party)

I agree, Rudd should have been in that list

You're not afraid of hyperbole are you.

Hahha Stalin, Pol Pot... Campbell Newman?!

Hahha Stalin, Pol Pot... Campbell Newman?!

For crimes against the public service

Let's be clear about this. ASADA offered Essendon (with the cooperation of the AFL) a way out of this in 2013. It meant they took some of the blame. The result - Hird rolled his "best friend" Evans (about the only honest broker in all of this), and recruited Little to go on a binge of self justification and sociopathic self indulgence (if that is not an oxymoron!). It could have been all over in 2013, if Hird had have confessed guilt, as Essendon and Evans wanted him to, which i know for a fact was their PR and legal advice which pointed them in that direction. Instead, they went on a binge of self justification and self indulgence which has lead to this current mess. This situation is entirely in Hird's court.

All other clubs would have recognized the dangers and acted upon them.

I hesitate to raise this, but history is littered with charismatic leaders with too much power and no checks and balances (Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pott, Mao, Campbell Newman). All eventually fall on their sword though hubris and arrogance. Hird is the sporting equivalent.

There is no other AFL club with anyone approaching a leader of such power and wealth, and blind adherence from fans and the club, as Jame Hird.

Such power is a fatal combination in any organisation. Unfortunately there has been no equivalent power to keep him in check and so he has led a once great club to the point of oblivion through his self obsession, and arrogance.

They deserve everything they get.

Hold on. Let's correct something. Campbell Newman didn't fall on his sword. The voters dumped him.

Bombers must be in major damage control ( aka PANIC )

Bombers willing to end bad blood with Smith and Wilson

ahhh...just keeps getting better....grovel grovel...

Bombers want to patch things up......dont want to admit guilt....just want to rake it over.

Bombers must be in major damage control ( aka PANIC )

Bombers willing to end bad blood with Smith and Wilson

ahhh...just keeps getting better....grovel grovel...

Bombers want to patch things up......dont want to admit guilt....just want to rake it over.

I hope Caro and Pat Smith record those conversations.

Would be hilarious if they crossed the line of "hey stop writing [censored] about us and we'll give you xxxx"

Wouldn't put it past the bombers.