Just to what P-man was saying on Viney. Your points are well made and you're right that age shouldn't disqualify him totally. But there's still much he's learning about the his game and has suspect disposal at times. It's inevitable that he'll get there eventually, for me there's no need to rush it, especially give Roos' stance that the young brigade shouldn't be seen as messiahs.

Your last line re Roos often stated stance is what leads me to think it won't happen.

I had to read that twice to make sure I got it right, that's hilarious, I spoke to him, he feels that his form has been inconsistent (not alone) and he needs to put himself first to enable him to fulfil his potential, sounds like Roos had some input

Sounds like what 'Machsy' was saying, not so hilarious.

I reckon he can play and early in his career he showed it. I also think he can kick off from that early career form (after stagnating for a couple of years) and be a very good player at the MFC.

Sounds like what 'Machsy' was saying, not so hilarious.

I reckon he can play and early in his career he showed it. I also think he can kick off from that early career form (after stagnating for a couple of years) and be a very good player at the MFC.

Grimes is at his best when he's in that straight-ahead, no-nonsense mode. He's also more suited to corridor footy rather than the boundary hugging stuff ... I'd put McDonald in the same sort of category. Garland is another.

Roos has had a year to look at these type of players and I'm hopeful he'll find the right role for them.

Grimes is at his best when he's in that straight-ahead, no-nonsense mode. He's also more suited to corridor footy rather than the boundary hugging stuff ... I'd put McDonald in the same sort of category. Garland is another.

Roos has had a year to look at these type of players and I'm hopeful he'll find the right role for them.

Grimes is great as a defender. I really don't rate him at all in the midfield so I hope that can leave him out of there.

The best thing about the 2015 leadership group is that there is a myriad of youngsters waiting in a couple of years' time to take over the baton.

Something that hasn't happened for a very, very long time.

Roos' influence on this club has been enormous - bigger than I ever imagined.

For mine:

Captain: Jones

VC: Dunn
Leadership group: Cross, Dawes, Viney.
Not sure on Bernie. I love the way he lives his life but he is a bit of a wild one.
I would take Viney for the reasons mentioned earlier. He would be surrounded by some pretty senior heads and a pretty solid football department and administration and it's not like he is captain. P-Man's point is valid. People forget how much of a bloody morass we were in in 2011. As far as I can tell, there is no infighting at board level, Beamer is running his boxing camp for himself these days and players are only relieving themselves in urinals, not all over bars (purportedly). It wouldn't be Jack's sole responsibility to tackle that kind of mess. This is demonstrated by the fact that when Terlich and Georgiou came out dressed like Rolf Harris and one of his victims. The club jumped all over that and condemned it from minute dot.

I'd be against Dunn being in the leadership group as I don't believe leaders go around taking cheap shots at team mates during training.

I agree with you on that, adding there is a difference playing tough footy,and being a wannbe tough guy. Dunne would not set a good example on field. He still needs to keep improving onfield, had a good year this year,but not enough for me to be swayed.

I'd be going Jones for Capt. Dawes for VC.

Dawes needs to lift his input on game day. I think he might in 2015, unless he cops an injury pre-season, he should be able to give us more game day, plus helping out Hogan. His experience isn't to be unrated, he speaks well. For those 2 reasons I would give him the VC. Not ideal,but our options right now are a bit limited.

LG = Jones, Dawes, Cross, Grimes, Vince, Viney.

I'd be wary of throwing the younger guys in for next year, let them play footy, when they show onfield leadeship consistently, bring one or two in

ie When Cross retires. Vince may benefit from some added responsibity. He'll have to look the other LG guys in the eye,if he puts a foot out of line.

Grimes is great as a defender. I really don't rate him at all in the midfield so I hope that can leave him out of there.

I agree - Jack needs to improve his field kicking and decision making but so do many others. As mentioned previously, he tends to make some mistakes when he has too much time to think about it ... or, if he tries to pinpoint a pass sideways, on an angle or alongside the boundary)

He's a no-nonsense type being asked to play a style that doesn't ordinarily suit him. Lumumba is a straight ahead player as well but, his coaches have allowed him to play that style ... Lumumba is an "80 metre" player and Grimes can play in a similar way.

As for the leadership group ... I'd prefer to view things differently ... every player on the list has an opportunity to display leadership and lead by example - Even the new draftees ... they don't necessarily need to be led by the hand.

Has anyone thought Howe could be an option??

He really is a consistent player and is now 24

Forgot about Howe. He strikes me as the kind of guy who'd be better off just concentrating on his own game. Basing this on nothing though.

I had to read that twice to make sure I got it right, that's hilarious, I spoke to him, he feels that his form has been inconsistent (not alone) and he needs to put himself first to enable him to fulfil his potential, sounds like Roos had some input

Why hilarious? It's exactly what he's doing.

Concentrating on his game to cement a place in the 22, rather than slipping out of it and letting his career slip away from him.

I don't think that's at all sensationalist.

We all know that no one can make a comment about a player that could potentially be construed as criticism without you getting your knickers in a twist.

Don't let your self-indulgent username go to your head.

I agree - Jack needs to improve his field kicking and decision making but so do many others. As mentioned previously, he tends to make some mistakes when he has too much time to think about it ... or, if he tries to pinpoint a pass sideways, on an angle or alongside the boundary)

He's a no-nonsense type being asked to play a style that doesn't ordinarily suit him. Lumumba is a straight ahead player as well but, his coaches have allowed him to play that style ... Lumumba is an "80 metre" player and Grimes can play in a similar way.

As for the leadership group ... I'd prefer to view things differently ... every player on the list has an opportunity to display leadership and lead by example - Even the new draftees ... they don't necessarily need to be led by the hand.

So how many years do we give Jack to improve his kicking?.......two,three?

My back six would consist of McDonald, Frost, Dunn, The Prince and Jetta. There is enough experience there to cover a youngster on the other back flank. I would like to someone like Salem tried in this position. If your two key defenders have average/poor disposal you can cop that, but not from your back flanks. At least offer some run and carry. Being articulate and a great bloke doesn't make you a good footballer. I look forward to the day where people's best 22's don't include Grimes or Jordie Bloody McKenzie.

As I understand it, the coach appoints captain and vice, but the bulk of the leadership group is elected by the players. I expect great things from Lumumba, but he won't get the votes and Grimes will.

So how many years do we give Jack to improve his kicking?.......two,three?

My back six would consist of McDonald, Frost, Dunn, The Prince and Jetta. There is enough experience there to cover a youngster on the other back flank. I would like to someone like Salem tried in this position. If your two key defenders have average/poor disposal you can cop that, but not from your back flanks. At least offer some run and carry. Being articulate and a great bloke doesn't make you a good footballer. I look forward to the day where people's best 22's don't include Grimes or Jordie Bloody McKenzie.

I'd like to see Grimes used in a way that best suits Grimes ... the short hit up, sideways, backwards, boundary hugging style just doesn't suit him. If that's how he used in the future then he may not last.

I'm almost certain that Lumumba will be told to play his "natural game" and he's new to the club ... a good coach won't ask a player to play a style that has very little chance of working for that player - it's not 'one size fits all' despite what some people might think.

I believe a players strengths should be brought out by the coach whilst not neglecting to work on that players weaknesses. Some players are more accurate with their kicking over longer distances - usually it's the other way around but not always.

The problem for Grimes is that from what we've seen so far, Roos likes to share the ball around in the backline ... and then switch the play or hold on to the ball etc etc etc ... Jack just isn't ideally suited to that style.

Its probably just me but ti find the whole thing about a leadership group as something of a joke. Its a wankk.

In anything, any adventure , any collaborative effort there will always be those that lead. They do this because its in their dna to do so and also in the dna of others to follow. This concocted version is something a HR idiot would come up with and those to scared to question will follow.. oh yeah...its marvellous ...etc Its rubbish

The only leadership required is for those that can to do and for everyone else to either emulate or perish.

We're in danger of trying to over engineer this game ( or most things for that matter )

I'd like to see Grimes used in a way that best suits Grimes ... the short hit up, sideways, backwards, boundary hugging style just doesn't suit him. If that's how he used in the future then he may not last.

I'm almost certain that Lumumba will be told to play his "natural game" and he's new to the club ... a good coach won't ask a player to play a style that has very little chance of working for that player - it's not 'one size fits all' despite what some people might think.

I believe a players strengths should be brought out by the coach whilst not neglecting to work on that players weaknesses. Some players are more accurate with their kicking over longer distances - usually it's the other way around but not always.

The problem for Grimes is that from what we've seen so far, Roos likes to share the ball around in the backline ... and then switch the play or hold on to the ball etc etc etc ... Jack just isn't ideally suited to that style.

The interesting thing is are we going to change the way we play. What does the Goodwin gameplan look like. This year was all about defence, as we know we havnt had the players to play like Port. I think we will see the gameplan slowly evolve over the next year or two. I think Roos is smart enough to realise what worked before will not necessarily work again, Freo being a good example. Teams need to be able to lock a game down and control it when needed, and also take it on when needed. Regardless if you can't dispose of the ball short, long or sideways your days are numbered. As we have recruited well over the past two summers I believe this may be the case for Grimes.

The interesting thing is are we going to change the way we play. What does the Goodwin gameplan look like. This year was all about defence, as we know we havnt had the players to play like Port. I think we will see the gameplan slowly evolve over the next year or two. I think Roos is smart enough to realise what worked before will not necessarily work again, Freo being a good example. Teams need to be able to lock a game down and control it when needed, and also take it on when needed. Regardless if you can't dispose of the ball short, long or sideways your days are numbered. As we have recruited well over the past two summers I believe this may be the case for Grimes.

You may be right - if a player can't kick to position then he's making it easy for the selectors to make an easy decision. And as you indicated AD, Roos will be smart enough to adapt to what he's got as his disposal (both in what talent a player has to offer and that players playing style)

'Do what you do - do well' is most apt when it comes to sport ... I'm a great believer in it. Roos' ultimate style is tempo footy - the Swans under him knew how & when to lock it down and they knew when to attack with speed and efficiency.

With more talent at his disposal (hopefully) we should see a greater emphasis on attack - the forward line looks a lot better (on paper) so at least the midfield and our defence can look down the ground with a lot more confidence

We really need a fit Hogan and our 3rd tall forward to step it up (Watts? Pedersen? maybe Gawn?) Dawes is really better suited as the 3rd forward but he'll have to play a needed role as the no.2. Probably as the lead up forward and/or as a decoy.

What's this thread about again?

Captain: Jones

Vice-Captain: Dawes

Leadership Group: Grimes, Dunn, Garland, Viney

Roos endorsed Dunn last year when he added him to the leadership group. I see no reason for him to now be excluded. I don't understand the reasoning behind Cross being added to the group. His official listing as a leader won't change what he already does. Like Vince, if he was going to be an official leader, he would have gone straight in last year. I'm not a huge Dawes fan but in the short term I think he's the best option as Vice Captain. Jones is clearly the stand alone captain and like Trengove last year, I expect that despite walking away from the captaincy he'll be retained within the broader leadership group. During the Neeld/Craig era, I was impressed with the public face often provided by Garland. He struggled last year after missing the pre-season. He'll be fit this year, will re-gain form and should remain as an official leader. I'm not scared off by the Grimes/Trengove experience. Viney is a leader. A good, vibrant leadership group requires diversity. Sure he's young but he'll be a great leader for the young emerging players at the club. Stability throughout the club is important. This should be reflected in the leadership group. Chopping and changing greatly from one year to the next is counter-productive. Clark and Frawley have left. Dunn came in last year. Add Viney. Get on with it.

Its probably just me but ti find the whole thing about a leadership group as something of a joke. Its a wankk.

In anything, any adventure , any collaborative effort there will always be those that lead. They do this because its in their dna to do so and also in the dna of others to follow. This concocted version is something a HR idiot would come up with and those to scared to question will follow.. oh yeah...its marvellous ...etc Its rubbish

The only leadership required is for those that can to do and for everyone else to either emulate or perish.

We're in danger of trying to over engineer this game ( or most things for that matter )

Further to this. You don't have to be in the leadership group to be a good leader. Lumumba arrives at the club and already it was reported that he took hogan aside and talked to him about positioning(?). Now he may get into the LG but I would hope this sort of behaviour would continue irrespective.

No love for Jamar in LG? Not sold on it but worth discussion.

Honestly...wtf cares...just go out and play footy..Is it that hard ?? im starting to wonder

You may be right - if a player can't kick to position then he's making it easy for the selectors to make an easy decision. And as you indicated AD, Roos will be smart enough to adapt to what he's got as his disposal (both in what talent a player has to offer and that players playing style)

'Do what you do - do well' is most apt when it comes to sport ... I'm a great believer in it. Roos' ultimate style is tempo footy - the Swans under him knew how & when to lock it down and they knew when to attack with speed and efficiency.

With more talent at his disposal (hopefully) we should see a greater emphasis on attack - the forward line looks a lot better (on paper) so at least the midfield and our defence can look down the ground with a lot more confidence

We really need a fit Hogan and our 3rd tall forward to step it up (Watts? Pedersen? maybe Gawn?) Dawes is really better suited as the 3rd forward but he'll have to play a needed role as the no.2. Probably as the lead up forward and/or as a decoy.

What's this thread about again?

If you are a leader/supervisor of any description in any kind of workplace you need to be able to do just that. You can give all the speeches you want but if you can't deliver yourself you will soon loose face with the group. We are all guilty of overrating our list, its time to cut the deadwood and move on. This means no passengers. And if what some people think is true, that is he will be voted into the leadership group because he is popular/ a great clubman well that decision needs to be taken out of the hands of the players for the short term. I might be in the minority but for mine he's no best 22. As some have already alluded to was he pushed. The notion his decision to step aside was an example of his character.....should of done it twelve months ago.

If you are a leader/supervisor of any description in any kind of workplace you need to be able to do just that. You can give all the speeches you want but if you can't deliver yourself you will soon loose face with the group. We are all guilty of overrating our list, its time to cut the deadwood and move on. This means no passengers. And if what some people think is true, that is he will be voted into the leadership group because he is popular/ a great clubman well that decision needs to be taken out of the hands of the players for the short term. I might be in the minority but for mine he's no best 22. As some have already alluded to was he pushed. The notion his decision to step aside was an example of his character.....should of done it twelve months ago.

I think the players would understand this message very clearly.

If you are a leader/supervisor of any description in any kind of workplace you need to be able to do just that. You can give all the speeches you want but if you can't deliver yourself you will soon loose face with the group. We are all guilty of overrating our list, its time to cut the deadwood and move on. This means no passengers. And if what some people think is true, that is he will be voted into the leadership group because he is popular/ a great clubman well that decision needs to be taken out of the hands of the players for the short term. I might be in the minority but for mine he's no best 22. As some have already alluded to was he pushed. The notion his decision to step aside was an example of his character.....should of done it twelve months ago.

I'm not much of a fan of leadership groups so whether Grimes is in the leadership group or not is neither here nor there for me. What does matter is if he, along with a number of others that have been on the list for some time, can start to play some really good footy - week in, week out.

Whilst any player is on our list I wish them well. They are all capable - however, a coach can only do so much. The rest is up to the player. I don't like ruling a line through any player as I believe that even the best player can improve. Dunn is a great example of that - he's finally starting to produce after being virtually written off by many fans ... Jetta is another.

Our biggest issue remains our kicking to position ... you can't have too many players in the team who can't consistently hit a target - the best teams often don't even carry one player who is deficient in that area.

No title for viney yet would rather see tmac