Comparing McKenzie to Magner, Couch and Valenti is like comparing the crack in your granny's dining room wall to the Grand Canyon.

McKenzie has won Brownlow votes for BOG on two occasions, he's played fantastic lock down roles that have been crucial to us winning games and he is a leader within the club. Why do you think he won the Coaches award for 3 years in a row?

I acknowledge that with the introduction of Vince, Tyson, Cross, Michie, Riley and Salem his place in the team is far from certain and I acknowledge that under Neeld where his focus was purely on defence his game has surely suffered.

Roos has sent him to Casey to rediscover his attacking attributes and he is regularly getting high numbers to the stage that two weeks ago he was tagged. The comments on his disposal being poor are overstated and fit in the Tom McDonald "lets wait until he makes a mistake so we can sledge him" catagory.

McKenzie may not now be a regular AFL footballer but don't depreciate his past performances because in the past when the rest of the team has thrown in the towel and gone home he's still there putting in.

At least recognize his contribution rather than a totally insulting and inappropriate comparison.

As a poster has already pointed out, Magner and Valenti both also received brownlow votes during their short stints at AFL level.

I think I'd receive support in my comparison of McKenzie to those I mentioned in the sense that they're all one trick ponies. They don't offer enough as footballers and they share the same one attribute. Which is winning the hard ball. So the comparison is a lot closer than your ridiculous analogy suggests.

He was sent back to Casey to try and develop and DISCOVER some attacking attributes. Rediscover? When have we ever seen Jordie burst out of a pack ball in hand to deliver down the throat of a forward? Or kick a running goal? We haven't ever. Some may argue that his role has never been to play the game in that way. But there's a reason why! He doesn't possess those attributes!! So yes, he's been sent back to Casey to try and develop a more rounded game.

I can't argue or debate with posters like you or Saty. You develop such strong feelings for the individual that it blankets your view of his abilities as a player and his value to the team.

I get that McKenzie is a love child of yours. I'm more interested in our club becoming a powerhouse again. It's a ruthless business AFL. I wish McKenzie all the best in his efforts to become a more rounded midfield. But the reality is that we're going to be continually injecting more and more quality over the next couple of years and he will be squeezed out.

Wakey wakey.

Frawley and Terlich will definitely be rested due to injury and concussion.

Georgiou will also come back in after being rested, so Dunn will probably replace Frawley in the forward line, Georgiou will replace Dunn in the back line, and someone will come in for Terlich.

Pretty sure Riley will be the new sub whenever he gets into the side.

As a poster has already pointed out, Magner and Valenti both also received brownlow votes during their short stints at AFL level.

I think I'd receive support in my comparison of McKenzie to those I mentioned in the sense that they're all one trick ponies. They don't offer enough as footballers and they share the same one attribute. Which is winning the hard ball. So the comparison is a lot closer than your ridiculous analogy suggests.

He's being sent back to Casey to try and develop and DISCOVER some attacking attributes. Rediscover? When have we ever seen Jordie burst out of a pack ball in hand to deliver down the throat of a forward? Or kick a running goal? We haven't ever. Some may argue that his role has never been to play the game in that way. But there's a reason why! He doesn't possess those attributes!! So yes, he's been sent back to Casey to try and develop a more rounded game.

I can't argue or debate with posters like you or Saty. You develop such strong feelings for the individual that it blankets your view of his abilities as a player and his value to the team.

I get that you McKenzie is a love child of yours. I'm more interested in our club becoming a powerhouse again. It's a ruthless business AFL. I wish McKenzie all the best in his efforts to become a more rounded midfield. But the reality is that we're going to be continually injecting more and more quality over the next couple of years and he will be squeezed out.

Wakey wakey.

You don't like to debate chap, you prefer to make a sweeping statement and then everyone agree with you, if you don't, as above, you sulk....so how do you suggest we keep recruiting quality, according to you previously our recruiting has been abysmal, or have you turned on that opinion/statement now.

I don't develop strong feelings, I support the players who play for my team, I wanted to know and actually chatted to Jordie who gave me a full explanation of why he wasn't getting a game in the AFL side which he totally understood, he has gone back to Casey and is beginning to rack up the possessions, and become more rounded, who knows it still might not be good enough to crack a game, but if Roos picks him that will do me

As a poster has already pointed out, Magner and Valenti both also received brownlow votes during their short stints at AFL level.

I think I'd receive support in my comparison of McKenzie to those I mentioned in the sense that they're all one trick ponies. They don't offer enough as footballers and they share the same one attribute. Which is winning the hard ball. So the comparison is a lot closer than your ridiculous analogy suggests.

He was sent back to Casey to try and develop and DISCOVER some attacking attributes. Rediscover? When have we ever seen Jordie burst out of a pack ball in hand to deliver down the throat of a forward? Or kick a running goal? We haven't ever. Some may argue that his role has never been to play the game in that way. But there's a reason why! He doesn't possess those attributes!! So yes, he's been sent back to Casey to try and develop a more rounded game.

I can't argue or debate with posters like you or Saty. You develop such strong feelings for the individual that it blankets your view of his abilities as a player and his value to the team.

I get that McKenzie is a love child of yours. I'm more interested in our club becoming a powerhouse again. It's a ruthless business AFL. I wish McKenzie all the best in his efforts to become a more rounded midfield. But the reality is that we're going to be continually injecting more and more quality over the next couple of years and he will be squeezed out.

Wakey wakey.

Magner and Valenti were one paced solid VFL players, if they were good enough to make it at AFL level they'd still be on the list

Mckenzie can shut down top line AFL mids, as well as collect good numbers of the ball, the only thing missing from a genuine top line tagger is the ability to impact the game offensively and put further pressure on the opposition and their opponent.

Before reading the first few comments I was thinking to put Byrnes as sub and give Salem a full match.

As others have mentioned maybe Byrnes should be dropped, and instead give Riley or another one of our Casey players a run in the green vest.

I look forward to seeing the Casey report and am keen to see Michie regain some form.

Before reading the first few comments I was thinking to put Byrnes as sub and give Salem a full match.

As others have mentioned maybe Byrnes should be dropped, and instead give Riley or another one of our Casey players a run in the green vest.

I look forward to seeing the Casey report and am keen to see Michie regain some form.

I feel as though Michie could play Byrnes role and has significantly more upside.

It is a hard one with a bye next week. I would like to see Toumpas come in as the sub. For me Byrnes out for Toumpas.

You don't like to debate chap, you prefer to make a sweeping statement and then everyone agree with you, if you don't, as above, you sulk....so how do you suggest we keep recruiting quality, according to you previously our recruiting has been abysmal, or have you turned on that opinion/statement now.

I'll bite.

I thought you would be one of the first to know that we have a completely new FD including recruiters and head recruiter. A new coach who is known to be one of the best player developers as well as George Stone. Another coach regarded as an elite player developer.

There's a big difference Saty. We are no longer under BP and co with Moloney and Sylvia as our midfield leaders.

I'll bite.

I thought you would be one of the first to know that we have a completely new FD including recruiters and head recruiter. A new coach who is known to be one of the best player developers as well as George Stone. Another coach regarded as an elite player developer.

There's a big difference Saty. We are no longer under BP and co with Moloney and Sylvia as our midfield leaders.

So I'll bite - if you now think we have an elite coach and an elite player developer - something obviously missing before then why are you so quick to write anyone off ?

I agree that many seem to have gone past Jordie and if he cant become more rounded then we may well see him moved on. All he can do is work on what he is told to do -which maybe completely different to what his previous coaches have told him.

You are 100% correct we do have a new team in place and one preseason and 6 games is not enough for me to be writing anyone off. ( Note - Pederson, Bail, Jetta etc ) - and that goes for Jordie as well.

The team is crying out for the attributes that Blease possess (outside speed and finishing) but it doesn't sound like he warrants selection. I believe there is a spot with his name on it when and if he improves in whatever areas Roos is demanding of him.

As a poster has already pointed out, Magner and Valenti both also received brownlow votes during their short stints at AFL level.

I think I'd receive support in my comparison of McKenzie to those I mentioned in the sense that they're all one trick ponies. They don't offer enough as footballers and they share the same one attribute. Which is winning the hard ball. So the comparison is a lot closer than your ridiculous analogy suggests.

He was sent back to Casey to try and develop and DISCOVER some attacking attributes. Rediscover? When have we ever seen Jordie burst out of a pack ball in hand to deliver down the throat of a forward? Or kick a running goal? We haven't ever. Some may argue that his role has never been to play the game in that way. But there's a reason why! He doesn't possess those attributes!! So yes, he's been sent back to Casey to try and develop a more rounded game.

I can't argue or debate with posters like you or Saty. You develop such strong feelings for the individual that it blankets your view of his abilities as a player and his value to the team.

I get that McKenzie is a love child of yours. I'm more interested in our club becoming a powerhouse again. It's a ruthless business AFL. I wish McKenzie all the best in his efforts to become a more rounded midfield. But the reality is that we're going to be continually injecting more and more quality over the next couple of years and he will be squeezed out.

Wakey wakey.

What is the "one trick" of byrnes?

What is the "one trick" of byrnes?

Getting a game when no-one can see why.

He was sent back to Casey to try and develop and DISCOVER some attacking attributes. Rediscover? When have we ever seen Jordie burst out of a pack ball in hand to deliver down the throat of a forward? Or kick a running goal? We haven't ever. Some may argue that his role has never been to play the game in that way. But there's a reason why! He doesn't possess those attributes!! So yes, he's been sent back to Casey to try and develop a more rounded game.

And we never will.

I really like Jordie, he's everything I love in a player, ridiculously courageous, strong, big tackler and when there was the crap jobs to be done (tagging) he would always be given the task.

In his third year I think he was getting circa 20 touches a game and continually improving, thought we had something. Was never going to be goal kicking, match winning mid but he is an accumulator of the pill, just like Cross, Stanton or Sewell etc. Unfortunately he didn't get to there level as players but at one stage, I thought he was on the way.

With a few hard bodies in the guts now I can't see Jordie playing many games for us in the future but I will never be upset if he gets a call up.

And we never will.

I really like Jordie, he's everything I love in a player, ridiculously courageous, strong, big tackler and when there was the crap jobs to be done (tagging) he would always be given the task.

In his third year I think he was getting circa 20 touches a game and continually improving, thought we had something. Was never going to be goal kicking, match winning mid but he is an accumulator of the pill, just like Cross, Stanton or Sewell etc. Unfortunately he didn't get to there level as players but at one stage, I thought he was on the way.

With a few hard bodies in the guts now I can't see Jordie playing many games for us in the future but I will never be upset if he gets a call up.

He's only 23. Crazy to give up on him yet.

He's missed plenty of footy the last couple of years and hasn't had a good run of it. He needs a better attacking game but not exactly by much. One thing I'd like to see is him take more marks as a taller midfielder. If he can get some decent marking in his game he'll find 4 or 5 more kicks a game.

I'm staunchly against Grimes as a tagger. I think Cross is best utilized in a mix of roles and I loved the move of putting him on Macrae in a shadowing role not a pure lock down job.

It's why I'm a fan for either McKenzie in this week to tag Cotchin or possibly Evans in for Deledio and Cross to go to Cotchin at stoppages.

What is the "one trick" of byrnes?

Handball receives in the goal square, i believe.

As a poster has already pointed out, Magner and Valenti both also received brownlow votes during their short stints at AFL level.

I think I'd receive support in my comparison of McKenzie to those I mentioned in the sense that they're all one trick ponies. They don't offer enough as footballers and they share the same one attribute. Which is winning the hard ball. So the comparison is a lot closer than your ridiculous analogy suggests.

He was sent back to Casey to try and develop and DISCOVER some attacking attributes. Rediscover? When have we ever seen Jordie burst out of a pack ball in hand to deliver down the throat of a forward? Or kick a running goal? We haven't ever. Some may argue that his role has never been to play the game in that way. But there's a reason why! He doesn't possess those attributes!! So yes, he's been sent back to Casey to try and develop a more rounded game.

I can't argue or debate with posters like you or Saty. You develop such strong feelings for the individual that it blankets your view of his abilities as a player and his value to the team.

I get that McKenzie is a love child of yours. I'm more interested in our club becoming a powerhouse again. It's a ruthless business AFL. I wish McKenzie all the best in his efforts to become a more rounded midfield. But the reality is that we're going to be continually injecting more and more quality over the next couple of years and he will be squeezed out.

Wakey wakey.

1. McKenzie in 2011 received two best on ground Brownlow credits, against Freo and Essendon. Can you show me Valenti and Magers BOG Brownlow achievements.

2. McKenzie kicked a running goal in Round 5 2010 in his eighth game. You said he never kicked one. You were wrong. I can't be bothered going further.

3. McKenzie finished 9th in the 2011 Best and Fairest playing just 15 games. On a pro rata basis if he'd played the full 22 games he'd have finished 3rd.

4. McKenzie won the coaches award on three occasions, can you show me Magner and Couch's similar achievements?

5. McKenzie has played a series of lock down roles including Ablett, Griffen and Dangerfield in three of the last four games last year. This forum was full of "I was wrong" posts.

6. In the fateful game against Geelong in 2011 McKenzie had 25 possessions, 8 tackles to be MFC leading possession winner. Nathan Jones was next with 19 possessions.

In 2012 came along and Neeld's mantra of "defence" cruelled the team and McKenzie, like Trengove, embraced the change.

My post asserted that McKenzie was in a different class to Magner and Couch. I conceded that he would struggle to regain and maintain a place in the seniors from here on.

Please analytically present Magner and Couch's career highlights to show they are as good or can even be compared equally to McKenzie.

I've taken the emotion out of this Steve so you can "debate" me and Saty on the facts. I'm waiting. I don't want opinions I want facts to back up your assertion.

Go to it.

At the end of this year we have to jettison five players.

We cannot keep them all.

some of these " he is only 23 why fling him now" players have got to go.

Who is it going to be remembering who is out of contract?

A few are hanging by a thread IMO

At the end of this year we have to jettison five players.

We cannot keep them all.

some of these " he is only 23 why fling him now" players have got to go.

Who is it going to be remembering who is out of contract?

A few are hanging by a thread IMO

Clark

Byrnes

Strauss

Nicholson

Then one of Barry, Blease or Tapscott you'd think.

Bail is also OOC but at this stage you'd have to say he's looking the safest out of all the players above. I expect automatic contract extentions for the likes of Frawley (assuming he stays), Dunn, Kent, Cross, McDonald, Riley, Spencer, M. Jones & Terlich given how their seasons have gone so far. And out of the rookie listed players Georgiou & Jetta are putting their hands up for elevation and Harmes has also been promising early (at least for a 2nd year on the list). King TBA.

Another 1/2 a season to go yet. Way too early.

One running goal in 4 years?

Wow.

One running goal in 4 years?

Wow.

McKenzie kicked a running goal in Round 5 2010 in his eighth game. You said he never kicked one. You were wrong. I can't be bothered going further.

You dope. Read the last sentence.

One running goal in 4 years?

Wow.

could have used a running goal deep into the last quarter, Saturday night.

We got a running point instead.

I can't believe people calling for Blease to come in - one decent VFL performance in 8 weeks is not the kind of form we are going to reward, we should all have seen that by now.

On McKenzie, both sides of the argument have merit. On the one hand, it's very hard to deny that he's a player with obvious deficiencies. He is as lacking offensively as any player I've ever seen. On the other hand, though, that is no barrier to him improving. If he can develop his offensive game at Casey, then there will always be room in any AFL side for someone who can add that to his hardness, tackling, work ethic and potential leadership. I personally don't think it will happen, but if it does then good on him.

I get not gifting games to Blease or Toumpas. I get that Tapscott and Riley lack match fitness. I get McKenzie and Evans need to lift their skills. I get that Salem needs a preseason. I get that Michie has been injured. I get that Kent has been suspended and injured. But I'm simply finished with Byrnes.

Just work out if he wasn't on the list who would you play and then pick that person instead. Because god help me if he'll be on the list next year.

If you still think like this, then you don't get it.

This is the Bailey/Neeld attitude that got us nowhere. We are no longer going to give games to players who aren't earning it at the VFL. Byrnes has the advantage of being the incumbent. No one at Casey is playing well enough to push him out.

Now, it turns out I think he should be dropped, but not because I want to give someone else who isn't good enough or deserving his spot. I think we need to tweak our structure and I want Georgiou back in, with Dunn to play forward. I can't achieve that without Byrnes making room for Dunn. But if that doesn't happen, then Byrnes probably holds his spot until Kent is ready, or Blease repeats the effort another two or three times, or Strauss actually does something, or McKenzie or Evans improve on their glaring deficiencies, or Tapscott gets fitter and maintains form. Until then, it's Byrnes.

Just watched the replay, no way Bail gets dropped, he impacts contests and does the 1 %ers. Played well, he's improving. The other sacrificial, Byrnes, surprised me as well, so unless someones played 2 or 3 blinders in a row at Casey ( I know nobody has) they keep their spots.