Can you prove that the players knew that they were taking banned substances? Again I'll be shocked

We cant. However they have to prove they didn't. It is kinda like guilty before proven innocent

  On 22/09/2014 at 09:08, sweet dee said:

Can you prove that the players knew that they were taking banned substances? Again I'll be shocked

in reality the question SD iscan you prove they werent. Thats the onus upon them, they seemingly didnt bother. its incumbent upon them to seek verification. You dont ask the guy giviing the "nudge nudge wink wink" "she's all ok mate" you go ask outside..

I bet there were some who suspected and were happy to play the ignorant footy player etc. Some were Gullible with a capital G no doubt and there would have been those that were very suspect and just folded to peer pressure.

Granted a lot of sports ppl are no more Einsteins than the general populace but they are given education and Im surprised more parent didnt jack up about this ( npi )

According to this STATEMENT FROM THE AFL PLAYERS' ASSOCIATION, the majority of the 34 players aren't looking at making deals.

Whilst I believe that its in the players' interests to accept any deal that would limit their sanctions to half a season or less in terms of games missed, I can understand their positions and, as a member of the public, welcome a full hearing where all of the evidence and the facts would come out.

In that case, bring it on!

  On 22/09/2014 at 09:21, Whispering_Jack said:

According to this STATEMENT FROM THE AFL PLAYERS' ASSOCIATION, the majority of the 34 players aren't looking at making deals.

Whilst I believe that its in the players' interests to accept any deal that would limit their sanctions to half a season or less in terms of games missed, I can understand their positions and, as a member of the public, welcome a full hearing where all of the evidence and the facts would come out.

In that case, bring it on!

Obviously the Players Association are a bunch of Nongs who fail comprehensively to understand the WADA Code they work under.

And still the 34 idiots are getting poor representation

  On 22/09/2014 at 09:24, beelzebub said:

Obviously the Players Association are a bunch of Nongs who fail comprehensively to understand the WADA Code they work under.

And still the 34 idiots are getting poor representation

I believe the players are hanging out because they want ASADA to produce the evidence it has against them. They need to be careful about what they ask for because ASADA might well trump them by agreeing to their wishes but adding that they might have blown some brownie points and time off sentences for not co-operating.

  On 22/09/2014 at 09:38, Whispering_Jack said:

I believe the players are hanging out because they want ASADA to produce the evidence it has against them. They need to be careful about what they ask for because ASADA might well trump them by agreeing to their wishes but adding that they might have blown some brownie points and time off sentences for not co-operating.

I think that's right, it's also interesting how the players are distancing themselves from the club and Hird. It seems to be a definite strategy now with Watson expressing similar views earlier.

  On 22/09/2014 at 09:38, Whispering_Jack said:

I believe the players are hanging out because they want ASADA to produce the evidence it has against them. They need to be careful about what they ask for because ASADA might well trump them by agreeing to their wishes but adding that they might have blown some brownie points and time off sentences for not co-operating.

They keep this up and they're going to hell, do not pass go !!!

Still they dont get the idea of "co-operation"

They still dont get they they have been nicked big time. That they WILL have the evidence thrown at them at the appropriate time as befits ASADA. The players need to take some humble pie serves. They need to realise they are the in the poo

Do the "34" understand........you don't poke the bear !!!

  On 22/09/2014 at 09:38, Whispering_Jack said:

I believe the players are hanging out because they want ASADA to produce the evidence it has against them. They need to be careful about what they ask for because ASADA might well trump them by agreeing to their wishes but adding that they might have blown some brownie points and time off sentences for not co-operating.

I can't understand on what basis ASADA won't supply them the evidence they have. They know the players don't know what the hell went on so if they have evidence what possible reason would there be for not giving it to them. To demand they just agree to take sanctions when they don't know what went on and ASADA won't give them the evidence they have that convicts them is crazy. I wouldn't agree to that either. I'm pretty sure ASADA sanctions would get set aside on the basis of a failure of natural justice if they don't provide the evidence in this situation. As I understand it a lot of the players, their partners ( who have had babies or hope to have them) their families etc are very stressed about the players health. If ASADA have evidence of what they were given why on earth wouldn't they give it to them to let them all know. Crazy stuff.

  On 22/09/2014 at 10:07, It said:

If ASADA have evidence of what they were given why on earth wouldn't they give it to them to let them all know. Crazy stuff.

I don't see it's that different to any normal court proceedings. First you get charged, then there's discovery where you see the evidence, then there's the actual court case when you get to challenge the evidence.

  On 22/09/2014 at 10:07, It said:

I can't understand on what basis ASADA won't supply them the evidence they have. They know the players don't know what the hell went on so if they have evidence what possible reason would there be for not giving it to them. To demand they just agree to take sanctions when they don't know what went on and ASADA won't give them the evidence they have that convicts them is crazy. I wouldn't agree to that either. I'm pretty sure ASADA sanctions would get set aside on the basis of a failure of natural justice if they don't provide the evidence in this situation. As I understand it a lot of the players, their partners ( who have had babies or hope to have them) their families etc are very stressed about the players health. If ASADA have evidence of what they were given why on earth wouldn't they give it to them to let them all know. Crazy stuff.

i was pretty sure the other day i saw a statement that asada would re-issue the show cause notices along with the evidence they had.

i understood this would be on the appeal date set by the court

  On 22/09/2014 at 10:55, bing181 said:

I don't see it's that different to any normal court proceedings. First you get charged, then there's discovery where you see the evidence, then there's the actual court case when you get to challenge the evidence.

Except its not a process of common law. Its according to the protocols as set out in the WADA code

Those naughty lads need to understand much huh !!!

  On 22/09/2014 at 10:55, bing181 said:

I don't see it's that different to any normal court proceedings. First you get charged, then there's discovery where you see the evidence, then there's the actual court case when you get to challenge the evidence.

ASADA to present evidence to Essendon players after requests from AFL Players Association

  On 22/09/2014 at 11:09, Demonland said:

ASADA to present evidence to Essendon players after requests from AFL Players Association

and the Bear pokes back !!!

I hope they get their prof and a two year ban along with it,

Here is your proof... And here is your ban.

You had your chance... Goodbye.

  Quote

McLachlan spent considerable time in his slide presentation dwelling on the AFL's brand and he showed a slide that suggested that 50 per cent of the damage to the AFL brand this year was caused by the Essendon saga. The remaining damage had been through a combination of issues such as scheduling, fixtures and costs.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-rivals-run-out-of-patience-with-essendon-as-saga-drags-on-20140922-10kj0r.html#ixzz3E309qDz7

  On 22/09/2014 at 10:07, It said:

I can't understand on what basis ASADA won't supply them the evidence they have. They know the players don't know what the hell went on so if they have evidence what possible reason would there be for not giving it to them. To demand they just agree to take sanctions when they don't know what went on and ASADA won't give them the evidence they have that convicts them is crazy. I wouldn't agree to that either. I'm pretty sure ASADA sanctions would get set aside on the basis of a failure of natural justice if they don't provide the evidence in this situation. As I understand it a lot of the players, their partners ( who have had babies or hope to have them) their families etc are very stressed about the players health. If ASADA have evidence of what they were given why on earth wouldn't they give it to them to let them all know. Crazy stuff.

ASADA is under no compulsion to provide the players with the evidence gathered from the investigation but it did so in the case of the NRL as it is now doing with these players. In that case, ASADA also offered the players a deal and a deadline to accept. It will be interesting to see whether the AFL players receive offers and if so what they are. We need to remember the fact differences between the two investigations were significant. The Essendon programme was far more wide-ranging in terms of its scope, the number of players injected and the length of time it ran so the NRL deals are not necessarily indicative of what will happen if anything with the Bombers.

The "show cause" notice is exactly that:

"ASADA believes you have taken a banned substance. Please tell us why we shouldn't charge you."

The players can, and should, respond to this by saying:

"We do not believe we took any banned substances. At our request, all substances taken were reviewed and checked off by our club doctor and this was provided in writing to us. We believe these substances (x, y, z) were used and have no reason to believe otherwise."

Then ASADA presents evidence and recommends that they get off lightly because they were duped.

They really don't understand the process.

  On 22/09/2014 at 00:32, binman said:

I prefer the Life of Brian Paradox

Fair enough. But I thought all references to the messiah in this case were reserved for James Hird.*

* now preparing for his second third fourth coming.

  On 22/09/2014 at 13:06, Whispering_Jack said:

ASADA is under no compulsion to provide the players with the evidence gathered from the investigation but it did so in the case of the NRL as it is now doing with these players. In that case, ASADA also offered the players a deal and a deadline to accept. It will be interesting to see whether the AFL players receive offers and if so what they are. We need to remember the fact differences between the two investigations were significant. The Essendon programme was far more wide-ranging in terms of its scope, the number of players injected and the length of time it ran so the NRL deals are not necessarily indicative of what will happen if anything with the Bombers.

Exactly so, Jack. All this whingeing about the evidence (collected by an agency charged with the responsibility of collecting evidence) is just another attempt at white-anting public perception of ASADA by Essendon's fifth (rate) columnists. Coz they were so successful with their various other interventions, like the brilliantly incisive readings of the Federal Court proceedings, ASADA legislation ... in fact, everything.

My sympathies for the players are rapidly evaporating since they seem determined to join themselves to this nonsense about the evidence instead of recognising what the proper procedures are and accepting that the quickest way to resolve the issues is to allow these to be followed.

Im just curious , in a way, as to the thought processes ( or lack thereof ) in respect to the players. As I read it in effect they are awaiting ASADA's evidence to tell them what they had been given. This is bizarre. Would it not be more correct for them to be asking Golden Boy and Little to explain what exactly went on and provide them with this info ?

If you want to know what you were given ask the ones giving it, surely. Any pretence of them not knowing must be put aside now.

  On 22/09/2014 at 11:09, Demonland said:

ASADA to present evidence to Essendon players after requests from AFL Players Association

This is Gold: "The Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority will agree to present the players with parts of its case against them after repeated requests from the AFL Players’ Association. But no action from the anti-doping body will be taken until Essendon and James Hird make a call this week on whether to appeal..."

Whether the evidence would help EFC and Hird decide on an appeal I don't know but it looks like a great move by ASADA!!!

Essendon players determined not to accept guilty verdict - The Australian

Summary:

• Hird wants to appeal
• Players don't want an appeal if it delays resolution
• EFC Board will only appeal if the case is 'water tight'!

In a way I would like to see them appeal just to enjoy watching them being thrown out of court again!!

As an aside, Justice Middleton appeared to hardly be able to conceal his contempt. Could it be because he didn't appreciate Hird using his courtroom as the forum to attack AD/AFL and to absolve himself of responsibility, stuff not particularly relevant to the case.

Maybe Hird has lived in his cocoon for so long that he has lost the ability to be 'streetwise'!!

In thinking about this about the only correlation to the general idea of guilt and such as pertains to normal felony is to do with at what point a 'suspect' - "alledged user" would/might cop to the charge and from this what treatment he/she may reasonably expect.

This is my lay appreciation so jack, Red, other learned Dlanders feel free to correct.

Person X does a naughty and gets collared.They are informed they will be charged with Y offence. Now invariably this person will know full well whether they did anything or not. If they honestly believe they havent then a "not guilty" reply is not only warranted but understandable. If however they know they did it then they have a choice. Cop to it with "guilty" and seek leniency with subsequent treatment by the courts or run the gamut and try your luck hoping to slip out somehow.

The players must surely be in no doubt that the jig is up. How culpable is the only question not that they are. This to me is a point of logic they fail to grasp. Under the code they are indeed culpable as ultimately they are the ones responsible and they are not getting this. They still seem to think its someone elses fault. It may well have been some elses experiment but they could have been more dilligent and werent.

They should be seeking clarity form the club. The players must surely know now the club has done "something" as ASADA is lining all and sundry up for sanctions. Any person with a modicum of intelligence (ahhhh thats it....) Would surely think, " I dont know yet what ive taken thats banned but they do" "The club wont tell me ( bastards) but it cant be too good " maybe I need to realise I AM guilty and take this tac.

The longer the players puff their chests the worse it will be for them and rightly so.

Tbh is one were my son my first worry is over any health issues. Id have probably visited Little and Yellow Boy by now and left them in no doubt as to their place on this earth but Id also be counselling the lad as to the reality of where HE is and what if anything ( nothing ) he owes the club or the rest of the team..

We all fukk up son , its what you do afterwards that moulds the man.

They are being either 1) poorly advised or 2) they still have this stupid sense of together we stand shlt.

lads.......learn to be trees , not walls !!