Who the hell is responsible?

[Carrot Top 947]

Still blaming everything but the players hey? The recent clean-out doesn't prove the list wasn't up to it? Why are you always ranting about administration and coaches, are you a disgruntled ex-player or just some kind of conspiracy nut? Or just a plain old trolling [censored]?

A little from column 'A' and a hell of a lot from column 'B'.

Just a general comment but at what point during the 27 month long trade week that we just suffered did any of the 17 other clubs beat our door down with offers for these players that we have supposedly just thrown away? Morton? Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if we had to slip a $50 to one of the WCE guys to take him. Gys? A couple of clubs looked and turned up their noses before North decided he might be a tad better than #49. Martin? Let's just say that if he wasn't tall we'd be paying him to play at Casey next year.

These guys couldn't get a game in one of the worst sides I've seen us field, and people think we screwed up by chopping them. I reckon we got 'overs'. Some of the posters here might rate the guys we traded but the rest of the football world certainly didn't.

[bing181 9,193]

Like many that don't post

If they don't post, how do you know what they like?You speak only for yourself.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

What's the definition of "good culture" for you Ron?

In terms of the player group and football department, check out the Swans, Geelong or the club at which Mark Neeld was previously the midfield coach.

The players Neeld's exited this year would've been exited a lot earlier at these clubs. In fact, many of them wouldn't have been selected in the first place.

Good clubs have a hard edged discipline about them. Until Neeld came along, ours did not.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

a) no they haven't, they've done what many (most?) here have been asking for for a while

B) question away, but then don't complain when you don't like the answers

Gysberts and Martin - not a problem. A cheap way of delisting contracted players who didn't have a future under Neeld.

I'm personally disappointed about Gysberts. I actually don't think the club wanted to exit him this year, but we needed to get the Pedersen deal done, and, quite frankly, we didn't have much else to offer them given that pick 49 appeared not to be enough.

If we get Ben Jacobs in the PSD, that should sweeten this trade, given that North were apparently red hot into Jacobs.

As I understand it, all we need to do is match North's offer, and hope that GWS and GC pass on him, which I expect would be likely. This would also make up a bit for not landing Farren Ray IMO.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

We will have Watts pick 1, Trengove Pick 2, Viney 3-8, Wines Pick 4, Clark Pick 9, Frawley Pick 12, Jones Pick 12, Grimes Pick 14, Blease Pick 17, Tapscott 18 and Strauss Pick 19 all playing in our 22 next year. Thats half our team as top 20 picks under 25 years old! The idea we needed to stock up on 6 kids is laughable! What that list of players doesn't have is a long history of success, premierships or Grand Final performances, being part of a club that is consistantly in the top 8 or a large number of games experience. This is why we need Byrnes, Dawes and Rodan.

You can add James Sellar to that list. He was pick 14 and is under 25 years old.

[nutbean 8,838]

I wish people would stop quoting Morton as pick 4 and Gysberts as a pick 11. I have no problem in referencing them as our mistakes but for anyone to say "we got rid of a pick 4 for pick 88 and we got shafted" refuses to acknowledge that the number that players are drafted at is just a reflection of the thinking of the recruiting staff at the time of the drafting and like good or bad investments, the real value of a player constantly changes as the players form and health fluctuates. Bate was worth a 2nd round pick last year at trading time last year and zero now.

A few have mentioned getting rid of Jnr and others but taking in Rodan and Byrnes. The older players we let go, junior included, had no X factor at all. Rodan may turn out to be a big bust, but we got him for nothing (pick 88) and if fit and healthy can bring something to the table that we are missing - albeit for possibly only a season or two. The two are nothing more than speculative picks but they are speculative picks with some purpose.

Anyone who says that we were shafted on the Morton deal needs to look at what he has produced over his career.If he were to play the sort of football he has played to date in the TAC now he would not get drafted at all - that is his current worth. That he was originally a pick 4 is ancient history.

Edited October 28, 2012 by nutbean

[dee_star 63]

I take a bit of a different tact that those who want to square the blame with Prendegast - with as many high draft as we had, and all of which have shown some good signs at different times (except Cook, who as a KF didn't have enough time), I don't think the selections were all that bad. Every club can make the argument that they could have picked better - e.g. everyone talks about Hawthorn's Roughead/Franklin/Lewis drafting but not about Dowler and Mitch Thorp (where they could have had Joel Selwood, or more to the point Nathan Brown from the Pies or Frawley given their key defensive problems in recent years).

We saw at the start of Neeld's time all the announcements about new staff members - we put on three development coaches and brought in Neil Craig - resources that we never had when we'd drafted all these kids and were bringing them through. To tie it into what's happened in the last few weeks, I just wonder whether or not having had more resources around our young guys earlier, or giving some of them another year or two with decent support around them would have resulted in a few becoming solid players (Gysberts, Cook and Martin are the three in particular).

I'm a bit with what Ned said earlier - I like the Dawes deal as key forwards are hard to find, the Hogan deal we gave up an enormous amount but hopefully it's worth it, Viney is a free kick at 27 so that's great, and I was happy to see Morton go, but the final 24 hours of Rodan and Pederson and letting Martin and Gysberts go were pretty disappointing.

At the end of the day these discussions about responsibility, whether it's Recruiting, Coaching or Development come back to two people - the head of the Footy department and the CEO - for me that means Connolly and Schwab have an enormous amount to answer for. And considering one was sacked last year then reinstated and the other was shifted sideways suggests that the Board don't have a lot of faith in them either.

[frankie_d 1,471]

At the end of the day these discussions about responsibility, whether it's Recruiting, Coaching or Development come back to two people - the head of the Footy department and the CEO - for me that means Connolly and Schwab have an enormous amount to answer for. And considering one was sacked last year then reinstated and the other was shifted sideways suggests that the Board don't have a lot of faith in them either.

This.

Looking over the shoulder has it's problems, but "whiteboard wednesday" and "the red and blue print" and "we know the way to the top is through the draft" don't make for pleasant viewing.

In terms of public face, CS seems to have pulled his head in. I still worry about our governance, though. If it weren't for 186, then would we have Neeld/Craig? The board, in my view, have been asleep at the wheel for far too long.

[sue 9,096]

Not surprised at this vituperative abuse. Same posters who screamed at me that Tom Scully was such a great guy, would die for this club, was apple of his dads eye etc; Till the very day he crawled away they belched and spewed forth. How come I never meet these kind at the games? They must be lurking in some crack in the concrete for all I know.

If you are negative all the time, you will be right some of the time. Whoopee.

[H_T 3,043]

I take a bit of a different tact that those who want to square the blame with Prendegast - with as many high draft as we had, and all of which have shown some good signs at different times (except Cook, who as a KF didn't have enough time), I don't think the selections were all that bad.

Who else is to blame for the selections of Cook, Gysberts? If they weren't all that bad in selection, they'd still be on the list. Prendergast was moved on because of such decisions and was held accountable. That was his job. Not CS's.

[John Crow Batty 8,861]

At the end of the day these discussions about responsibility, whether it's Recruiting, Coaching or Development come back to two people - the head of the Footy department and the CEO - for me that means Connolly and Schwab have an enormous amount to answer for. And considering one was sacked last year then reinstated and the other was shifted sideways suggests that the Board don't have a lot of faith in them either.

These guys were responsible for disastrous polices and strategies that in any reputable organisation private or government should have seen them sacked and disgraced. Having cultural revolutions to mask serious mistakes will only lead to even more disasters. The clean out should have started at the top and not the bottom. We remain damned until these necessary changes are made.

Edited October 28, 2012 by america de cali

[John Crow Batty 8,861]

Who else is to blame for the selections of Cook, Gysberts? If they weren't all that bad in selection, they'd still be on the list. Prendergast was moved on because of such decisions and was held accountable. That was his job. Not CS's.

Hmmm, are you sure about that.

[H_T 3,043]

Hmmm, are you sure about that.

You saying CS selected the likes of Gysberts & Cook are you? If you are, you're wrong again.

[Biffen 12,940]

These guys were responsible for disastrous polices and strategies that that in any reputable organisation private or government would have seen them sacked and disgraced. Having cultural revolutions to mask serious mistakes will only lead to even more disasters. The clean out should have started at the top and not the bottom. We remain damned until these necessary changes are made.

Did Scwhab play for us on 186?

Did McLardy?

Things have changed at MFC.

We are not blaming the Board anymore for our onfield performances .

That is the sort of thing that got us Paul McNamee.

If we play bad it's because the players failed us all.

They get big dollars to be fit and ready for an afl existence.

Every week they will be scrutinised.

Never mind the admin.

If the players hate the admin they can only have their voice heard by winning-not pathetic attempts at Coups or constant failure.

[John Crow Batty 8,861]

You saying CS selected the likes of Gysberts & Cook are you? If you are, you're wrong again.

Lets just say he was the spiritual guidance for such selections.

[Choko 493]

These guys were responsible for disastrous polices and strategies that in any reputable organisation private or government should have seen them sacked and disgraced. Having cultural revolutions to mask serious mistakes will only lead to even more disasters. The clean out should have started at the top and not the bottom. We remain damned until these necessary changes are made.

Your quotes paint you as an absolute simpleton.

In any other business, you don't have 18 uneven clubs competing for one thing, with an unequal base. In a business environment, you have a market. Yes, you have competition, but you don't have to be the "one". You also have fairly unfettered power to make decisions in private business.

A football club is totally different. There's a salary cap, equalisation policies and far less control over the only thing that matters to most - 2 hours per week for 22 weeks - than is usual in business.

You would have to be blind not to see some of the failures of our leadership. But you would have to be blind and dumb not to see some of the enormous successes of our corporate leadership in the past 5 - 7 years.

[H_T 3,043]

Lets just say he was the spiritual guidance for such selections.

So his spiritual guidance helped overlook other possible draftees in selection? Utter BS from you cali.

[John Crow Batty 8,861]

Your quotes paint you as an absolute simpleton.

In any other business, you don't have 18 uneven clubs competing for one thing, with an unequal base. In a business environment, you have a market. Yes, you have competition, but you don't have to be the "one". You also have fairly unfettered power to make decisions in private business.

A football club is totally different. There's a salary cap, equalisation policies and far less control over the only thing that matters to most - 2 hours per week for 22 weeks - than is usual in business.

You would have to be blind not to see some of the failures of our leadership. But you would have to be blind and dumb not to see some of the enormous successes of our corporate leadership in the past 5 - 7 years.

Does this club survive on the premise of balancing the books or playing winning football as No 1 priority? Just about every successful business will take on debt in order to grow. For us to grow we have be playing good footy and then the financial rewards will come too. Not charity that we have become dependant upon.

[dee_star 63]

Who else is to blame for the selections of Cook, Gysberts? If they weren't all that bad in selection, they'd still be on the list. Prendergast was moved on because of such decisions and was held accountable. That was his job. Not CS's.

My argument on those two specifically is that Gysberts has shown a bit and that Cook hasn't had time to shown anything - and in any case the broader question is whether or not our young players who we drafted as part of a clear club direction to rebuild through the draft have had the appropriate amount of support around them. When the Collingwood, Hawthorn and Geelong's of the world have had 3-4 full time development coaches and we've had one until 2012 I just wonder if we've let some of these guys go at bargain basement prices (or for free in Cook's case) a little too soon. Time will tell on whether or not Gysberts, Martin, Cook and co become solid players at their new clubs.

CS and CC are the ones ultimately responsible for the hiring and firing in the footy club - if Prendegast wasn't the right man for the job, if Bailey wasn't, if the welfare guys weren't, if the fitness staff weren't, then how many people have to go before the ones making the hiring and firing decisions have to come under some scrutiny? And again, these two were either fired (CS) or moved sideways (CC) in 2011, so that surely suggests that even our own board has little faith in either.

[daisycutter 29,604]

So his spiritual guidance helped overlook other possible draftees in selection? Utter BS from you cali.

So we must be in need of a new spiritual advisor LOL

I hear there are a lot of OOC priests. We should act quick before all the 'good' ones are contracted?

[Arrow 1,257]

It's funny I reckon if it was Mick Malthouses cutting these players, everyone would be commenting how ballsy he is for cutting the dead wood.

Neeld's doing the right thing... The results will come.

[rpfc 28,262]

CS and CC are the ones ultimately responsible for the hiring and firing in the footy club - if Prendegast wasn't the right man for the job, if Bailey wasn't, if the welfare guys weren't, if the fitness staff weren't, then how many people have to go before the ones making the hiring and firing decisions have to come under some scrutiny? And again, these two were either fired (CS) or moved sideways (CC) in 2011, so that surely suggests that even our own board has little faith in either.

Save for the fact that CS was given a 3 year deal recently...

I posted after 186 that I can envision the club moving past CS as there had been issues with him and the FD reading from the same script.

Then we went through 2012 and every thing that went wrong was traced back to Cameron Schwab by those with a visible and visceral agenda.

I said at the time that those with the agenda - manifesting itself on here with a few choice posters and with your regular drum beaters at the Hun, Age, and Aus - would simply entrench those they wish to remove when they blame them for everything that has gone wrong and will go wrong.

Buried in that agenda is the truth that Schwab has not had the desired effect on the strategic direction and current ability of our playing list.

But that is overwhelmed by those that would blame him for the inability of Prendergast to do his job well, for Harrington to not make water out of wine, and for Neeld's inability to perform miracles. And when they choose to simply ignore or 'wave away' the off-field achievements the entrenchment is complete.

Criticise fairly and explain at length and don't bloviate, exaggerate, or be fanatical.

That's how you influence decisions.

Either that or challenge the board...

Edited October 29, 2012 by rpfc

[dee_star 63]

Buried in that agenda is the truth that Schwab has not had the desired effect on the strategic direction and current ability of our playing list.

But that is overwhelmed by those that would blame him for the inability of Prendergast to do his job well, for Harrington to not make water out of wine, and for Neeld's inability to perform miracles. And when they choose to simply ignore or 'wave away' the off-field achievements the entrenchment is complete.

The issue with the "everyone's fault but CS" line is that he was sacked (or "not renewed") the day before the Geelong game, before the dismissal of Bailey, and much longer before the dismissal of Prendegast, the hiring of Neeld, the greater responsibility of Harrington and Viney in our Recruiting and List Management etc. Clearly on the Friday before the Geelong game the Board had resolved that he had had ample opportunity to "influence the strategic direction" on and off the field, and that his time was up. I'm sure the Board and everyone would accept that he'd done a number of good things for the footy club, but they obviously felt he wasn't the right man to be CEO of the club moving forward.

So the same question still applies - how many staff from that period have to be let go - Coaching, Recruiting, Fitness - before responsibility falls onto the two people that were in charge of hiring and firing at that time? And from their decision to remove CS BEFORE all these changes and to later move CC sideways and push Mahoney up, the Board obviously felt that the responsibility fell at his and CC's feet.

Edited October 29, 2012 by dee_star

[Demon SeaMan 108]

I don't me self kicking the dirt if Morton, Gysberts, Martin or Pettard have a good game at another club. It'll be rare and all the best to that. Whilst I agree with the sentiments with earlier comments about Stefan Martin having a heart like a horse (good metaphor this time of yr) I believe that was more about having certain players of the same size, ilk and otherwise. Cheer up ol chaps and giddy up off your cigar lounges for Rd 1 some of you it will be an interesting ride

[Bossdog 2,002]

My argument on those two specifically is that Gysberts has shown a bit and that Cook hasn't had time to shown anything - and in any case the broader question is whether or not our young players who we drafted as part of a clear club direction to rebuild through the draft have had the appropriate amount of support around them. When the Collingwood, Hawthorn and Geelong's of the world have had 3-4 full time development coaches and we've had one until 2012 I just wonder if we've let some of these guys go at bargain basement prices (or for free in Cook's case) a little too soon. Time will tell on whether or not Gysberts, Martin, Cook and co become solid players at their new clubs.

CS and CC are the ones ultimately responsible for the hiring and firing in the footy club - if Prendegast wasn't the right man for the job, if Bailey wasn't, if the welfare guys weren't, if the fitness staff weren't, then how many people have to go before the ones making the hiring and firing decisions have to come under some scrutiny? And again, these two were either fired (CS) or moved sideways (CC) in 2011, so that surely suggests that even our own board has little faith in either.

How does a club get out of a $5 million debt.....Be able for the first time to get a FD that is on a par with the top sides......Without the solid working CEO and a board that can take the whole club forward......Yes Jim was the starter but without the smarts of the rest it would have faulted.......Just for the record.....Carlton has a 10 mil debt.......Richmond.....3 mil.......Coll......$4 mil

and don't get me started on the Lions....Port......West Coast......and the newbies........All journeys start at the begining....I back the board and the CEO to the hilt.......I have not seen the footy club in a better position for 20 years....