On 14/12/2014 at 07:51, jnrmac said:

Well it is and thats what the AFL and its clubs have signed up for. So get used to it.

No it's not.

As much as you may want it to be, it's not. ASADA still has to prove the case.

  On 14/12/2014 at 10:12, bing181 said:

The evidence from Charter and Alavi can still be included, they just can't be questioned on it. But as Charters said himself, ASADA have all the evidence from him they need in the form of hard evidence (copies of mails, receipts etc. etc.).

Difficult to see how it changes anything.

There's even the argument presented here (and elsewhere), that in not joining in the Subpoena process, the players have actually weakened their case because of the negative inference that can be drawn.

ASADA was the one asking the court to allow the two of them to appear at the hearing. I think it's fair to say it follows that they wanted them there, and by not having them there, their case must be weakened to some degree. If ASADA can't get its witnesses to show up at court for the purposes of cross-examination, the tribunal may decide to take their evidence with a grain of salt (you would have to to an extent, given you haven't had the chance to see how their stories stand up when questioned).

As for the negative inference, that's not how that rule of law works. They are ASADA witnesses, not the players', so the inference would operate if ASADA decided not to call them (it would mean that the players could say they're not being called because they have nothing useful to add). I don't think anyone thinks those two would be useful for the players' case.

From the WADA code...

Article 3.1 sets out that it is the anti‐doping organisation which carries the burden of proof to establish that an anti‐doping rule violation has occurred, with the standard of proof being comfortable satisfaction which is then defined as being ‘greater than a mere balance of probability but less than proof beyond a reasonable doubt.’5 Article 3.2 then states that violations ‘may be established by any reliable means’

One relevant evidentiary principle is presumptions. Article 3 of the WADA Code outlines the rebuttable presumption that tests carried out by WADA accredited laboratories are accurate. The reason for such a presumption is to make the evidentiary task easier by effectively redefining the burdens of proof, with the burden of proof then being on the athlete to show that the laboratory results were not accurate. Note that the standard of proof for the athlete trying to rebut this presumption is usually the lower balance of probabilities standard.

THE anti-doping watchdog’s star witness has sensationally turned on the agency by holding secret talks with lawyers for the Essendon players.

In a stunning twist, Shane Charter has met Tony Hargreaves to discuss potential weaknesses in the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority’s case against the Bombers.

ASADA v ESSENDON: EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW

CHARTER CAN’T BE FORCED TO TESTIFY

SECRET EMAIL SHOWS ASADA’S JOB LURE

Charter made no apologies, saying: “I am neither ASADA’s witness nor Essendon’s.”

The long-awaited AFL tribunal hearing into allegations 34 current and former Bombers took a banned drug starts today. It will proceed without Charter and another key witness, Nima Alavi, after ASADA lawyers failed to convince the Supreme Court the pair could be subpoenaed.

The pair has given evidence to ASADA but refuses to testify. But in an interview with the Herald Sun, Charter said he did not consider himself an ASADA witness and saw no reason why he should not help the players.

“I’m not ASADA’s witness, I was merely providing information,” he said.

“Tony Hargreaves has had the opportunity to discuss some issues that were unclear and also to clarify the chronology of the peptides ordered.

“There were a number of flaws in ASADA’s case and it was going to be hard for him to fill in the gaps if I wasn’t turning up.”

Charter agreed to speak with the lawyers after he was approached.

Asada did not offer Charters enough it seems

  On 14/12/2014 at 10:58, titan_uranus said:

If ASADA can't get its witnesses to show up at court for the purposes of cross-examination, the tribunal may decide to take their evidence with a grain of salt (you would have to to an extent, given you haven't had the chance to see how their stories stand up when questioned).

Do we know for a fact that cross examination is performed at a tribunal hearing?

Don't tribunal members hear evidence from both sides and perform their own questioning?

I guess each tribunal works differently but..........

Haven't these chaps ever heard of phone taps...

  On 14/12/2014 at 10:58, titan_uranus said:

ASADA was the one asking the court to allow the two of them to appear at the hearing. I think it's fair to say it follows that they wanted them there, and by not having them there, their case must be weakened to some degree.

That's an assumption on your part. From everything I've read, it's irrelevant whether they're there or not. Charters said as much himself. I also feel that the Subpoena was just ASADA covering themselves, dotting i's and crossing t's.

When it comes to sports law, ASADA have access to the best in the business. I know there's this image put around of them being some kind of Keystone Cops, but you only have to look at who's presenting their case at the tribunal to realise that that's far from the reality.

In any case, the main game is Dank, and it will be hard for the players to get around his McKenzie interview/confession. Then there's the players' testimonies that they took "Tymosin", the injection schedules that match the schedule for TB-4, Alavi's forged signature, etc. etc. Rather be in ASADA's shoes than the players.

So the secret Drug trials start today.

that about covers it.

  On 14/12/2014 at 20:52, old dee said:

So the secret Drug trials start today.

that about covers it.

No, no Old Dee. You need to get in step with George Brandis's meta-language. It's the secret trial of the secret drug trial.

So Charters is now officially as delusional as Dank. Not a complete surprise.

Talk about trying to save one's arze !!

Whole thing becomes more comical by the day , that is to say the supposed reality that EFC , Danks and now Charter ( and I suppose Alavi) is to be found at:

2-4 Dreaming Ave, Toonsville , Nuttyland.

Why isn't Dank being charged with administering drugs not available for human consumption?Does he actually have a licence for anything?

What does the TGA do?

What about the compounding pharmacist? Does he compound drugs for anyone that asks? Can anyone take him vials of stuff bought from China and have him compound into a form that can be administered?

The whole scenario is shonky and everyone in it as far as I am concerned should be cited. Charter, Alavi, Dank, Reid, Hird....

Its bloody amazing that this thing hasn't been stomped on by the federal govt.

jnr...I seriously suspect there's a much MUCH bigger game surrounding all of this and that the ASADA campaign is a player ( wittingly or otherwise ) in a larger game of chess being played by authorities with much more power and might than tribunals.

I suspect its about waiting for the mice to properly enter traps !! just my hunch , nothing else

  On 14/12/2014 at 23:04, jnrmac said:

Why isn't Dank being charged with administering drugs not available for human consumption?Does he actually have a licence for anything?

What does the TGA do?

What about the compounding pharmacist? Does he compound drugs for anyone that asks? Can anyone take him vials of stuff bought from China and have him compound into a form that can be administered?

The whole scenario is shonky and everyone in it as far as I am concerned should be cited. Charter, Alavi, Dank, Reid, Hird....

Its bloody amazing that this thing hasn't been stomped on by the federal govt.

Good question. In fact, several good questions.

  On 14/12/2014 at 22:37, beelzebub said:

So Charters is now officially as delusional as Dank. Not a complete surprise.

Talk about trying to save one's arze !!

Whole thing becomes more comical by the day , that is to say the supposed reality that EFC , Danks and now Charter ( and I suppose Alavi) is to be found at:

2-4 Dreaming Ave, Toonsville , Nuttyland.

Re: Nuttyland . .

I've just discovered something . .

Nostradamus seems to have precognized one or more characters in the current EFC situation!

"The Fool On The (windy) Hill"

Day after day, alone on the hill

The man with the foolish grin is keeping perfectly still

But nobody wants to know him

They can see that he's just a fool

And he never gives an answer

But the fool on the hill

Sees the sun going down

And the eyes in his head

See the world spinning around

lm still working on this one:

Century1, Quatrain 56

You will see, sooner and later, great changes made,

Extreme horrors and vengeances:

For as the moon is thus led by its angel,

The heavens draw near to the reckoning.

Asada and the previous sports Minister F*&*ed this up completely. No wonder it will go nowhere and the players will not be sanctioned by this "Tribunal"

AFL are desperatley seeking a way out. The rest is all air and wind for consumption out in Noddyland and the Lawyers as usual are making a motsa of money

Charters would have no clue beyond what he has told them

So it is almost the lunch break time in the AFL inquiry.

Anyone heard any news.

Oh sorry that's right it is being held in secret!

  On 15/12/2014 at 01:51, old dee said:

So it is almost the lunch break time in the AFL inquiry.

Anyone heard any news.

Oh sorry that's right it is being held in secret!

that should stop the hun or the rage finding something outrageous and sensationalist to report, od

  On 15/12/2014 at 00:34, deefrag said:

Re: Nuttyland . .

I've just discovered something . .

Nostradamus seems to have precognized one or more characters in the current EFC situation!

"The Fool On The (windy) Hill"

Day after day, alone on the hill

The man with the foolish grin is keeping perfectly still

But nobody wants to know him

They can see that he's just a fool

And he never gives an answer

But the fool on the hill

Sees the sun going down

And the eyes in his head

See the world spinning around

lm still working on this one:

Century1, Quatrain 56

You will see, sooner and later, great changes made,

Extreme horrors and vengeances:

For as the moon is thus led by its angel,

The heavens draw near to the reckoning.

I think that is from some other visionaries LennosMcCartridamus

And they predicted James Turd was the fool on from Windy Hill, well done.

btw are we keeping cricket scores for this trial?

  On 15/12/2014 at 01:58, daisycutter said:

that should stop the hun or the rage finding something outrageous and sensationalist to report, od

Since when has lack of information ever stopped the Media from creating an story dc?

  On 15/12/2014 at 02:09, old dee said:

Since when has lack of information ever stopped the Media from creating an story dc?

my point exactly, od

boy, you are sharp today

  On 15/12/2014 at 02:14, daisycutter said:

my point exactly, od

boy, you are sharp today

Some days are Diamond, some days are Stone!

What I am waiting patiently for is.

After all the wigs have gone through their verbal diahrea of opening speeches.

They then call up the 34 players and are asked player 1. You have been charged with injecting TB-4

How do you plead. ....... Guilty your honour.!!!! LOL

  On 14/12/2014 at 23:07, beelzebub said:

jnr...I seriously suspect there's a much MUCH bigger game surrounding all of this and that the ASADA campaign is a player ( wittingly or otherwise ) in a larger game of chess being played by authorities with much more power and might than tribunals.

I suspect its about waiting for the mice to properly enter traps !! just my hunch , nothing else

Bloody hope you're right, Mr B - I've got an unpleasant feeling about all of this. Secret tribunals, hidden medical records, packs of lawyers, an AFL desperate to keep the moolah rolling in. Did I hear, in my semi-sleepy state this morning, some politician calling for Asada to be investigated?

If the Druggies are innocent, and can prove it, i don't mind em getting off. But if they've buried the evidence and hired legal hacks to look for technicalities to keep it hidden, I'll be spewing (apologies - my usual eloquence has deserted me).

Will never be able to watch Jobe and his rotten Charlie. The greatest honour our game can give, and they gave it to a feller who was on the gear.

any news? anything happening?

has the jury been empanelled yet?