And if Wilson calls him out on it regarding the stupidity of the situation, London to a brick that is the AFL's view.

I have gone from hating Caro to loving her

she absolutely smashed Hird and Essendon through this saga, and shes not close to being done yet

and her colleagues Baker and McKenzie will win a Wakeley award

And if Wilson calls him out on it regarding the stupidity of the situation, London to a brick that is the AFL's view.

And rightly so in this instance because, unlike the so-called tanking investigation where Wilson accepted the evidence of one set of witnesses to what happened within the vault meeting (Flack, Prendergast and one other all not involved in match day decisions) and entirely dismissed the evidence of others including Dean Bailey, in the Essendon case Wilson has had the benefit of a few fine journalists whose excellent research was available to assist her (in addition to what appear to have been leaks from the AFL). The work of Richard Baker and Nick McKenzie of the Age (mentioned in the above post by hogan's heroes) cannot be overlooked in the case of the material uncovered during this saga.

I have gone from hating Caro to loving her

It's because you are now looking at what she's saying rather than seeing her attacking your club. She was right about the tanking saga and she's right here.

WJ continues to excuse our club for its questionable actions and extends that generosity to Schwab, McLardy and Connolly.

No wonder we had such terrible management and performance. If we'd demanded higher standards right from the beginning we'd be much better off now.

It's a lesson we should accept and not one we should continue to deny.

It's because you are now looking at what she's saying rather than seeing her attacking your club. She was right about the tanking saga and she's right here.

Exactly right.

Looking at how the Essendon supporters have behaved towards her I feel like a lot of us were like that in the tanking saga.

I feel embarrassed by that.

Imagine Caro didnt exist and all we got during this saga was articles by Mark Robinson, R0ohan Connolly, Gerard Whateley, Jon Ralph etc etc...

Shudder.......

I am absolutely convinced that Mark Robinson has started 10,000 sentences, but never finished one.

It's because you are now looking at what she's saying rather than seeing her attacking your club. She was right about the tanking saga and she's right here.

WJ continues to excuse our club for its questionable actions and extends that generosity to Schwab, McLardy and Connolly.

No wonder we had such terrible management and performance. If we'd demanded higher standards right from the beginning we'd be much better off now.

It's a lesson we should accept and not one we should continue to deny.

Bob,

I don't know why you continue to misrepresent my position which is that the Stynes/McLardy administration did some very good things along with some bad which included a failure to improve the club's core business which is to produce a successful football team. I'm also on record as saying that to some extent this was due to what it inherited from previous administrations which left a horrendous debt of $5m and a poorly run football department.

You might translate that into excusing our club for questionable actions but if it's questionable to do what the AFL CEO explicitly approves of then you're quite right but if you think I'm extending generosity to anyone you should consider what you did recently with the Gardner administration in a recent post when you glossed over the fact that it bled several millions in less than a year before it was replaced.

Other than that, perhaps you and indeed all of us would be best off by taking your own advice which is to "move on".

Her righteousness is in the people she gets fired. It isn't in the facts that she gets right.

She runs roughshod over the truth and that is what I decry, have bemoaned, and will criticise as it happens more and more often in a journalistic landscape that prides itself on being first and flagrant rather than right and wholly truthful.

I disagree with her articles during both the tanking and danking sagas.

her facts are usually correct yes.

it is her vitriol that comes through, her adjectives, that I disagree with. that and the fact that she does like a personal attack after she has presented a fact.

Her righteousness is in the people she gets fired. It isn't in the facts that she gets right.

Well the truth is the people who got fired do so because of their actions and incompetence. Your excuse is a cop out.

Her righteousness is in the people she gets fired. It isn't in the facts that she gets right.

She runs roughshod over the truth and that is what I decry, have bemoaned, and will criticise as it happens more and more often in a journalistic landscape that prides itself on being first and flagrant rather than right and wholly truthful.

You really do overestimate her impact. She didn't get anyone fired.

To think othewise is silly.

I disagree with her articles during both the tanking and danking sagas.

her facts are usually correct yes.

it is her vitriol that comes through, her adjectives, that I disagree with. that and the fact that she does like a personal attack after she has presented a fact.

In the danking saga she has been clear and unambiguous in calling for those responsible to stand aside. She has been rightly critical of Hird, Little and others to parade and market their innocence of neglect of governance and player welfare. She has been hard on them and rightly so. At no time was she personal at all in those assessments.

The same applies to the incompetence at MFC over the tanking and Dr Bates issue. She rightly called it during that process. But its unbelievable some have demonised (pun) and played the targets of her articles as victims. Hell, even Julian Burnside would squirm at that suggestion...then maybe not.

Exactly right.

Looking at how the Essendon supporters have behaved towards her I feel like a lot of us were like that in the tanking saga.

I feel embarrassed by that.

Imagine Caro didnt exist and all we got during this saga was articles by Mark Robinson, R0ohan Connolly, Gerard Whateley, Jon Ralph etc etc...

Shudder.......

Actually prior to this saga with messendon, I rated Whateley because he provided a balanced view. Now he has shown himself to pander to the Robinson style of journalism. Pretty disappointed with Whateley who also seemed to get on the blame bus for everybody but messendon. As for Caro, I think she gets too personal but having said that, she went after Hird because of his counter attack blaming anyone else other than himself.

As for Connolly and Robinson, they are part of an Essendon click and too close to them to be totally objective. Along with Tim Watson, the media has been stacked with bummer sympathisers throughout this whole stinking mess.

You're kidding right?

Hird was primarily responsible for the implementation of a supplements program that at best he failed to supervise and manage appropriately and at worst was an illegal drug program. Either way he's put the careers and health of his players at risk. The program was so poorly managed that the Club and club doctor can't even tell you which players took what supplements.

Hird is being portrayed as a hero by Burnside because he accepted a 12 months suspension and EFC have been stupid enough to extend his coaching tenure by 2 years the day he was found guilty.

Wilson calls him out on it and highlights the stupidity of the situation. She's not being some sort of moral arbiter, she's expressing the concerns of the majority of clear thinking people. Think about it. You've an employee who has disgraced your club and threatened the health of your players, cost you $2 million and draft picks and admits his involvement in it and you extend his contract the day he's found guilty.

Far from being a moral arbiter Wilson has been mild in her critique. If it was anyone but Hird you'd never see them in football again.

Agree.

As I said in another thread, Essendon and its officials were disgusting during the supplement scheme and despicable since.

I don't know why you continue to misrepresent my position

I don't agree that Schwab did many good things and when you had an opportunity to debate the issue your only offering was the repayment of debt and then closed the thread. I "glossed over" Gardner's $5m debt by stating "Gardner's Board inherited a $5 million debt, repaid much of it without relying on members only to see it re-establish itself in his last year." What did you want me to say? And how do you know what debt existed when McLardy/Schwab left, the results aren't in yet.

Also Gardner didn't create the debt he just didn't eradicate it, something you've not recognized that I've seen. The $5m debt that existed at the end of the financial year in which Gardner left included such things as the payment to Paul McNamee which had nothing to do with Gardner. Given that Schwab in effect replaced McNamee you can hardly argue it was a good move.

Anyway I'm glad you've moved on from the silly "faceless men" accusation and recognize the core failures of blokes you backed.

As for the "poorly run football department" I'd kill for one so badly run that it reached three finals series. Gardner oversaw more final series than we've won games this year! Not only that he did it on a shoestring compared with Schwab and McLardy.

I don't agree that Schwab did many good things and when you had an opportunity to debate the issue your only offering was the repayment of debt and then closed the thread. I "glossed over" Gardner's $5m debt by stating "Gardner's Board inherited a $5 million debt, repaid much of it without relying on members only to see it re-establish itself in his last year." What did you want me to say? And how do you know what debt existed when McLardy/Schwab left, the results aren't in yet.

Also Gardner didn't create the debt he just didn't eradicate it, something you've not recognized that I've seen. The $5m debt that existed at the end of the financial year in which Gardner left included such things as the payment to Paul McNamee which had nothing to do with Gardner. Given that Schwab in effect replaced McNamee you can hardly argue it was a good move.

Anyway I'm glad you've moved on from the silly "faceless men" accusation and recognize the core failures of blokes you backed.

As for the "poorly run football department" I'd kill for one so badly run that it reached three finals series. Gardner oversaw more final series than we've won games this year! Not only that he did it on a shoestring compared with Schwab and McLardy.

You can keep going but I didn't close that thread.

It was Andy (Demonland) that closed it and quite rightly.

I never was into the "faceless men" thing - that was a description attributed to me by others. I still very much believe in the truth of the claim made to me by a poster on 30 October 2012 that a disgruntled former employee caused the enquiry to proceed when it would otherwise have died and that he was encouraged by others to do so. I have no doubt that history has proven that claim correct because unless you had inside information about what the AFL knew (and indeed Wilson knew) on that day it would have been nigh on impossible to guess the identity of the person who told the vault story to the tanking enquiry.

As for that poorly run football department, it certainly did make three finals series but by 2005/6 the seeds of poor recruiting, list management, player development etc. had already been sown and we've paid the price for bad decision making in that area ever since (and I'm not excusing what went on under Bailey or Neeld). The majority of our list is made up of players recruited in the past decade - the administrations of Gardner, Stynes and McLardy all bear responsibility for what we have now.

"Also Gardner didn't create the debt he just didn't eradicate it, something you've not recognized that I've seen. The $5m debt that existed at the end of the financial year in which Gardner left included such things as the payment to Paul McNamee which had nothing to do with Gardner. Given that Schwab in effect replaced McNamee you can hardly argue it was a good move."

That's a complete cop out if you then turn around and blame the Stynes/McLardy/Schwab admin for presiding over a loss this year. At least they eradicated the debt or most of it (depending on what this year's figures reveal).

Anyway, when are you going to take your own advice and "move on".

Well the truth is the people who got fired do so because of their actions and incompetence. Your excuse is a cop out.

You really do overestimate her impact. She didn't get anyone fired.

To think othewise is silly.

...the people she would like to see fired...

Does that clear that up? Or would you like to keep missing the point I was making.

It's not that hard to call out Hird as being an egotistical, stubborn fool.

What I maintain is wrong with Caro is that she writes entirely negative, often hyperbolic material, appearing to be some sort of righteousness fighter.

With Melbourne, she continually bleated about people needing to stand down or be sacked or be removed, or how that would happen. In some instances, it didn't. With Essendon she did the same, and in most cases she was right. That doesn't mean her journalism was good.

It's not that hard to call out Hird as being an egotistical, stubborn fool.

What I maintain is wrong with Caro is that she writes entirely negative, often hyperbolic material, appearing to be some sort of righteousness fighter.

With Melbourne, she continually bleated about people needing to stand down or be sacked or be removed, or how that would happen. In some instances, it didn't. With Essendon she did the same, and in most cases she was right. That doesn't mean her journalism was good.

And she'll prattle on about how Dustin Martin is up to no good and then when it suits she'll write a piece about how well Richmond have done managing him and that he should accept whatever contract they offer.

It would be much better if she just reported and let us use our brain to determine the opinions. Every one of her pieces in an opinion piece these days.

And she'll prattle on about how Dustin Martin is up to no good and then when it suits she'll write a piece about how well Richmond have done managing him and that he should accept whatever contract they offer.

It would be much better if she just reported and let us use our brain to determine the opinions. Every one of her pieces in an opinion piece these days.

I think that's the crux of the matter. A journalist supposedly reporting news and, at the same time, colouring the story with his or her own views to further a particular agenda and then attempting to pass it all off as objective reporting.

My major objection with Caro is that when she is taken up on her articles, she regularly denies saying what she has previously said, and manipulates it as if she was saying something else entirely. To me, you can't do that and be righteous at the same time... well you can, but then you're a duplicitous hypocrite.

I love the Melbourne Football Club, but by Christ I hate a lot of the people involved and the shyte, look at me politics, that is played out there.

I hate the intriguers' and the muckrakers and behind the scenes men; the ones who will criticise but not put their nuts on the line.

Go away and peddle your stories elsewhere if you aren't prepared to put your name up.

Ok which one of you [censored] her off?

I think that's the crux of the matter. A journalist supposedly reporting news and, at the same time, colouring the story with his or her own views to further a particular agenda and then attempting to pass it all off as objective reporting.

Thats why she's called a journalist!

I love the Melbourne Football Club, but by Christ I hate a lot of the people involved and the shyte, look at me politics, that is played out there.

I hate the intriguers' and the muckrakers and behind the scenes men; the ones who will criticise but not put their nuts on the line.

Go away and peddle your stories elsewhere if you aren't prepared to put your name up.

Thats why the AFL hired PJ, there sick of it to, Melbournes easier to rebuild than GWS because we have a supporter base and the AFL know that, the days of the boys club are finally gone after 5 decades.