I'm not a frequent poster by any means on the forum, but I do read it quite often, especially after matches. There's a common lament that's thrown around quite a bit each week; that we've lived through x years of rebuild, and we shouldn't be in this position now, but we should be playing (imagine!) finals footy. I don't disagree with the latter part of the statement, but I'm not sure I completely agree with the first part. I'm an unashamed supporter of Neeld (we'll get to that), and I'm generally optimistic about where we're heading, because I don't believe that this is a rebuilding period; instead, we're building. In other words, Neeld's (re)build is emphatically not a continuation of Bailey's, but is a completely different beast, and an ambitious one at that. Let me explain.

The team under Bailey seemed to be constantly in a rebuild phase: it became almost an axiom of the team. I'm not sure whether Bailey was a bad coach, but he certainly wasn't an ambitious one. By that, I mean that he seemed to be rebuilding, while waiting (patiently!) for a finals opportunity to conveniently present itself. He had an aim, but no objective, the latter being a quantifiable outcome (like "improve kicking efficiency," "improve ratio of tackles to opposition possessions per game", etc.), and the former being the end-goal (which doesn't at all have to be realistic). The club under Bailey was reactionary, conservative; the only really great performances were when the game was on their terms, or when they were criticised of being mediocre (see for example the "bruise-free footy" win over Essendon). They never really attacked games, and I think this was the fault of the insidious "we'll get there one day (but we're not good enough today!)" mentality created by calling it a rebuild. We always had the talent, but never the desire.

Neeld inherited a directionless team. A team that was waiting around to get into the finals, without fighting for it. A rebuild requires that there are some salvagable parts with which to work with. (Renevations à la Buckley's Collingwood are even easier! Just replace a coat of paint, and you're done! ). Neeld said pretty early on, and he has said at almost every opportunity since, that he is working towards something new. A new brand of football, a new intensity at the ball, all overseen by a new coaching staff. Neeld has an ambition, and he said it as soon as he was made coach: to make us the hardest team to play against in the league. I don't think I've heard him say anything about winning a flag, or playing in the finals (I could have missed something, of course). Every team wants to win the flag. Bailey wanted to win the flag. But you can't win the flag by simply saying that you're going to win the flag. Being a "good" team isn't particularly specific or helpful for any real course of action: many different teams are good at different things; even two "good" teams (e.g. Collingwood and Hawthorn) are "good" in different ways. Being a tough team to play against, on the other hand, has defined parameters, and a defined path to achieve it (improve contested possessions, restrict ball movement, etc.).

Neeld is building from scratch, a new team with a new mentality. Neeld's Demons will be, in the future, a proactive team, have no doubt. We have had a shocking year. I'm not that naive. We've won less games than under Bailey. There's no denying that. But there have been few games where I've been disgusted by how the team looks like it didn't show up, whereas that was most of the time with Bailey. Three quarters of a season and a preseason can't erase completely that mentality of rebuilding. But it's going.

It takes a hell of a lot longer to build a house from scratch than to rebuild one. Bailey's house was hideous sometimes, pretty others, but was always shaky, and there is no way it could have gone any higher, because the foundations (which I think are the ambition of the archetect) were always faulty. Neeld is laying new foundations. They don't look like much now, but the house built on them will be a hell of a lot prettier than Bailey's.

Edit: spelling(s)!

Edited July 22, 201213 yr by Bergly Sanders

What you say is pretty much true, it used to make me cringe when Bruce or Green would say "we didn't turn out to play", what did they turn out to do?

The club has been directionless for years because of a inherent weakness that has weaved its way through the club from one generation to the next. I've pointed this out many times on here but there has been a reluctance to accept that this weakness could have crossed from administration to administration and from coach and players to coach and players; well it has and it must be eradicated.

i believe that Neeld is aware of it and is trying to get rid of our acceptance of mediocrity and our seeming acceptance of failure; this is going to be a hard job but it's the only way we will rid ourselves of the stain of the last 48 years.

It's pointless building the list up so we can merely compete in finals and when we lose just accept it, we need to build a club that can win finals and demand answers when we don't. I can recall when Hawthorn used to be our [censored], when we ruled the roost, when Sydney were a chopping block for the rest of the competition; these clubs have rebuilt themselves in to strong proud clubs whilst we've become an embarrassment.

At last, some common sense. Bergly is right. There won't be any quick fixes but there will be a fix. Let's wait patiently and watch it unfold. Let's be supporters and have some faith in the new direction.

I also agree with most of what Bergly has suggested.

However Crawf52 I scoff at the - "Lets Wait Patiently" classic line.

What The Fark have we been doing for the last 48 years?

I want the New House built, completed, keys handed over sooner rather than later.

For the 1st time in nearly 5 decades I have felt my passion wavering in 2012.

I am hoping for some serious new personal to arrive in the off season to help fast track Neeldy's big picture.

Edited July 22, 201213 yr by Old Man Rivers

I also agree with most of what Bergly has suggested.

However Crawf52 I scoff at the - "Lets Wait Patiently" classic line.

What The Fark have we been doing for the last 48 years?

I want the New House built, completed, keys handed over sooner rather than later.

For the 1st time in nearly 5 decades I have felt my passion wavering in 2012.

I am hoping for some serious new personal to arrive in the off season to help fast track Neeldy's big picture.

Don't get the wrong impression Old Man. I've just about run out as well. It's been a long time since '64 and I was 12 then. So I've served my time. I just don't know what else to do but be patient. I've been through all the anger and frustration over the years and it didn't change a thing. I'll give patience a go for a while. It's easier than tearing out the hair.

Don't get the wrong impression Old Man. I've just about run out as well. It's been a long time since '64 and I was 12 then. So I've served my time. I just don't know what else to do but be patient. I've been through all the anger and frustration over the years and it didn't change a thing. I'll give patience a go for a while. It's easier than tearing out the hair.

Yeah fair enough Crawf52, you sound like you have definately done your tour of duty following The Dee's.

Sadly I was only 1 in 1964 & have zero memories of our last great day.

Just like having kids we signed up for life following this bloody football team.

My greatest memories are those two huge preliminary final victories in 88 against The Blues & 2000 against The Roos.

I know how I felt after those games & can only imagine what it feels like to win that one extra game on GF day.

Your right of course until then we simply have to keep the faith & as much as it kills me to say " Be Patient" again.

Well said Bergley

I don't really know what those who want to sack Neeld now and half the list at season's end think would happen then.

Maybe Norm Smith's reincarnation, and RDB and his band of merry men finding the fountain of youth?

Neeld has embarked on a far more ambitious journey than did Bailey or ND - he needs support, and constructive criticism, and a bit of blind faith of course.

I do at times feel like throwing it all in but cannot help myself grabbing a look on TV or going to a game when I can.

Last night was very dispiriting, amongst the worst performances I have seen but there are glimpses of hope now and then.

Edited July 22, 201213 yr by monoccular

Please, post more often.

This is an excellent post and I'm a Neeld fan, but many, many old time followers are reaching saturation point.....

This is an excellent post and I'm a Neeld fan, but many, many old time followers are reaching saturation point.....

I was there last century 1964.

So I guess I could be classed as an "old time followed

For what it's worth I believe this "build" under Neeld is the right thing for us at this point in time.

I've waited 48 years...another couple of years won't hurt if it brings home the bacon.

If it doesn't as Mark Neeld has said "we won't die not knowing".

Stay the course fellow supporters we've not even finished the first quarter.

I was there last century 1964.

So I guess I could be classed as an "old time followed

For what it's worth I believe this "build" under Neeld is the right thing for us at this point in time.

I've waited 48 years...another couple of years won't hurt if it brings home the bacon.

If it doesn't as Mark Neeld has said "we won't die not knowing".

Stay the course fellow supporters we've not even finished the first quarter.

It just seems that the game has morphed so quickly onto a higher level and this club was left floundering - it's going to be an interesting couple of years...

I'm not a frequent poster by any means on the forum, but I do read it quite often, especially after matches. There's a common lament that's thrown around quite a bit each week; that we've lived through x years of rebuild, and we shouldn't be in this position now, but we should be playing (imagine!) finals footy. I don't disagree with the latter part of the statement, but I'm not sure I completely agree with the first part. I'm an unashamed supporter of Neeld (we'll get to that), and I'm generally optimistic about where we're heading, because I don't believe that this is a rebuilding period; instead, we're building. In other words, Neeld's (re)build is emphatically not a continuation of Bailey's, but is a completely different beast, and an ambitious one at that. Let me explain.

The team under Bailey seemed to be constantly in a rebuild phase: it became almost an axiom of the team. I'm not sure whether Bailey was a bad coach, but he certainly wasn't an ambitious one. By that, I mean that he seemed to be rebuilding, while waiting (patiently!) for a finals opportunity to conveniently present itself. He had an aim, but no objective, the latter being a quantifiable outcome (like "improve kicking efficiency," "improve ratio of tackles to opposition possessions per game", etc.), and the former being the end-goal (which doesn't at all have to be realistic). The club under Bailey was reactionary, conservative; the only really great performances were when the game was on their terms, or when they were criticised of being mediocre (see for example the "bruise-free footy" win over Essendon). They never really attacked games, and I think this was the fault of the insidious "we'll get there one day (but we're not good enough today!)" mentality created by calling it a rebuild. We always had the talent, but never the desire.

Neeld inherited a directionless team. A team that was waiting around to get into the finals, without fighting for it. A rebuild requires that there are some salvagable parts with which to work with. (Renevations à la Buckley's Collingwood are even easier! Just replace a coat of paint, and you're done! ). Neeld said pretty early on, and he has said at almost every opportunity since, that he is working towards something new. A new brand of football, a new intensity at the ball, all overseen by a new coaching staff. Neeld has an ambition, and he said it as soon as he was made coach: to make us the hardest team to play against in the league. I don't think I've heard him say anything about winning a flag, or playing in the finals (I could have missed something, of course). Every team wants to win the flag. Bailey wanted to win the flag. But you can't win the flag by simply saying that you're going to win the flag. Being a "good" team isn't particularly specific or helpful for any real course of action: many different teams are good at different things; even two "good" teams (e.g. Collingwood and Hawthorn) are "good" in different ways. Being a tough team to play against, on the other hand, has defined parameters, and a defined path to achieve it (improve contested possessions, restrict ball movement, etc.).

Neeld is building from scratch, a new team with a new mentality. Neeld's Demons will be, in the future, a proactive team, have no doubt. We have had a shocking year. I'm not that naive. We've won less games than under Bailey. There's no denying that. But there have been few games where I've been disgusted by how the team looks like it didn't show up, whereas that was most of the time with Bailey. Three quarters of a season and a preseason can't erase completely that mentality of rebuilding. But it's going.

It takes a hell of a lot longer to build a house from scratch than to rebuild one. Bailey's house was hideous sometimes, pretty others, but was always shaky, and there is no way it could have gone any higher, because the foundations (which I think are the ambition of the archetect) were always faulty. Neeld is laying new foundations. They don't look like much now, but the house built on them will be a hell of a lot prettier than Bailey's.

Edit: spelling(s)!

Good post, bit to sensible for some of the unrealistic melodramatics on here, who you'll be able to work out soon enough, but welcome aboard

At last, some common sense. Bergly is right. There won't be any quick fixes but there will be a fix. Let's wait patiently and watch it unfold. Let's be supporters and have some faith in the new direction.

Crawf, don't be scared by the opinions & banter around here.

It's a good sign that there is a Passion still alive.

One of the big faults of our club is when the supporters Zip they're collective Lips & stop yelling, but rather clap politely.

Keep the passion on the simmer, & when we start to fire we may find our Voice again like we did when Schwarta started to fire us up.

I agree that Neeld is the right man for the job, absolutely.

He learnt from Malthouse - who is an excellent motivator of people

and motivation is hopefully something that will eventually rub off on this group.

We need motivation, passion, intensity and desperation and I think Neeld is at least tryiing to instill that.

We'll be right next year, I truely believe that.

Whilst we mightn't make finals, I think we will be watching a hungry young side who plays Neeld style football.

Well thought out post Bergly Sanders.

I already know I'm in for a bashing here but I do find it fascinating that the basic construct of the argument boils down to who is better Neeld vs Bailey. Is it naive to assume based on what we've seen that Bailey wasn't much good and Neeld's done nothing to encourage the thought that he's a good coach either? Don't get me wrong I genuinely want him to succeed and I 100% agree he's had no luck with injuries and things outside his control. But just as the original argument is that the club lacked ambition and genuine drive can the same argument be made for a supporter base that accepts the lack of competitiveness we've shown in 80% of our games this year?

I guess the crux of my argument is that I'm not sold until its proven I should buy in and I've seen nothing to make me believe yet.

I hope you right.

Remember, it took us 4 years to wake up from the Bailey realm and realize what was happening.

Let's just keep our wits about us and keep the coaching staff and administration accountable for the mess we are in.

I've heard enough politicking and false dawns from coaches that I only believe what I see on the field. Right now, it seems like neeld wants a team of robots. Football is not like that. It is about the mind, body and most importantly spirit. Why is it, that this year do most supporters and the team for that matter, seem dejected and spiritless, almost just going thru the motions, hoping that neelds structures and methodology will get us wins. We need a lot more than structure and fitness, we need spirit, and I'm afraid neeld just does not seem to arouse the soul.

Time will tell, just don't delude yourselves, again.

Fair post Bergly. I tend to agree with your analogy regarding foundations of a house, and my frustrations this year are probably not as bad as my frustration last year despite the fact we'll probably end up winning 4 or 5 less games (surely we won't lose to GCS or GWS, so we'll end up with 4). At least this year we aren't playing bruise free stuff, and are at least making attempts to implement defensive structure and to teach players to run hard the other way. We looked great under Bailey when we won the ball and all ran forward against disinterested interstate sides at te G (slightly perplexed as to why we've totally lost that part of the game but I digress). But we had no appetite to run the other way and defend. Interesting that Roos mentioned this in an article earlier in the year and it was clear that he thought Moloney was a main culprit - perhaps one reason why he's gone backwards this year? Coach no longer allowing him to play on BM's terms.

Having said all that, the jury is still out on Neeld, but we just won't know what he's like till halfway through next season, until he gets to prune his list and decide on what type of recruits he needs. McCartney seems to be going through a similar thing with the Bulldogs and James Hird called him the best coach he'd ever worked with, so we're not alone. Unfortunately, there are too many "coach killers" in the team at the moment - guys like Bail, Dunn, Garland (what the hell was that kick off the ground last night?!) and Petterd make too many bad errors and decisions which just turn the ball over all the time. I feel for Damien Hardwick because he still has a couple of them on his list - he's defintely got Richmond playing the right way but they have guys who panic and make basic errors too, which costs them like it did against North.

Neeld has a better list this year, more experience into the kids and we are on track to having a worse win/loss record of any of the Bailey years. I'm not buying into this having to go backwards to go forward. This team should have been on the verge of top 8 this year. Under Bailey we had the ability to play good football even if it was occasionally. Our skills have gone backwards. In trying to get fitter we look more unfit? We have so many highly rated youngsters on our list, surely they all aren't spuds? We should be better than what we are, everyone knows that.

Neelds coaching record is woeful, two wins from 17 starts, bad as it gets, anybody who accepts that, accepts defeat far to readily.

I hope there are some checkpoints and markers in his contract, the club will not go on much longer like this, we will be back in the can financially, membership buyers and sponsors will abandon ship in droves.

Don't know one real person who will accept another four years of this, with a remote promise of better fortune sometime down the track.,

Suit yourselves about Neeldy,Craig and Misson, but I reckon nobody, not even Gary, forsaw this wreckage.

Neelds coaching record is woeful, two wins from 17 starts, bad as it gets, anybody who accepts that, accepts defeat far to readily.

I hope there are some checkpoints and markers in his contract, the club will not go on much longer like this, we will be back in the can financially, membership buyers and sponsors will abandon ship in droves.

Don't know one real person who will accept another four years of this, with a remote promise of better fortune sometime down the track.,

Suit yourselves about Neeldy,Craig and Misson, but I reckon nobody, not even Gary, forsaw this wreckage.

Bluey ... put those razor blades and sleeping pills back in the medicine cabinet, turn off the warm bath, and take yourself out for a walk to feed the ducks at the local park. Things are never as bad as they seem.

Bluey ... put those razor blades and sleeping pills back in the medicine cabinet, turn off the warm bath, and take yourself out for a walk to feed the ducks at the local park. Things are never as bad as they seem.

Are you sure?

Neelds coaching record is woeful, two wins from 17 starts, bad as it gets, anybody who accepts that, accepts defeat far to readily.

I hope there are some checkpoints and markers in his contract, the club will not go on much longer like this, we will be back in the can financially, membership buyers and sponsors will abandon ship in droves.

Don't know one real person who will accept another four years of this, with a remote promise of better fortune sometime down the track.,

Suit yourselves about Neeldy,Craig and Misson, but I reckon nobody, not even Gary, forsaw this wreckage.

lol

I hope no-one falls for this bait.

I have no care for simple [censored]-stirrers looking for people to fight them online.

Give us an actual cogent argument and the better posters will discuss.

Otherwise, why not post controversial comments on popular YouTube videos - something marginally more worthwhile.

Are you sure?

I think "things are never as bad as they seem" is a maxim that can apply to life in general. Not just footy.

We are three gun midfielders, a deadwood list turnover and two Neeld pre-seasons shy of team that people will sit up and take notice of.

I fully believe this.

"all overseen by a new coaching staff."

And yet, by far the worst part of the team, the midfield, is coached by a member of Bailey regime, Brian Royal.

"all overseen by a new coaching staff."

And yet, by far the worst part of the team, the midfield, is coached by a member of Bailey regime, Brian Royal.

A one-year member...

All our ills won't be changed if/when we move on Royal.