Post Match Discussion - Round 16

[binman 41,945]

A little nugget from Roos last week where he feels that the players that come from TAC are skilful offensively but lack the AFL requirement of defence. All the good teams leave their players in the seconds for long periods of time to develop this side of their game. Maybe , just maybe the Tapscott, Bleases and now JKH are there to learn and not as some on here would say with their cards marked.

I have been thinking exactly the same thing actually, particularly in regard to Blease.

[george_on_the_outer 7,428]

A little nugget from Roos last week where he feels that the players that come from TAC are skilful offensively but lack the AFL requirement of defence. All the good teams leave their players in the seconds for long periods of time to develop this side of their game. Maybe , just maybe the Tapscott, Bleases and now JKH are there to learn and not as some on here would say with their cards marked.

Other player such as Watts have the general skill but not the endurance as shown by his inability to run out games in Darwin.

These players don't gain as much by being in the seconds and are better played in the firsts with more breaks.

"Success is best measured by how far you have come with the talents you have been given." RDB

Sadly Deesrule, the TAC doesn't allow players to be tagged, so the scouts can see the skills of the players. But the downside is that the kids finish up playing at AFL level where it happens. And a good number don't cope, or it takes a couple of years to teach them how to overcome a tag or how to play defensively.

Silly idea IMO as at junior levels players are taught to stick to the good players on the opposition, or to swing from attacking mode to defensive mode.....

Spot on 'bub, and we all know that we won't delist/trade THAT many players. It's a process that will take 2-3 years to do, but the point is that our list is still light on for talent and, while we have a gameplan and FD that is FAR better than what we've had previously, we still need to re-shape the list to get it up to pace with the rest of the competition.

And delisting too many achieves only a gamble situation.

By the time you get to your pick 5 or 6 in the draft you are looking at pick 80+. No-one will trade for that and the recruiting team finishes up with the scenario of do you keep ( for example) Tapscott or Nicholson on the list or do you use that pick in the 80's on a kid who has been overlooked by 17 other sides at least 5 times?

[beelzebub 23,198]

Not all are delisted and require a very late pick. There will be trades.

[jnrmac 19,890]

The problem isn't that everyone is unintelligent, it's just that there is a culture of stupidity on the site that is a direct reflection of those that post the most on it.

Generally the best posters on Demonland post less frequently (with a few notable exceptions).

Speaking about a culture of stupidity.... it's about your avatar ......

[Wiseblood 24,637]

And delisting too many achieves only a gamble situation.

By the time you get to your pick 5 or 6 in the draft you are looking at pick 80+. No-one will trade for that and the recruiting team finishes up with the scenario of do you keep ( for example) Tapscott or Nicholson on the list or do you use that pick in the 80's on a kid who has been overlooked by 17 other sides at least 5 times?

No argument from me there, although I'd like to think we could nab a player or two in the Daniel Cross mould to help fill a few roles with experience for a year or two with either those later picks or through FA. But we can't take too big of a gamble, we simply can't afford the risk.

[Adam The God 29,336]

As per normal DD, you haven't bothered reading what I posted, just a couple of the other comments against my posts so you thought you would join in

I am as disappoined as anybody with the performance on Saturday night, obviously there is still a long way to go before we start to be competitive week in, week out, but we are where I thought we would be.

But I am going to back up next week in the hope that we put in a better showing against Geelong, I am not demanding the immediate delisting of 30 odd players

This is a footy forum agreed, so therefore I am entitled to express an opinion, like everybody else, I sometimes wonder though why some do continue to support the Club as it brings them so much misery, surely their time would be better spent elsewhere

I understand that the emotions expressed will be dependent on the the result, but some of the bandwagon jumping, hypocrisy, contradictory statements I find rather amusing, so I will post that, said before if you don't like it, don't read it

I also get a bit bored with the past being continually brought up, as it has in the topics emanating from the weekend's performance, let's move on shall we, it's not all Barry Prendergast's fault...or is it?

I have trust in Roos to right the ship, but it ain't gonna happen as soon as some on here would like

The delisting 30 odd players was hyperbole that you pulled out, Saty and it still sounds just as ridiculous. No one is calling for 30 delistings. I think many of us expect there to be wholesale changes though. I couldn't imagine it being anymore than say 12. It is also dependent on contracts though as well.

I didn't read many (if any) posters saying they wouldn't back up for next week. I'll be there every week, but that doesn't mean I'll cop continuous errors over and over again, without any sign of progress. As DD notes, none of us should have to, otherwise we may as well get out there and do it ourselves. I don't think it's too much to ask to expect better disposal efficiency. It's clear that quite a few in this group are incapable, so they will eventually be moved on or not relied on to kick or disposal the ball of regularly.

The off season is going to be fascinating. I'm looking forward to seeing how Roos reshapes this list.

We have all played footy, but I assume none have ever reached AFL level, so we have no idea what is required to play at that level

That old chestnut? So we've never played at elite level, therefore we're incapable of determining whether some players are good enough or not? That's akin to those that say if you haven't played at elite level, you're not qualified to coach or commentate the game. It's rubbish. This, once again, is the point of a discussion forum.

That's why I don't pot them as well.......you see it at games as well, the guy resting a beer on his ample girth shouting abuse.....think it is more to do with self inadequacy that anything else

It's not about calling our players, duds, spuds or whatever. I'm not saying I agree with that, but highlighting that a player isn't good enough, is not potting them. You've had a go at me before for this reason. But, IMO, it's all about the language used and whether the comments are actually thoughtful and/or supported by facts.

[Sir Why You Little 36,622]

So Satyr you honestly believe that the core of our list (around 50%) are good enough to lift this club into the 8 & beyond?

[Adam The God 29,336]

Agree with most of what you say AF however I think we constantly delude ourselves on the quaslity of the list.

We have said similair things to your comment that we could easily improve to a higher position next year with the addition of a couple of players .

We have been saying that for four years, the net result is we are still a bottom four side at best.

A couple of new players in 2015 will not improve us much IMO.

We are a good dozen players short of having a list capable of threatening eighth position.

There were eight players in the 22 on Saturday that IMO are never going to take us higher they simply are not good enough.

Roos has improved the player performances but a large number are showing us their maximium.

New better players is the only way to show significant improvement.

I see what you're saying, OD, but I maintain my stance that due to Roos' ability to get the best out of players, if we can cut down on some of those weekly unforced errors that cost us copious goals, we will win at least 4 or 5 more games. We do that and we'll be sitting around 9th, 10th or 11th.

I concur with the notion that we too regularly overrate our list, but if we can get a team of 22 role players, who limit their errors, we will be a vastly improved team. Some clever list changes and another pre season, and I think it's not too much of a stretch to say we could win between 8 and 10 games next year. You've got guys like JKH, Salem and Toumpas who should improve incrementally under Roos and co, along with guys like Viney and Tyson too.

I'm not going to say we'll make the eight next year, but it should be our target.

[beelzebub 23,198]

Speaking of Ol' Chestnuts , there's the one about those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

I see an analogy in list management ( granted not all will )

Those who dont understand their list and refresh it are doomed to retain it.. In order to better one's position you often need to clear away that which isnt productive or conducive to advancement and bring in freshness i.e new blood which might.

if you know what you have isnt working is a supposed gamble unwarranted or do you stay put out of fear of failure to better your position.

[Sir Why You Little 36,622]

I see what you're saying, OD, but I maintain my stance that due to Roos' ability to get the best out of players, if we can cut down on some of those weekly unforced errors that cost us copious goals, we will win at least 4 or 5 more games. We do that and we'll be sitting around 9th, 10th or 11th.

I concur with the notion that we too regularly overrate our list, but if we can get a team of 22 role players, who limit their errors, we will be a vastly improved team. Some clever list changes and another pre season, and I think it's not too much of a stretch to say we could win between 8 and 10 games next year. You've got guys like JKH, Salem and Toumpas who should improve incrementally under Roos and co, along with guys like Viney and Tyson too.

I'm not going to say we'll make the eight next year, but it should be our target.

But i don't think a lot of our list can improve the amount of skill errors they make regularly. It happens in almost every game.

They are simply not good enough.

The players i speak of can look great at training but you up the pressure to Game Time & it all falls apart.

[beelzebub 23,198]

Speaking of Ol' Chestnuts , there's the one about those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

I see an analogy in list management ( granted not all will )

Those who dont understand their list and refresh it are doomed to retain it.. In order to better one's position you often need to clear away that which isnt productive or conducive to advancement and bring in freshness i.e new blood which might.

if you know what you have isnt working is a supposed gamble unwarranted or do you stay put out of fear of failure to better your position.

[Adam The God 29,336]

But i don't think a lot of our list can improve the amount of skill errors they make regularly. It happens in almost every game.

They are simply not good enough.

The players i speak of can look great at training but you up the pressure to Game Time & it all falls apart.

For me, the majority of the skill errors that cost us on the scoreboard, come from our backline. If we were to swap out Grimes and Terlich from that back six and replace them with sound decision makers, I think we'll see a drop in opposition goals scored from turn overs. This will eventually win us matches.

I'd pretty much say only Dunn and whoever we recruit (this is key to the whole plan), are the only defenders allowed to use the ball creatively by foot, coming out of defence.

Frawley, McDonald and Garland are too important to leave out of the back six. Dunn has been a revelation and his kicking is now essential to our play off half back. So that leaves two spots. I'd give one to Jetta and I'd rotate two others (as of yet not on our list) to line break and kick efficiently off half back.

Edited July 7, 2014 by AdamFarr

[dimmy 1,282]

In all the discussion we have been very negative. So we lost, but the side we were playing were R-up last year and are in the mix this year.

Tommy Mace stood up again and improved with his disposal. Efort & PAce not a problem . He is also not afraid to carry the ball-...

Frawley is not asfraid to run with the ball and preaents himself well.

They should get videos of Cyril and Bruest ,Eddie B and BAllantyne (I hate saying this) and show the smaller forwards where to position themselves when the ball comes into the big blokes. JKH, Kenty or whoever should be within 10 yards of Dawes,Pederson and be in good position to take the crumbs.

Too often Jack V STOPS rather than taking the game on when he has a mark. Nathan is a little bit similar. Dom T takes the game on and will learn (he is only new!!). Bernie is our quality man .

Nobody could fault the forwards on Sat night because the quality of ball coming in was not as good as it can be.

There is hope !!!

[Wiseblood 24,637]

There is hope !!!

I don't think there are too many posters on here that don't agree in this regard - Roos and co. have given us hope in many ways so far this year and we can, for the first time in a while, see some light at the end of the tunnel, even if it still is a little bit dim.

What is still painfully obvious though is a lack of talent and class on our list. We do have it in some areas but it's clear that it can only be stretched so far. We have some young kids that have this but they still need time to develop it, and we also have some senior players that are very handy as well. What we are then left with are players who lack some skill, finesse, maturity etc that don't seem to be improving, and they won't take us to the next level. That should be clear to everyone.

There is light and it's flickering, but there is still plenty of work to do in regards to our list.

[spirit of norm smith 15,117]

I am getting sick of Matt Burgan's sugar coating. It was a poor effort. No Pavlich and no Hill. Two of their very best. Both were rested!!

We failed to execute basic skills. I actually think Freo relaxed and margin could have been 80 plus.

[spirit of norm smith 15,117]

In all the discussion we have been very negative. So we lost, but the side we were playing were R-up last year and are in the mix this year.

Tommy Mace stood up again and improved with his disposal. Efort & PAce not a problem . He is also not afraid to carry the ball-...

Frawley is not asfraid to run with the ball and preaents himself well.

They should get videos of Cyril and Bruest ,Eddie B and BAllantyne (I hate saying this) and show the smaller forwards where to position themselves when the ball comes into the big blokes. JKH, Kenty or whoever should be within 10 yards of Dawes,Pederson and be in good position to take the crumbs.

Too often Jack V STOPS rather than taking the game on when he has a mark. Nathan is a little bit similar. Dom T takes the game on and will learn (he is only new!!). Bernie is our quality man .

Nobody could fault the forwards on Sat night because the quality of ball coming in was not as good as it can be.

There is hope !!!

small forwards ... we have had no fwd crumber since the Wiz left us.

[Sir Why You Little 36,622]

For me, the majority of the skill errors that cost us on the scoreboard, come from our backline. If we were to swap out Grimes and Terlich from that back six and replace them with sound decision makers, I think we'll see a drop in opposition goals scored from turn overs. This will eventually win us matches.

Pretty sad when one of the main culprits is a captain!

Take him out of the equation and the side improves.....

I do not disagree.

[Demon_spurs 1,810]

The difference on Saturday night was highlighted in a rare piece of commentary vision, which showed Freo with one extra backman, every time Dees pushed a player forward, they made sure they had one extra, back there. That left one less around the fall of the ball, they didn't care if we won the clearance, fair chance it was coming back anyhow. That's really good coaching and a team that know their role. I think we crowd the fall of the ball, often get in each others way and teams have worked us out, (a plan is only a good plan till someone figures it out) this is why we have been less effective in the past couple of weeks, we need to adjust the plan, have less at the fall of the ball and more in positions forward and back.... Might just work.

[Little Richard 6,213]

small forwards ... we have had no fwd crumber since the Wiz left us.

We had a reasonable one in Wonaemirri when he was actually on the field and fit, which wasn't nearly enough.

In regards to the whole 'rubbish list' thing, it's plain that the list is pretty much trash and only marginally better than last season. We have at least 15 players who currently aren't up to it. A club which is going to be successful can't afford to carry that much dead weight.

I can't believe delusional people (mainly Satyriconhome) continue to champion the fact that we'll be good with very few changes - it won't happen, many of these players have been on the list for a number of years and just haven't developed. There comes a point where you have to say, enough is enough and cut them to start over. That time is this year for a number of players and although I may have a soft spot for a couple I won't be sad to see them go, as it will only advance the fortunes of the club.

[Sir Why You Little 36,622]

In regards to the whole 'rubbish list' thing, it's plain that the list is pretty much trash and only marginally better than last season. We have at least 15 players who currently aren't up to it. A club which is going to be successful can't afford to carry that much dead weight.

I can't believe delusional people (mainly Satyriconhome) continue to champion the fact that we'll be good with very few changes - it won't happen, many of these players have been on the list for a number of years and just haven't developed. There comes a point where you have to say, enough is enough and cut them to start over. That time is this year for a number of players and although I may have a soft spot for a couple I won't be sad to see them go, as it will only advance the fortunes of the club.

spot on man.

[Nasher 33,607]

Sadly Deesrule, the TAC doesn't allow players to be tagged, so the scouts can see the skills of the players. But the downside is that the kids finish up playing at AFL level where it happens. And a good number don't cope, or it takes a couple of years to teach them how to overcome a tag or how to play defensively.

Silly idea IMO as at junior levels players are taught to stick to the good players on the opposition, or to swing from attacking mode to defensive mode....

"No tagging" is actually a rule in the TAC?

[daisycutter 29,317]

"No tagging" is actually a rule in the TAC?

and no flooding

[Bitter but optimistic 22,064]

And no sheilas

[Nasher 33,607]

and no flooding

I'm not sure if you're taking the piss so I'll assume you're not, but those seem like difficult rules to enforce. What's the penalty?

[daisycutter 29,317]

I'm not sure if you're taking the [censored] so I'll assume you're not, but those seem like difficult rules to enforce. What's the penalty?

i think they are rules that the coaches have agreed too

don't think the umps get involved