On 17/06/2014 at 02:25, Baghdad Bob said:

Just remind me again what drugs were given to the players and what internal control were in place to confirm compliance? And how many positive tests have been obtained?

But of course Dank is a trustworthy honest individual who just happens to be under investigation for fraud. I'm sure he wouldn't look to profit from an involvement with a client.

And your point is Bob??

James Hird to Stephen Dank...Text message

"Get me the good stuff, We are playing Carlton this week"

I have seen the Text message chain it happened.

Carlton after that game had 3 players with broken bones from impact.

This is when the alarm was raised.

They did it and they all knew about it.

The players may not have known what the specific medication was, but they knew they all possessed stronger muscle tissue.

  On 17/06/2014 at 02:49, ManDee said:

I think EFC taking ASADA to the federal court is bringing the game into disrepute.

This is a new offence. The AFL could tell EFC to follow the normal process, they can still have their day in court. To claim ASADA have operated improperly is a blight on our game. This will not clear EFC's name, this cannot make them innocent. It is a legal ploy by EFC.

The AFL have signed up to be under the ASADA umbrella, by extension that includes EFC. For EFC to challenge ASADA they question the AFL and the other 17 clubs.

The clubs and the AFL should demand that EFC follow the legal process as agreed by all parties.

This stalling attempt by EFC creates disharmony and disdain. Further it brings the game into disrepute. It cannot give them the day in court to clear their names they craved for only last year.

If EFC think they have done no wrong they should fight the charges not the system.

We should call on the AFL to tell EFC to take their medicine or fight the charges not the system.

Opinion only:

I think the AFL are happy for court challenges to take up time to get to the completion of the H & A season. They will not want the headache of impromptu schedule changes and broadcasting holes.Majority of playing list would be wiped out.

However once this is done they will want a quick resolution via plea deals. 6 month suspension starting first week of Sept for those who don't suffer season ending injuries beforehand and finishing first week of March. They will start the "voluntary suspensions" then and have 6 months for the formalities to take place and the suspensions to be backdated.

Then in 2015 bombers can still field a team, even if it is not competitive due to individualized preseason training. Thus ensuring no scheduling or broadcasting issues for 2015.

  On 17/06/2014 at 02:25, Baghdad Bob said:

Just remind me again what drugs were given to the players and what internal control were in place to confirm compliance? And how many positive tests have been obtained.

But of course Dank is a trustworthy honest individual who just happens to be under investigation for fraud. I'm sure he wouldn't look to profit from an involvement with a client.

You aren't getting this. They don't need positive tests. They have a long paper and text trail and verbal evidence and intent (ie players signed waivers for the use)..

A retired federal court judge as well as the lawyer who drafted the WADA code and snared Lance A have been over this with a fine tooth comb..

  On 17/06/2014 at 03:25, premiers in my lifetime? said:

Opinion only:

I think the AFL are happy for court challenges to take up time to get to the completion of the H & A season. They will not want the headache of impromptu schedule changes and broadcasting holes.Majority of playing list would be wiped out.

However once this is done they will want a quick resolution via plea deals. 6 month suspension starting first week of Sept for those who don't suffer season ending injuries beforehand and finishing first week of March. They will start the "voluntary suspensions" then and have 6 months for the formalities to take place and the suspensions to be backdated.

Then in 2015 bombers can still field a team, even if it is not competitive due to individualized preseason training. Thus ensuring no scheduling or broadcasting issues for 2015.

How boring.

I was hoping to watch Essendon play in the Ammo's next year.

I still hold out hope.

http://www.ausport.gov.au/supporting/integrity_in_sport/anti_doping/anti_-_doping_policy#7

Extract from AIS Anti Doping Policy. - Note Red print is my highlight.

Article 7 Proof of doping

7.1 Burdens and standards of proof

ASADA

or the

ASC

shall have the burden of establishing that an anti-doping rule violation has occurred.

The standard of proof shall be whether

ASADA

or the

ASC

has established an anti-doping rule violation to the comfortable satisfaction of the hearing panel bearing in mind the seriousness of the allegation that is made.

This standard of proof in all cases is greater than a mere balance of probability but less than proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Where this Policy places the burden of proof upon the

Athlete

or other

Person alleged

to have committed an anti-doping rule violation to rebut a presumption or establish specified facts or circumstances, the standard of proof shall be by a balance of probability, except as provided in Articles 19.5 and 19.7 where the

Athlete

must satisfy a higher burden of proof.

12

NB:- to the comfortable satisfaction.

http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?handle=hein.journals/undauslr14&div=5&id=&page=

This is a third standard of proof and lies between "beyond reasonable doubt" and "balance of probabilities".

Note:- It is up to the athlete or other person to rebut the preusmption of guilt.

Found this little tidbit at the bottom of an article relating to Dean Robinson proceedings against Dons:

In response to Mr Robinson’s writ, the club claimed he failed to put in place an "adequate process" to ensure substances administered to players in 2011 and 2012 did not contravene the anti-doping code, were approved by the World Anti-Doping Agency, and would not harm the health and safety of its players.

But Little is adamant they didn't take anything that was banned???

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-denigrated-former-highperformance-coach-dean-robinson-court-told-20140617-zsafg.html#ixzz34rkShP00

does everyone else think this ironic

a club who has had an appalling record of process with its pharmacological experimentation is taking its regulator to court for alleged technical misuse of process in investigating it

they are still obviously struggling with the concept of good process

  On 17/06/2014 at 02:25, Baghdad Bob said:

Just remind me again what drugs were given to the players and what internal control were in place to confirm compliance? And how many positive tests have been obtained.

But of course Dank is a trustworthy honest individual who just happens to be under investigation for fraud. I'm sure he wouldn't look to profit from an involvement with a client.

Awesome.

So as long as you hire a dodgy biochemist and say "here's a cheque, give me the good stuff doc just tell me it's ok and don't tell me what it is, " then you can take anything.

If that defence is accepted then WADA code = toilet paper and the state of sport in this country is changed forever for the worse .

  On 17/06/2014 at 04:12, daisycutter said:

does everyone else think this ironic

a club who has had an appalling record of process with its pharmacological experimentation is taking its regulator to court for alleged technical misuse of process in investigating it

they are still obviously struggling with the concept of good process

Funny you should mention this dc.

I was thinking the same thing this morning when listening to SEN.

You could take the view that they are experts at poor process so would know it when they see it!!!!

  On 17/06/2014 at 04:09, Cards13 said:

Found this little tidbit at the bottom of an article relating to Dean Robinson proceedings against Dons:

In response to Mr Robinson’s writ, the club claimed he failed to put in place an "adequate process" to ensure substances administered to players in 2011 and 2012 did not contravene the anti-doping code, were approved by the World Anti-Doping Agency, and would not harm the health and safety of its players.

But Little is adamant they didn't take anything that was banned???

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-denigrated-former-highperformance-coach-dean-robinson-court-told-20140617-zsafg.html#ixzz34rkShP00

So what the article is are saying is that the club claimed that its employee failed to put in place a program to ensure the players did not contravene the anti doping code.

Which means that the club had no system in place to ensure that no breaches took place.

By their own admission they had no system to guarantee that they did not break the rules.

Sorry but what was Essendon's defence again?

We had no system.

We have no records.

We ordered and paid for stuff. Sometimes the good stuff.

We paid for the stuff to be administered.

We don't know what the stuff was.

But none of our players took illegal substances. - According to our records which we don't have.

And anyway how dare ASADA get help from the AFL after all we self reported and invited them in because we knew our shredders are really fast and they wouldn't find anything.

But now it's all looking ugly, and can we blame the umpire or Andrew D or the AFL or ASADA or WADA or the system or a rogue employee or 2? No not James he has golden hair and he knows what we do with goats down at the lodge.

GUILTY

  On 17/06/2014 at 04:12, daisycutter said:

does everyone else think this ironic

a club who has had an appalling record of process with its pharmacological experimentation is taking its regulator to court for alleged technical misuse of process in investigating it

they are still obviously struggling with the concept of good process

Translation - they are still struggling with getting caught cheating.

  On 17/06/2014 at 05:17, ManDee said:

So what the article is are saying is that the club claimed that its employee failed to put in place a program to ensure the players did not contravene the anti doping code.

Which means that the club had no system in place to ensure that no breaches took place.

By their own admission they had no system to guarantee that they did not break the rules.

Sorry but what was Essendon's defence again?

We had no system.

We have no records.

We ordered and paid for stuff. Sometimes the good stuff.

We paid for the stuff to be administered.

We don't know what the stuff was.

But none of our players took illegal substances. - According to our records which we don't have.

And anyway how dare ASADA get help from the AFL after all we self reported and invited them in because we knew our shredders are really fast and they wouldn't find anything.

But now it's all looking ugly, and can we blame the umpire or Andrew D or the AFL or ASADA or WADA or the system or a rogue employee or 2? No not James he has golden hair and he knows what we do with goats down at the lodge.

GUILTY

Bloody Hell MD if Essendrug are going to the Supreme Court with that defence i will have the Benny Hill music cued and ready to go!!

  On 17/06/2014 at 03:25, premiers in my lifetime? said:

Opinion only:

I think the AFL are happy for court challenges to take up time to get to the completion of the H & A season. They will not want the headache of impromptu schedule changes and broadcasting holes.Majority of playing list would be wiped out.

However once this is done they will want a quick resolution via plea deals. 6 month suspension starting first week of Sept for those who don't suffer season ending injuries beforehand and finishing first week of March. They will start the "voluntary suspensions" then and have 6 months for the formalities to take place and the suspensions to be backdated.

Then in 2015 bombers can still field a team, even if it is not competitive due to individualized preseason training. Thus ensuring no scheduling or broadcasting issues for 2015.

Much of this I suspect is actually the case. It works for the AFL for it to drag til season's end.. Would really be the TOO HARD BASKET if anything had to happen immediately but that might still be the case, or in the very near future.

As to the convenience of back dating ? I doubt WADA would approve such shenanigans and the way its going no one's going to get leniency offered.

Little and Co are cooking their own goose

  On 17/06/2014 at 06:13, beelzebub said:

Much of this I suspect is actually the case. It works for the AFL for it to drag til season's end.. Would really be the TOO HARD BASKET if anything had to happen immediately but that might still be the case, or in the very near future.

As to the convenience of back dating ? I doubt WADA would approve such shenanigans and the way its going no one's going to get leniency offered.

Little and Co are cooking their own goose

I wondered what that smell was.

I speculate, If two players take a deal and fess up. EFC becomes a sporting team with 2 or more members banned under the anti doping code. My understanding is that, that means a mandatory 2 year banning of the club from any ASADA sporting code..

Next season the AFL creates the Tassie Bombers using available EFC players plus the EFC players as they come back from 6 month suspension in March. If extra players are required each club could provide one 50 game + player to make up the numbers (remember Ted Fidge) We could offer Shannon Byrnes.

Players would be free to move from EFC as they (EFC) would have breached the conditions of their contracts.

Essendon sits out two years and is entitled to return under strict conditions ie move to Tassie , do as they are told. Remember they will be near bankrupt. No sponsors and huge payments on the hangar.

I dream.

Essendon should break out the Chewbacca defence

  On 17/06/2014 at 02:25, Baghdad Bob said:

Just remind me again what drugs were given to the players and what internal control were in place to confirm compliance? And how many positive tests have been obtained?

But of course Dank is a trustworthy honest individual who just happens to be under investigation for fraud. I'm sure he wouldn't look to profit from an involvement with a client.

Bob, if you're asking that question at this stage of proceedings, you need to go back several hundred pages and brush up on your reading.

  On 17/06/2014 at 06:36, Mike Nolan said:

Essendon should break out the Chewbacca defence

I think they already have.

Or was it the Lewinski defence. We did not have Beta 4 with that Dank. Mind you that clinic across the road gave us a few good jabs.

  On 17/06/2014 at 03:23, why you little said:

Carlton after that game had 3 players with broken bones from impact.

I'm not sure if that was the number but it's been mentioned before that in the week following the game, certain people from Carlton turned up at a certain compounding chemist's premises enquiring about the juice the Bombers were on. This was reported in the Age and was also confirmed to me by someone high up in the chain at the Blues. Apparently, they had received overtures from a sports scientist who was pushing the same supplements programme and had rejected it out of hand because they couldn't be satisfied that it was all Kosher.

  On 17/06/2014 at 03:25, premiers in my lifetime? said:

Opinion only:

I think the AFL are happy for court challenges to take up time to get to the completion of the H & A season. They will not want the headache of impromptu schedule changes and broadcasting holes.Majority of playing list would be wiped out.

However once this is done they will want a quick resolution via plea deals. 6 month suspension starting first week of Sept for those who don't suffer season ending injuries beforehand and finishing first week of March. They will start the "voluntary suspensions" then and have 6 months for the formalities to take place and the suspensions to be backdated.

Then in 2015 bombers can still field a team, even if it is not competitive due to individualized preseason training. Thus ensuring no scheduling or broadcasting issues for 2015.

That will not happen. ASADA would not be generous enough to allow the six months to operate entirely throughout the off season.

If the Essendon (and other) players are going to take the rap then it's virually now (i.e. before 23 June) or never and I reckon they'll be kicking themselves later if they don't take it.

  On 17/06/2014 at 07:14, Whispering_Jack said:

I'm not sure if that was the number but it's been mentioned before that in the week following the game, certain people from Carlton turned up at a certain compounding chemist's premises enquiring about the juice the Bombers were on. This was reported in the Age and was also confirmed to me by someone high up in the chain at the Blues. Apparently, they had received overtures from a sports scientist who was pushing the same supplements programme and had rejected it out of hand because they couldn't be satisfied that it was all Kosher.

i heard it all from a very reliable source also inside Carlton.

3 players had bad fractures and they went to Ratten furious...it then rolled.

  On 17/06/2014 at 07:43, why you little said:

i heard it all from a very reliable source also inside Carlton.

3 players had bad fractures and they went to Ratten furious...it then rolled.

What were the fractures?

  On 17/06/2014 at 07:17, Whispering_Jack said:

That will not happen. ASADA would not be generous enough to allow the six months to operate entirely throughout the off season.

If the Essendon (and other) players are going to take the rap then it's virually now (i.e. before 23 June) or never and I reckon they'll be kicking themselves later if they don't take it.

Not sure on this. When USADA pursued Lance they were able to accommodate out of season bans for several riders who gave testimony and in doing so implicated themselves. It took many months of negotiation to orchestrate this, but in the end USADA got what they wanted. My gut feeling is that ASADA will take the same approach, particularly given that they are being advised by one the leading lights of the USADA investigation into Lance.

  On 17/06/2014 at 07:49, Redleg said:

What were the fractures?

not sure Leg. Didn't see the game.

I am guessing arms, collarbones or ribs