Dan Nicholson - Crumbing Forward

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

So is your position that instead of recruiting Nicholson, we should have recruited some other guy from the ammos who also probably wouldn't have made it?

I'm all for moaning about our drafting, but honestly, WGAF if we drafted an ordinary player with pick 14 in the rookie draft. The probability of getting good players that deep in to the draft is slim, so the consequence of blowing it is immaterial. If you stood it next to the consequence of those botched first rounders, you wouldn't even be able to see it.

Fair post. Maybe it annoys me that they did draft from the ammos and Nicholson is the one they picked up. I'm telling you now his skills let him down even at VAFA level.

It's my frustration and annoyance of the clubs past decisions that's amplifying my disposition on this Nicholson thing. That and the fact that some people continue to believe he will develop into a decent player.

[DeeMfc 621]

Whatever you reckon Neeldy.

Ahhh yer good one.....

Do you agree with the rest of my last post?

Edited July 3, 2013 by DeeMfc

[old dee 24,001]

Old dee, please. Enough with the breaks.

I want this club to improve.

Give ME a break.

You were suggesting he was another poor selection.

I was trying to point out he was a rookie selection, if 1 in 10 turn out you are lucky.

I have on numerous occasions pointed out i don,t think nicholson is good enough.

But he has produced a lot more than a dam lot of people selected much higher Than him.

IMO he played well on Saturday night .

Edited July 3, 2013 by old dee

[jazza 1,323]

You may be right but you are 'still' failing to take into consideration the difference in experience, height, weight etc.

It was not the correct match up to begin with and Nicho did well all things considered. I reckon this was a test by NC to see how he went on a bigger, stronger more experienced opponent.

Dunn would have been a more ideal match up on Griffen and Nicho would have done a better job on Liberatore who was clearly best on ground.

sometimes all teams have a mismatch, it is decided when the coach does for the better of the team.

I thought OUR team effort was terrific on the weekend and maybe, just maybe another match up would have been impeded had the switch been made

maybe that matchup allowed us to win a matchup elsewhere

[DeeMfc 621]

sometimes all teams have a mismatch, it is decided when the coach does for the better of the team.

I thought OUR team effort was terrific on the weekend and maybe, just maybe another match up would have been impeded had the switch been made

maybe that matchup allowed us to win a matchup elsewhere

Agreed.

Just trying to put a bit of perspective to the Nicho vs Griffen debate.

[jazza 1,323]

Agreed.

Just trying to put a bit of perspective to the Nicho vs Griffen debate.

its all good brother

footy is a team game

[stuie 7,374]

Ahhh yer good one.....

Do you agree with the rest of my last post?

It's irrelevant.

People are praising his game, I said he let his opponent play too well, you said he was a little shorter and lighter. So what?!

[P-man 13,366]

stu, you're being pretty harsh on the lad. He was on Griffen who is right now in the top 5 midfielders in the league and just short of "untaggable" territory. He held him well for the bulk of the match (8 touches in the first half from memory), whilst managing to be damaging itself. Credit where credit is due.

[angrydee 842]

I wouldn't want to be a player defended by saty - so far he has defended (to their departures) Schwab, McLardy and every board and staff member.

His track record ain't great.

Good luck Nicho

[DeeMfc 621]

It's irrelevant.

People are praising his game, I said he let his opponent play too well, you said he was a little shorter and lighter. So what?!

It's completely relevant.

Regardless of the fact that he didn't have him the whole game and Griffen is playing brownlow medal quality footy this year you still can't give 'a little' credit where it's due...

BTW. I love the way you pick and choose snippets of posts to distort what people are saying.

[stuie 7,374]

stu, you're being pretty harsh on the lad. He was on Griffen who is right now in the top 5 midfielders in the league and just short of "untaggable" territory. He held him well for the bulk of the match (8 touches in the first half from memory), whilst managing to be damaging itself. Credit where credit is due.

I've given him credit for his ball getting, but I expected more of our fittest player than to fall apart so badly.

I have nothing against Nicho, he's a hard worker, but I think he just doesn't have the talent and skills to make it in an improving team.

IMO he's in the same club as McLardy, Schwab, Neeld, McKenzie, and a fair few more. It's the "good bloke, but not quite good enough to be the guy to take us forward" club.

[P-man 13,366]

I wouldn't want to be a player defended by saty - so far he has defended (to their departures) Schwab, McLardy and every board and staff member.

His track record ain't great.

Good luck Nicho

Satyr doesn't seem to understand that constantly painting everything as rosy, when it clearly isn't, shoots your credibility to pieces. Anyone who is critical is an "orc".

The guy is a few stubbies short of a sixer. He reminds me of a teenage girl who will slash your face to pieces if you have anything bad to say about OneDirection.

Edited July 3, 2013 by P_Man

[stuie 7,374]

It's completely relevant.

Regardless of the fact that he didn't have him the whole game and Griffen is playing brownlow medal quality footy this year you still can't give 'a little' credit where it's due...

BTW. I love the way you pick and choose snippets of posts to distort what people are saying.

Far out. How many more times do I have to say it?

Offensive game, thumbs up. Defensive game, thumbs down.

I'm not saying he had a bad game, but I don't think it was a game that he should be praised for like some are.

[DeeMfc 621]

Oh lord.... Look at Nicho's opponents stats from last week, Hannebery will get 80 touches and 17 goals this week if Nicho tags him.

Far out. How many more times do I have to say it?

Offensive game, thumbs up. Defensive game, thumbs down.

I'm not saying he had a bad game, but I don't think it was a game that he should be praised for like some are.

Thats a more balanced appraisal.

Certainly not in line with your earlier post above...

FWIW I agree with you that he may not make it in the long run. Just saying give the kid a chance to prove his worth in a season that's been a train wreck anyway.

[stuie 7,374]

Thats a more balanced appraisal.

Certainly not in line with your earlier post above...

FWIW I agree with you that he may not make it in the long run. Just saying give the kid a chance to prove his worth in a season that's been a train wreck anyway.

It's completely in line with my earlier post. In both posts I said his defensive tagger side is not good enough. Pretty obvious really.

There's a bunch of players who I like effort wise but won't be on our list in the future if we're genuinely improving:

Nicholson, McKenzie, Magner, Couch, Davis, Taggert, Tynan.

Then there's some spuds/oldies who should definitely be on the way out end of season:

Gillies, Rodan, Byrnes, Sellar, Pedersen. (Some of them are still contracted tho).

[Outside fifty 967]

Satyr doesn't seem to understand that constantly painting everything as rosy, when it clearly isn't, shoots your credibility to pieces. Anyone who is critical is an "orc".

The guy is a few stubbies short of a sixer. He reminds me of a teenage girl who will slash your face to pieces if you have anything bad to say about OneDirection.

I swear to god P_man, if you dis ONE D again i'll put you on ignore. As for Satyricon, I find his cult like zeal for all things demon a positive. He balances the overwhelming negativity that prevails these forums with Tom Cruise like enthusiasm. In many ways he is our Yin to Stuies Yang.

[Generation dee 1,336]

Old dee, please. Enough with the breaks.

I want this club to improve.

Give ME a break.

Oh yeah- you're one of those guys who bag the club for playing youngsters, blame them for trying to bring in mature players to fill the gaps, now blame them for trying to develop players?

Give US a break!

[jackaub 1,402]

His problem down back as far as I can tell is he hasn't been able to become either an attacking defender or a stopping defender. Strauss has had the same problem.

He finds enough of the ball to be an attacking player but then he butchers it. Or if he locks down on someone but can't do it well enough. I worry that his reactionary nature will prevent him ever become a good enough defender and as you mentioned his kicking will ever let him become a good option with the ball.

A bit like Harry O who got by in a good side for a long time but last year began to really struggle and hence has been moved to a wing to let him use his athleticism.

Terlich so far has proven he is a reasonable stopping defender but has been excellent at attacking finding heaps of the ball and generally using it well. Clisby has shown that he's got attacking instincts with good possession counts and his defensive work has been ok as well without playing on really quality opponents.

Speaking of Harry O i cannot wait until he gets cleaned up big time Cant stand the B S artist Now that his team struggles Harry is ineffective

I really liked Nichos game on Saturday i would rather he take the game on and make some mistakes than just chase and be defensive I m hoping he has found a role We need another Bartram

[Satyriconhome 10,880]

Satyr doesn't seem to understand that constantly painting everything as rosy, when it clearly isn't, shoots your credibility to pieces. Anyone who is critical is an "orc".

The guy is a few stubbies short of a sixer. He reminds me of a teenage girl who will slash your face to pieces if you have anything bad to say about OneDirection.

It depends on your definition of critical, bagging for bagging sake is not criticism, it is like a poster on this topic who said Nichos skills let him down in the Ammos, strange didn't stop him being judged by others as the best player in the whole comp.

Also I do not defend, what I get continually peeved about is the lack of facts put forward in arguments, or discussions based on a rumour or heresay, when you ask somebody to back something up, nothing, and then we got a torrent of hindsight pundits going I told you so, or revisionists

I don't paint everything as rosy, I just wait to see what eventuates, coz unlike some on here, I realise I have no influence whatsoever in the decisions made.

Unfortunately these days a lot of the 'decisions' are media driven, but that is not just restricted to the footy world

Some posters on here seem more concerned about me than the footy, which in a perverse way I find flattering

[Satyriconhome 10,880]

Oh yeah- you're one of those guys who bag the club for playing youngsters, blame them for trying to bring in mature players to fill the gaps, now blame them for trying to develop players?

Give US a break!

Well said.

[Machsy 2,858]

I'll just put two examples, when we got Morton at 4 we received congratulations from everybody else, Cook was U18 AA and was expected to go top 10.............every club has poor choices......why do you think suddenly mature age recruits are being picked up........less of a chance of failure

Your efforts to defend the virtue of all aspects of the club are noble, but simply embarrassing when you go to these lengths.

I think you'd be better off accepting that the club has made mistakes, many and often.

Otherwise we wouldn't be anchored to the bottom of the ladder for 7 years.

Morton was a consensus top 5 pick. Probably top 3.

But West Coast made the "what are they thinking?" pick, seemingly intent on going for a local kid at 3, but having history with the Morton family. Masten was viewed as an inferior choice at that stage.

Did they know something we didn't? That we now consider to have been unforeseeable?

After their first season or 2, we were rubbing our hands together with glee.

Today, I know who we'd all choose, out of the 2.

Cook was never touted as top 10.

Barely top 20.

I expected him to go around 25 and was shocked to hear his name called.

All I could fathom was that Barry had his mind set on a KPP and didn't expect both of Lynch and Gorringe to be gone, with only Prestia and Caddy to be mids we would ignore our pressing needs for.

I gave BP the benefit of the doubt at the time, seeing as on paper Cook made a bit of sense.

Somehow attained AA CHF status. Kicked goals, had nice skills, good sized frame to build on.

Like a slower Jack Watts, and it was only a matter of months before Watts was due to become the game's dominant silky tall forward.

I honestly believe the majority of recruiters would have had a quiet chuckle at our choice on the day.

In retrospect, I can only view it as stubbornly picking for needs in spite of where they sat within the talent available.

That and BP's track record for largely ignoring character and desire when assessing a draft pick.

Defend the club if you must, satyriconhome, but don't revise history.

[Satyriconhome 10,880]

Your efforts to defend the virtue of all aspects of the club are noble, but simply embarrassing when you go to these lengths.

I think you'd be better off accepting that the club has made mistakes, many and often.

Otherwise we wouldn't be anchored to the bottom of the ladder for 7 years.

Morton was a consensus top 5 pick. Probably top 3.

But West Coast made the "what are they thinking?" pick, seemingly intent on going for a local kid at 3, but having history with the Morton family. Masten was viewed as an inferior choice at that stage.

Did they know something we didn't? That we now consider to have been unforeseeable?

After their first season or 2, we were rubbing our hands together with glee.

Today, I know who we'd all choose, out of the 2.

Cook was never touted as top 10.

Barely top 20.

I expected him to go around 25 and was shocked to hear his name called.

All I could fathom was that Barry had his mind set on a KPP and didn't expect both of Lynch and Gorringe to be gone, with only Prestia and Caddy to be mids we would ignore our pressing needs for.

I gave BP the benefit of the doubt at the time, seeing as on paper Cook made a bit of sense.

Somehow attained AA CHF status. Kicked goals, had nice skills, good sized frame to build on.

Like a slower Jack Watts, and it was only a matter of months before Watts was due to become the game's dominant silky tall forward.

I honestly believe the majority of recruiters would have had a quiet chuckle at our choice on the day.

In retrospect, I can only view it as stubbornly picking for needs in spite of where they sat within the talent available.

That and BP's track record for largely ignoring character and desire when assessing a draft pick.

Defend the club if you must, satyriconhome, but don't revise history.

I am not defending the Club, I just don't stand on a pedestal looking back with hindsight and saying 'oh look, I told you so"........I keep repeating, I am always baffled by some MFC supporters who just can't let go of the past and have to keep raking it up

Of course the Club made mistakes, don't you?, or are you perfect, but that is the past, gone, finished.

I refuse point blank to keep beating myself up over the past, what is the point?

One point, you don't just somehow attain AA status, that's being over cute wouldn't you think, they are picked by knowledgeable footy people based on performance, so you may be revisioning now.

What would you like to see, Schwab, Prendergast, McLardy made to do a lap of the MCG in hair shirts, some supporters really do need to get over themselves..this is footy..I would like to see Lehman Bros executives publicly flogged, but it ain't gonna happen

Edited July 4, 2013 by Satyriconhome

[rpfc 28,906]

I am not defending the Club, I just don't stand on a pedestal looking back with hindsight and saying 'oh look, I told you so"........I keep repeating, I am always baffled by some MFC supporters who just can't let go of the past and have to keep raking it up

Of course the Club made mistakes, don't you?, or are you perfect, but that is the past, gone, finished.

I refuse point blank to keep beating myself up over the past, what is the point?

One point, you don't just somehow attain AA status, that's being over cute wouldn't you think, they are picked by knowledgeable footy people based on performance, so you may be revisioning now.

What would you like to see, Schwab, Prendergast, McLardy made to do a lap of the MCG in hair shirts, some supporters really do need to get over themselves..this is footy..I would like to see Lehman Bros executives publicly flogged, but it ain't gonna happen

Our list is bad.

There are a myriad of reasons why that is.

I refuse to believe that acknowledging the truth is 'not letting go of the past.'

I don't want blame to be apportioned, I don't care. Some of the the reasons go back to the late 90s. I have actively said that posters should not pinpoint individuals.

But let's get serious about the future. And apart of that is recognising what not to do in the draft, with trades, and with your older players. And you could write a 'How To' book on Recruitment and List Management by writing the reverse of what we have done over the past decade and a bit.

[Satyriconhome 10,880]

Our list is bad.

There are a myriad of reasons why that is.

I refuse to believe that acknowledging the truth is 'not letting go of the past.'

I don't want blame to be apportioned, I don't care. Some of the the reasons go back to the late 90s. I have actively said that posters should not pinpoint individuals.

But let's get serious about the future. And apart of that is recognising what not to do in the draft, with trades, and with your older players. And you could write a 'How To' book on Recruitment and List Management by writing the reverse of what we have done over the past decade and a bit.

It is not acknowledging the truth, most posters on this board, myself included, would not know what the whole truth is concerning how the Club reached the point they reached a couple of weeks ago, we all have opinions or the rebuttal of, a lot of which are based on half truths, rumour, innuendo, chinese whispers etc etc........driven by so called journalists, trying to create a story out of nothing........have you seen this week's question, 3 times Nathan Jones has been asked whether he wants to be captain...trying to make a story

As far as the recruiting goes, having five different coaches (if you include the caretakers)in the period you mentioned, doesn't exactly bring stability as to what the on field 22 never mind the playing list should look like, wouldn't you think

All this was started because a guy recruited by the Dark Side played one of his best games for the Club, not necessarily a great game but for 3 qtrs he helped neutralise one of the in form midfielders in the comp, some posters because of the past seem reluctant to acknowledge that, or his improvement, which is a concern to some of us

[Machsy 2,858]

My issue is that you, satyriconhome, are completely misrepresenting the past for the purposes of your argument.

The past about Morton and Cook, which YOU brought up.

That is all.