Neeld the Proactive, OR, Why this (re)build isn't a continuation of Bailey's

[Dee_Flower 53]

A one-year member...

All our ills won't be changed if/when we move on Royal.

Let's say we draft Jack Viney and two other potentially high quality mids. It's just potential because to date they've been playing kids their age and now they're in the big league. Do you want them tutored in the art of midfield play at the highest level by Brian Royal?

[old dee 23,256]

This is an excellent post and I'm a Neeld fan, but many, many old time followers are reaching saturation point.....

Spot on jr Like bangkok demon I was lucky enough to be there in 64.

I now have a simple approach after decades of new brooms at the MFC.

I believe it when I see it.

I still go to most home games but I do not expect to win, that way when they actually happen I have a good time and all the others are then bareable.

God only knows why I still keep on keeping on.

Probably to stupid to know when I am done.

I would be joyed beyond belief to have a team that wins more games than it loses.

Carn the Dees

[Range Rover 1,935]

Let's say we draft Jack Viney and two other potentially high quality mids. It's just potential because to date they've been playing kids their age and now they're in the big league. Do you want them tutored in the art of midfield play at the highest level by Brian Royal?

I have to say I personally don't. Have heard him on radio speak a few times and found him really underwhelming.

I hope he goes and Neeld brings in someone exceedingly sharp of mind and someone who has recently played in premiership winning mid-fields.

Nigel Lappin, Cameron Ling ... I'd like to see us bring in one of these types.

[beelzebub 22,753]

I have to say I personally don't. Have heard him on radio speak a few times and found him really underwhelming.

I hope he goes and Neeld brings in someone exceedingly sharp of mind and someone who has recently played in premiership winning mid-fields.

Nigel Lappin, Cameron Ling ... I'd like to see us bring in one of these types.

Of all people ( coaches) that stayed , I was most suprised that Choco was it.

I just dont get very enthused or confident by his results.. I can only think Neeld has his reasons and for now will just watch and hope.

Its very unusual in this day and age that there are no FD outs and in come seasons end. Im thinking he might be the one.

time will tell....as always

[Ouch! 2,138]

Of all people ( coaches) that stayed , I was most suprised that Choco was it.

I just dont get very enthused or confident by his results.. I can only think Neeld has his reasons and for now will just watch and hope.

Its very unusual in this day and age that there are no FD outs and in come seasons end. Im thinking he might be the one.

time will tell....as always

He had another year on his contract didn't he? I suspected that the club paid highly for a new group of coaches, but perhaps the board didn't want to have to pay out a full year of his contract given the rest of the spending that they had done assembling the rest of the football department. (Only speculating here though)

Edit (when I say paid highly,.... more so for the number of coaches rather than them getting large salaries)

Edited July 23, 2012 by Oucher

[The Reverend 1,718]

Neelds coaching record is woeful, two wins from 17 starts, bad as it gets, anybody who accepts that, accepts defeat far to readily.

I hope there are some checkpoints and markers in his contract, the club will not go on much longer like this, we will be back in the can financially, membership buyers and sponsors will abandon ship in droves.

Don't know one real person who will accept another four years of this, with a remote promise of better fortune sometime down the track.,

Suit yourselves about Neeldy,Craig and Misson, but I reckon nobody, not even Gary, forsaw this wreckage.

Let's not forget that Dean Bailey won three games in his first year and a total of 7 games in his first two years. I'd be backing Neeld to be ahead of Bailey's record at the end of this year and well ahead at the end of next year. Bailey had a four year win record of 26.5%. Nothing to get excited about. I hope you're not holding up Bailey as an example of a winning coach. Neeld has a three year contract. His job is to build long term success. It aint gonna happen in one year. Is that so hard to understand?

[beelzebub 22,753]

its an interesting view there Crawf and its the sensible one for mine.

Baileys first ouple of years were in all effect supposed to be terrible, result wise, becuase we were t.................... trying to list manage

It was his subsequent ones where we realised there werent as many strings to the bow as we thought.

No one in their right mind ( but that might exlcude some here ) can really think that Neelds first season could result in anything other than knowledge and a good cleanout from that understanding.I.e he aint going to win a lot of games and hey, guess what he hasnt. Next season probably wont light up terribly many Christmas trees either but it will have built upon this years lancing and purge come foundation establishment and start to show dividends and cohesion

[beelzebub 22,753]

He had another year on his contract didn't he? I suspected that the club paid highly for a new group of coaches, but perhaps the board didn't want to have to pay out a full year of his contract given the rest of the spending that they had done assembling the rest of the football department. (Only speculating here though)

Edit (when I say paid highly,.... more so for the number of coaches rather than them getting large salaries)

very likely the case.. I was just suprised, thas all. Others were found non invasive jobs etc. I thought maybe Choco could also. Then again possibly the clever brains trust figured we didnt have terribly much in the grunt squad anyways so not a lot of harm would be done whilst the 'evaluations took place. 2013 being a different kettle of fish.....and /or chocolates

[Harrisonrules 273]

I'm not a frequent poster by any means on the forum, but I do read it quite often, especially after matches. There's a common lament that's thrown around quite a bit each week; that we've lived through x years of rebuild, and we shouldn't be in this position now, but we should be playing (imagine!) finals footy. I don't disagree with the latter part of the statement, but I'm not sure I completely agree with the first part. I'm an unashamed supporter of Neeld (we'll get to that), and I'm generally optimistic about where we're heading, because I don't believe that this is a rebuilding period; instead, we're building. In other words, Neeld's (re)build is emphatically not a continuation of Bailey's, but is a completely different beast, and an ambitious one at that. Let me explain.

The team under Bailey seemed to be constantly in a rebuild phase: it became almost an axiom of the team. I'm not sure whether Bailey was a bad coach, but he certainly wasn't an ambitious one. By that, I mean that he seemed to be rebuilding, while waiting (patiently!) for a finals opportunity to conveniently present itself. He had an aim, but no objective, the latter being a quantifiable outcome (like "improve kicking efficiency," "improve ratio of tackles to opposition possessions per game", etc.), and the former being the end-goal (which doesn't at all have to be realistic). The club under Bailey was reactionary, conservative; the only really great performances were when the game was on their terms, or when they were criticised of being mediocre (see for example the "bruise-free footy" win over Essendon). They never really attacked games, and I think this was the fault of the insidious "we'll get there one day (but we're not good enough today!)" mentality created by calling it a rebuild. We always had the talent, but never the desire.

Neeld inherited a directionless team. A team that was waiting around to get into the finals, without fighting for it. A rebuild requires that there are some salvagable parts with which to work with. (Renevations à la Buckley's Collingwood are even easier! Just replace a coat of paint, and you're done! ). Neeld said pretty early on, and he has said at almost every opportunity since, that he is working towards something new. A new brand of football, a new intensity at the ball, all overseen by a new coaching staff. Neeld has an ambition, and he said it as soon as he was made coach: to make us the hardest team to play against in the league. I don't think I've heard him say anything about winning a flag, or playing in the finals (I could have missed something, of course). Every team wants to win the flag. Bailey wanted to win the flag. But you can't win the flag by simply saying that you're going to win the flag. Being a "good" team isn't particularly specific or helpful for any real course of action: many different teams are good at different things; even two "good" teams (e.g. Collingwood and Hawthorn) are "good" in different ways. Being a tough team to play against, on the other hand, has defined parameters, and a defined path to achieve it (improve contested possessions, restrict ball movement, etc.).

Neeld is building from scratch, a new team with a new mentality. Neeld's Demons will be, in the future, a proactive team, have no doubt. We have had a shocking year. I'm not that naive. We've won less games than under Bailey. There's no denying that. But there have been few games where I've been disgusted by how the team looks like it didn't show up, whereas that was most of the time with Bailey. Three quarters of a season and a preseason can't erase completely that mentality of rebuilding. But it's going.

It takes a hell of a lot longer to build a house from scratch than to rebuild one. Bailey's house was hideous sometimes, pretty others, but was always shaky, and there is no way it could have gone any higher, because the foundations (which I think are the ambition of the archetect) were always faulty. Neeld is laying new foundations. They don't look like much now, but the house built on them will be a hell of a lot prettier than Bailey's.

Edit: spelling(s)!

Yes a thoughtful thread, but just a variation on a theme. What you haven't done is assess if that foundation is worth while. To conclude he is better than Bailey is meaningless. One has got to be better than Hird, Clarkson, The Scotts, Worsfold etc. I cann not find any evidence for his approach being effective in any shape or form. The worst percentage in Melbourne history says an aweful lot about both defense and attack.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Neeld is getting players to play a style that simply doesn't suit them. Are the players at fault because they won't accept change? Should they accept change and do something about it? Is Neeld trying to turn some players in to something that they are not? Should we sack certain players because of this? A lot of questions taht will be answered between September and November this year, and not a moment before it.

I had an idea that perhaps Neeld should be given free rein at the end of the year, sack 10-15 players that aren't willing to play his style, draft kids and trade in players that are willing, then give him the next 3 years to show improvement. At the end of the 3 years, Neeld will be forever known as the man that helped save the Melbourne Football Club, or will be the last coach of this club as we know it.

Am I being melodramtic? I don't think I am. We will lose members at the end of this year, it's as simple as that. A team that appears to have gone so far backward in terms of their skill level is going to struggle in today's AFL. We obviously need to improve in so many aspects of our game that I can't find anything to suggest that we will be any better next year. I know we will get good kids at the draft this year, but we are kidding ourselves if we think they will come in in their first year and turn this thing around.

This Club, our Club, MY Club, is in a very poor state. Another 3 years of this and something will have to give. I sincerely hope we improve for the life of this Club.

[Sir Why You Little 35,343]

Neeld is getting players to play a style that simply doesn't suit them. Are the players at fault because they won't accept change? Should they accept change and do something about it? Is Neeld trying to turn some players in to something that they are not? Should we sack certain players because of this? A lot of questions taht will be answered between September and November this year, and not a moment before it.

I had an idea that perhaps Neeld should be given free rein at the end of the year, sack 10-15 players that aren't willing to play his style, draft kids and trade in players that are willing, then give him the next 3 years to show improvement. At the end of the 3 years, Neeld will be forever known as the man that helped save the Melbourne Football Club, or will be the last coach of this club as we know it.

Am I being melodramtic? I don't think I am. We will lose members at the end of this year, it's as simple as that. A team that appears to have gone so far backward in terms of their skill level is going to struggle in today's AFL. We obviously need to improve in so many aspects of our game that I can't find anything to suggest that we will be any better next year. I know we will get good kids at the draft this year, but we are kidding ourselves if we think they will come in in their first year and turn this thing around.

This Club, our Club, MY Club, is in a very poor state. Another 3 years of this and something will have to give. I sincerely hope we improve for the life of this Club.

Footy is footy Billy. Our players are just not fit to play the modern game.

I find it incredible that the MFC has been in its little shell for so long. Why has the club been so clueless about modern standards?

[jumbo returns 6,619]

Footy is footy Billy. Our players are just not fit to play the modern game.

I find it incredible that the MFC has been in its little shell for so long. Why has the club been so clueless about modern standards?

Elite fitness and skill is missing.

At least there's some structure of accountable footy atm.

[Dr. Mubutu 697]

Elite fitness and skill is missing.

At least there's some structure of accountable footy atm.

So it WAS Bohdan's fault all along!

[Deers 202]

Neeld is getting players to play a style that simply doesn't suit them. Are the players at fault because they won't accept change? Should they accept change and do something about it? Is Neeld trying to turn some players in to something that they are not? Should we sack certain players because of this? A lot of questions taht will be answered between September and November this year, and not a moment before it.

Neeld is teaching them to play the way the rest of the competition has played since the beginning of Geelong's dynasty.

I suppose he didn't do it on purpose but with radical change, we're learning everything we need to know about the playing group. Better still, we're able to make - I believe - the correct list changes at season's end.

Teaching a defensive game plan has hindered the player's natural abilities. Those with significant talent are still showing some; those with a little talent are displaying none.

Out of those players struggling under the new regime you have to ask: who is willing to change? Those that are committed to the cause can be taught to improve on their skill sets, or play roles within the team effectively.

If you are 0 for 2 at this point, it's lights out. From what I have seen this year; Bennell, Bate, Dunn and Petterd are done.

Then we get to the middle-tier talents that aren't team players. This is trade territory. I put Moloney front and centre with Martin not far behind. A ruthless man might add Sylvia and Morton and I wouldn't blame them. But Sylvia is A-grade when he feels like it and Morton has increased his 1% count this season. If the price is right, though ...

I would have put Bartram and Macdonald on the block earlier this year, but I give them the benefit of the doubt. Neeld put Bartram in the leadership group and is playing Macdonald a fair bit now. He's come from a club that are renowned for developing reliable foot soldiers. I've said before that I would want Joel with me in the trenches before anyone else. I think they both mean a lot to the regime.

To be honest, I don't expect a drastic turn-over of the list; instead, if a player simply isn't worth a dime, I expect no hesitations from Neeld.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Deers

[monoccular 16,696]

I have to say I personally don't. Have heard him on radio speak a few times and found him really underwhelming.

I hope he goes and Neeld brings in someone exceedingly sharp of mind and someone who has recently played in premiership winning mid-fields.

Nigel Lappin, Cameron Ling ... I'd like to see us bring in one of these types.

...or coached them, like himself. Maybe we have just too many "specialist" or "line" coaches and the head coach doesn't or can't add sufficient input himself.

[monoccular 16,696]

Neeld is teaching them to play the way the rest of the competition has played since the beginning of Geelong's dynasty.

I suppose he didn't do it on purpose but with radical change, we're learning everything we need to know about the playing group. Better still, we're able to make - I believe - the correct list changes at season's end.

Teaching a defensive game plan has hindered the player's natural abilities. Those with significant talent are still showing some; those with a little talent are displaying none.

Out of those players struggling under the new regime you have to ask: who is willing to change? Those that are committed to the cause can be taught to improve on their skill sets, or play roles within the team effectively.

If you are 0 for 2 at this point, it's lights out. From what I have seen this year; Bennell, Bate, Dunn and Petterd are done.

Then we get to the middle-tier talents that aren't team players. This is trade territory. I put Moloney front and centre with Martin not far behind. A ruthless man might add Sylvia and Morton and I wouldn't blame them. But Sylvia is A-grade when he feels like it and Morton has increased his 1% count this season. If the price is right, though ...

I would have put Bartram and Macdonald on the block earlier this year, but I give them the benefit of the doubt. Neeld put Bartram in the leadership group and is playing Macdonald a fair bit now. He's come from a club that are renowned for developing reliable foot soldiers. I've said before that I would want Joel with me in the trenches before anyone else. I think they both mean a lot to the regime.

To be honest, I don't expect a drastic turn-over of the list; instead, if a player simply isn't worth a dime, I expect no hesitations from Neeld.

But one would have to think, love him or not, that Clint may be forced into retirement due to unusable knees.

Maybe he could replace our midfield coach (though I guess Ratten may be looking for a job next year)? Could hardly do worse .

[H_T 2,941]

I have to say I personally don't. Have heard him on radio speak a few times and found him really underwhelming.

I hope he goes and Neeld brings in someone exceedingly sharp of mind and someone who has recently played in premiership winning mid-fields.

Nigel Lappin, Cameron Ling ... I'd like to see us bring in one of these types.

I'd have Brett Ratten's number on speed dial.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Footy is footy Billy. Our players are just not fit to play the modern game.

I find it incredible that the MFC has been in its little shell for so long. Why has the club been so clueless about modern standards?

WYL, you and I often agree on things, I'm interested to know where you think we are headed? I have grave concerns for the Club, especially if there is no obvious improvement before the end of 2014. I'm as passionate as any supporter. While I may not financially contribute as much as some, it makes me no less one-eyed. The fact that I sat there on Saturday night and honestly felt crook in the guts watching my team play the way we did, it was just heartbreaking. To tell me wife (non Melbourne) that for season 2012, I have lost all hope in the Club, and that I didn't really care what happened for the rest of the year, is just so upsetting for me.

If Neeld hasn't lost a lot of players, I'd be awfully surprised. If a supporter like me has lost the passion (there's a lot to lose!) to support the Club that I have supported for over 30 years, I'd hate to think what is going through the minds of a handful of players. While I totally understand what Neeld is trying to achieve in regards to bringing a tougher, more contested brand of footy, I can't help but notice that a number of players look as though they have been totally drained of any enjoyment for the game, any confidence in their own ability to take the game on, any belief in each other. We do not play a team game, this is definitely one thing that lingers from the Bailey era - the most accurate thing I have read on here, can't remember who posted it (it was a while ago now), was that we were too busy developing individuals that we forgot to develop a team. Not a truer(?) word has been spoken on Demonland, and I have not seen any evidence whatsoever to believe Neeld has made inroads in to changing that.

The only positive I have, and I will no doubt get shot down for this, is that I can't help but think we are tanking. Not in their right mind will GWS or GC bid for Viney with Pick 1 or 2, it won't happen, so the fact that we will get Viney with a pick in the 20's, and still have picks 3,4 & 12ish PLUS Viney, the tanking debate makes perfect sense. Neeld could do this without any player knowing any different. Is this Neeld's plan that Malthouse knows about? When Malthouse said the other week that he knows what Neeld is trying to do and thinks it will work, well, so far I'm fcuked if I can see anything that suggests otherwise.

If anyone says that I'm being melodramtic, I will stab you in the eyes with a plastic fork. Things need to change, and it needs to happen bloody quick, otherwise we're in serious strife. You know the AFL community have had a gutful of us when we're travelling as shite as we are, yet the journo's can't even be bothered putting the blowtorch on us. No one cares about the MFC, and who can blame them?

[hardtack 10,187]

Let's just keep our wits about us and keep the coaching staff and administration accountable for the mess we are in.

Is that the same coaching staff and administration you are calling for the sacking of in another thread?

[jumbo returns 6,619]

WYL, you and I often agree on things, I'm interested to know where you think we are headed? I have grave concerns for the Club, especially if there is no obvious improvement before the end of 2014. I'm as passionate as any supporter. While I may not financially contribute as much as some, it makes me no less one-eyed. The fact that I sat there on Saturday night and honestly felt crook in the guts watching my team play the way we did, it was just heartbreaking. To tell me wife (non Melbourne) that for season 2012, I have lost all hope in the Club, and that I didn't really care what happened for the rest of the year, is just so upsetting for me.

If Neeld hasn't lost a lot of players, I'd be awfully surprised. If a supporter like me has lost the passion (there's a lot to lose!) to support the Club that I have supported for over 30 years, I'd hate to think what is going through the minds of a handful of players. While I totally understand what Neeld is trying to achieve in regards to bringing a tougher, more contested brand of footy, I can't help but notice that a number of players look as though they have been totally drained of any enjoyment for the game, any confidence in their own ability to take the game on, any belief in each other. We do not play a team game, this is definitely one thing that lingers from the Bailey era - the most accurate thing I have read on here, can't remember who posted it (it was a while ago now), was that we were too busy developing individuals that we forgot to develop a team. Not a truer(?) word has been spoken on Demonland, and I have not seen any evidence whatsoever to believe Neeld has made inroads in to changing that.

The only positive I have, and I will no doubt get shot down for this, is that I can't help but think we are tanking. Not in their right mind will GWS or GC bid for Viney with Pick 1 or 2, it won't happen, so the fact that we will get Viney with a pick in the 20's, and still have picks 3,4 & 12ish PLUS Viney, the tanking debate makes perfect sense. Neeld could do this without any player knowing any different. Is this Neeld's plan that Malthouse knows about? When Malthouse said the other week that he knows what Neeld is trying to do and thinks it will work, well, so far I'm fcuked if I can see anything that suggests otherwise.

If anyone says that I'm being melodramtic, I will stab you in the eyes with a plastic fork. Things need to change, and it needs to happen bloody quick, otherwise we're in serious strife. You know the AFL community have had a gutful of us when we're travelling as shite as we are, yet the journo's can't even be bothered putting the blowtorch on us. No one cares about the MFC, and who can blame them?

Billy, please......list management

[old dee 23,256]

Billy Mate.

In case it has slipped by you we are this poor.

We do not have to tank.

We are achieving these results when we are trying 100%

There is nothing clever going on we are a bottom 3 side.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Melbourne have played a great, entertaining brand of football for years but it's a brand that will never win a flag; we've been there twice in recent history and been destroyed both times. It' a bit like the old horse and buggy, we looked good but compared to the car we were totally impracticle.

We have to change and all those that want to hang on to the old style are in reality saying we should stick with the horse and buggy, sure we can win 8 to 10 games a year but that's it. Neeld has thrown down the challenge to the players, the club and the supporters to move to a different style to what we've become accustomed to and we can either accept the challenge or get the buggy out of the garage and go back to our mediocre selves.

What he is trying to do is implement a style that has proven to be successful at Collingwood and various clubs so it's not rocket science it's just different.

[old dee 23,256]

Melbourne have played a great, entertaining brand of football for years but it's a brand that will never win a flag; we've been there twice in recent history and been destroyed both times. It' a bit like the old horse and buggy, we looked good but compared to the car we were totally impracticle.

We have to change and all those that want to hang on to the old style are in reality saying we should stick with the horse and buggy, sure we can win 8 to 10 games a year but that's it. Neeld has thrown down the challenge to the players, the club and the supporters to move to a different style to what we've become accustomed to and we can either accept the challenge or get the buggy out of the garage and go back to our mediocre selves.

What he is trying to do is implement a style that has proven to be successful at Collingwood and various clubs so it's not rocket science it's just different.

RobbieF I am in total agreement.

The problem as I see it is we do not have the players to rise out of the bottom six.

This group has trouble pulling up their socks because most of them don't have any on.

The way out of the bottom six is going to be a slow and Painful journey.

Not sure the MFC as a whole is up to the trip.

[BangkokDemon 96]

Spot on jr Like bangkok demon I was lucky enough to be there in 64.

I now have a simple approach after decades of new brooms at the MFC.

I believe it when I see it.

I still go to most home games but I do not expect to win, that way when they actually happen I have a good time and all the others are then bareable.

God only knows why I still keep on keeping on.

Probably to stupid to know when I am done.

I would be joyed beyond belief to have a team that wins more games than it loses.

Carn the Dees

I'll let you in on a little secret. Because the game was not on the Australia Network here in Bangkok until 9pm (midnight Melb time) and I already knew the result, rather than stay up until midnight, we went to bed. A 5:30am 10km run before the Bangkok heat kicked in was far more rewarding.

Like you, although I am full of hope and "eternal" optimism, I too will "believe it, when I see it".

There is nothing any of us can do for now.

Let them get on with the job and I will get on with my life.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

RobbieF I am in total agreement.

The problem as I see it is we do not have the players to rise out of the bottom six.

This group has trouble pulling up their socks because most of them don't have any on.

The way out of the bottom six is going to be a slow and Painful journey.

Not sure the MFC as a whole is up to the trip.

We've had to do what we've done otherwise we would just fade away, you can't survive forever if your base is mediocrity, and slightly higher from time to time. I think we will survive but we need to recruit well this time no more project players no more thinking we can build a side to challenge the top 8 in 3 or 4 years time, the natives are restless and are getting sick of the crap we have been fed.