I wanted to discuss an aspect of how we can get better in 2014, and what midfieders in their prime the new coach will have at his disposal.

I have developed an arbitrary formula for determining when players reach their 'prime' (the experience and time to build your body to consistently give your best). It's a sliding scale of Years in the system OR Games played depending on how old the player was when taken:

18/19: 4 Y, 70G

20: 3Y, 60G

21: 3Y, 50G

22: 2Y, 40G

23: 2Y, 30G

24: 1Y, 20G

25: 1Y, 10G

As soon as a player has had their minimum years of experience then the amount of games played against their current age will determine whether they have reached their 'prime.' Basically, Sellar is in his prime because he has played more than 10 games as a 25 year old even though he has not played the 70 games since being drafted as a teenager.

From this, admittedly arbitrary, table the following are our prime midfielders this year: Jones, Grimes, Bail, Davey, Rodan, Sylvia, Byrnes and Magner.

Prime in 2014

In 2014, these names will be added to that list: M.Jones, McKenzie, Trengove, Blease, Couch, Tapscott, and Howe.

This will mean adding 4 or 5 players to the list of midfielders that, assuming they have a decent pre-season, can be counted on to be at their best and ready to contribute consistently.

Young Mids with a Elite Facet

Added to these names can be those that don't graduate just yet for their prime but bring an elite facet to the AFL from day one; they can contribute immediately. I can see 4 of those amongst our young mids: Viney (clearances), Evans (ball winning), Toumpas (skills), and Kent (skills).

Analysis

While this is not scientific I think it gives a rough guide to why we have been so poor and how it can turn around. It will come, predominantly, from those players I have named: Jones, M.Jones, Magner, McKenzie, Grimes, Trengove, Bail, Blease, Tapscott, Howe, and Sylvia (if he sticks around). With Viney, Evans, Toumpas, and Kent able to play small roles next year.

That list is not fantastic, obviously, but I just wanted to highlight those that should be reaching the point where they should be able to play consistent footy, and for the footy club to make a judgement on these players. If the judgement on M.Jones, Bail, Magner, Tapscott, and Blease is more positive than negative, and if Trengove and Grimes can be healthy this November (and stay healthy) then we will improve in 2014.

I'd also suggest that we'd be looking to trade in a young turk returning to Victoria (Caddy type) and a FA (Daisy/ Goddard type) to help shift the above balance further in our favour.

I'd also suggest that we'd be looking to trade in a young turk returning to Victoria (Caddy type) and a FA (Daisy/ Goddard type) to help shift the above balance further in our favour.

Absolutely, but the improvement always comes through what you have. And the above is what we will have...

A bird in the hand... is signed to a contract.

I'd also suggest that we'd be looking to trade in a young turk returning to Victoria (Caddy type) and a FA (Daisy/ Goddard type) to help shift the above balance further in our favour.

think your right big fella , thats the aim of the fd for next draft

dawes, clark were taken as big body types dont hit the open market often

so now its off to the bingo hall to see if we can score a couple of ripper mids and draft maybe 2

i keep saying 2014 wont be as bad as people suggest

We should put them through a series of tests and then we see what we have got, this is more order of importance to make it as an AFL Midfielder so we will elimate once a player doesn't meet a standard:

Skills: The ability to take clean possession and hit targets by hand or foot

Pass Jones, Sylvia, Grimes, Blease, Howe, M Jones, Viney, Toumpas, Kent, Trengove, Tapscott, Evans

Fail: McKenzie, Bail, Magner

Endurance the ability to rum all day in the Midfield

Fail Blease, Tapscott

Unknown Kent

Speed and Agility, not to be the quickest blokes but have enough pace to keep up

Fail Trengove

The Desire to compete

Fail Sylvia

This leaves us with Jones, M Jones, Viney, Grimes, Evans and Howe with Toumpas the great unknown.

Absolutely, but the improvement always comes through what you have. And the above is what we will have...

A bird in the hand... is signed to a contract.

Agree, however that list does not fill me with huge amounts of optimism... the improvement required to catch and surpass most of those teams above us is scary big.

Our onfield improvement and climb up the ladder will come from some of these players but not all.

It doesn't matter how many games or at what age they 'hit their peak' if they are not AFL standard football players. We have a plethora of them and that's thanks to our recruiting and development team.

Our onfield improvement and climb up the ladder will come from some of these players but not all.

It doesn't matter how many games or at what age they 'hit their peak' if they are not AFL standard football players. We have a plethora of them and that's thanks to our recruiting and development team.

I agree, and this unscientific table is also helpful with determining when a judgement can be made on someone.

As 'prime' only means they have reached the point where they can consistently give their best.

If their best isn't good enough...

I attended the Western Demons pre-game function at the Subiaco club rooms last Sunday where Mahoney and Craig answered a few questions regards the team.

Their comments on the midfield:

• We will absolutely be targetting midfielders come trade/draft time as a priority
• Said that we really have 8 or 9 players that can play through the middle whereas the better teams like Essendon etc have 12. Highlighted that as a major constraint.
• Once again reminded us of the number of games our young mids have in them - patience is needed etc
• Work is going on in the background to retain and extend the contracts of our better players like Sylvia

Also, in talks with Frawley as we speak.

I agree, and this unscientific table is also helpful with determining when a judgement can be made on someone.

As 'prime' only means they have reached the point where they can consistently give their best.

If their best isn't good enough...

RP, with all due respect, it is easy to judge a players skill level, footy smarts, ball handling ability, speed and agility from the first time they step on the field.

I saw it and called it early on with Morton, Bail, McKenzie, Magner, Couch, Pederson, Bate etc..

It is easy enough to see. I would like to ask a question, and this is not a battle of egos. What is the highest level or grade of football that you have played?

RP, with all due respect, it is easy to judge a players skill level, footy smarts, ball handling ability, speed and agility from the first time they step on the field.

I saw it and called it early on with Morton, Bail, McKenzie, Magner, Couch, Pederson, Bate etc..

It is easy enough to see. I would like to ask a question, and this is not a battle of egos. What is the highest level or grade of football that you have played?

Is that a rhetorical question?

My point was that physical development and AFL experience is the deferrment of all negative judgements: I say this player is 'no good' and you say 'he hasn't been given enough time.' This table would give a rough guide to say 'he has had 4 years, enough games - no more waiting.'

And don't bother with 'due respect' if you have none.

I currently play the highest level of amateur footy in Canberra if it matters.

But it doesn't matter.

midfields aren't hard to build, unless your name is Mark Neeld and you have no idea

Absolutely, but the improvement always comes through what you have. And the above is what we will have...

A bird in the hand... is signed to a contract.

Not exactly - it is what you (and the individual does) do with what you have.

If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always got - so we clearly need to do something very different with what we do and what we will have. Does that mean replacing Choko with say Ratten, if we can lure him back? Or some other mid coach?

Choko certainly doesn't seem to have been a success with our mids, over ? 6 years, so IMO a change here is mandatory.

Not exactly - it is what you (and the individual does) do with what you have.

If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always got - so we clearly need to do something very different with what we do and what we will have. Does that mean replacing Choko with say Ratten, if we can lure him back? Or some other mid coach?

Choko certainly doesn't seem to have been a success with our mids, over ? 6 years, so IMO a change here is mandatory.

Is this a post in support of a new coach?

Because it would be an irrelevant post if that is the case. My first line in the OP says "new coach."

I am attempting to give an idea of when players can be ajudged to have reached their peak - no matter who the coach is.

And that is peak for better or worse, good or bad, star or list clogger.

Is that a rhetorical question?

My point was that physical development and AFL experience is the deferrment of all negative judgements: I say this player is 'no good' and you say 'he hasn't been given enough time.' This table would give a rough guide to say 'he has had 4 years, enough games - no more waiting.'

And don't bother with 'due respect' if you have none.

I currently play the highest level of amateur footy in Canberra if it matters.

But it doesn't matter.

It does matter.

I think most supporters understand that you can improve your tank and the physiology of your body within the AFL system which will of course lead to more consistency on field in some capacity, however all I am saying is, for many on our list, it doesn't matter how much experience, age, improvement of aerobic capacity and physiology of the body occurs throughout their career if they don't have the basic skills and smarts are not instinctive from day one. Football skills and smarts are the imperative. The rest is secondary.

This is why I don't agree with your stance on where our improvement will come from next year.

My point about playing the game is very much an important factor when analysing players, because it is easy to pick out skill sets and footy smarts if you have played the game at a high level.

This is our midfield Atm

Nathan Jones

Colin Sylvia

Mat Jones

Michael Evans

Jordie Mckenzie

Jack Trengove

James Magner

Jack Viney

Jimmy Toumpas

Jack Grimes

Dom Barry

Dean Kent

Rohan Bail

If we can keep Sylvia which I hope we do then grab a gun midfielder from Free Agency/Trade then ad couple of gun ball magnets like Luke Dunstan and Matt Crouch plus full Pre season and bigger bodies into Viney, Toumpas, Kent and Barry it doesn't look all that bad.

I strongly believe Jordie Mckenzie has gone backwards under Neeld (who hasn't) 2010 and 2011 I thought he was one of our up and coming tagger and I remember a lot of people on here were comparing him to the next Cameron Ling, there were articles in the paper at the time on why he was rigged on not getting a rising star nomination. He was leading the AFL tackle count at one stage I remember. Trengove showed in his first two years that he can become an elite onballer but under Neeld he has gone backwards again. I think bring on an experience coach like a Mark Williams and things could change..

Ps why did we get rid of Scott West?

Some of the best midfielders currently in the game had serious doubts on their abilities to play at the highest level let alone be elite in the first 4 years of their careers. names that spring to mind for a variety of reasons are Watson, Kennedy, Swan, Bartel and Stevie J. Their development changed for a variety of reasons. Sometimes things are not as bad as they seem and sometimes science doesn't mean much.

If we get some priority picks that will open up some room to trade for established players - we don't have the time to choose anymore development players like Toumpas.

There is also the option of trading Watts aswell.

I don't like this option that much, particulary because he was improving last year and I'd like to see him up forward but with Hogan coming I think it's more important to trade him for an established midfielder or even better defender whilst he still has value.

Otherwise we will end up trading him like Johnstone or Morton

This is why I don't agree with your stance on where our improvement will come from next year.

Again, I am using the above as a rule for all players - if you have no discernable skills then of course a judgement can be made.

I, at no point, say we will improve. I only state that these midfielders entering, or in, their prime will determine whether our midfield improves. We may stagnate - we may get worse.

My point about playing the game is very much an important factor when analysing players, because it is easy to pick out skill sets and footy smarts if you have played the game at a high level.

If you are a keen follower of football you can have that talent. You do not need to play football with the people you are trying to appraise, nor do you require some sort of special 'football level played' qualification.

Quite frankly I find that as a lazy argument used by people who have an inkling they are talking to someone who has not played a great deal of football.

Talent is easily discernable for smart people who love footy, nevermind their level of football experience.

I strongly believe Jordie Mckenzie has gone backwards under Neeld (who hasn't) 2010 and 2011 I thought he was one of our up and coming tagger and I remember a lot of people on here were comparing him to the next Cameron Ling, there were articles in the paper at the time on why he was rigged on not getting a rising star nomination. He was leading the AFL tackle count at one stage I remember.

Hi Dazzler - are you still having a kick somewhere ?

I love Jordie's tenacity but he'll never make the grade as a decent mid. It's not his disposal that's his biggest probelm, it's his ball-handling. Particulary in the heavy traffic areas he plays in. All too often he'll get his hands on the ball but won't have control of it. In the split second it takes him to get control of the footy, the option to give off has passed & Jordie is being tackled. He is Simon Godfrey Mk 2. There was a commonly held belief that Godders' greatest failing was his kicking. It wasn't, it was his hands. Again, that second taken to control the ball in his hands put him under pressure.

Junior McDonald was kinda the opposite. He was a crap kick but he had clean hands which gave him the ability to extract the pill from traffic & move it on

How come people say that Neeld is the reason why our midfielders have gone bad? Didn't Neeld coach the Collingwood midfield?

The whole premise of Sellar being 25 and although having only 10 games it is equal to 70 sucks because he runs like Cliff Young and catches like Ray Charles .

Recruit 5-6 mids in the off season, including 3 current AFL 1sts players.

Daisy Thomas, Dylan Shiel, Dion Prestia are all key targets