On 23/07/2012 at 01:42, rpfc said:

............

Surround your blue chip talents with blue collar role players.

goes towards creating a champion team as opposed this elusive search for busload of potential champions to make a team, one day, perhaps, maybe !!

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:24, olisik said:

I think Green will play on, he has put his body on his line, kicked some goals and made a contest, and encouraged others to work hard this year. It would be foolish to do a J Mac on him. Let the guy play out his career and retire on his own terms. His on the vet list anyway so isn't taking a space away from the main list.

He didn't even kick up a fuss over a 1 year contract, Brads always taken it under the chin.

I think if we get Cloke Green will retire.

If we don't find another Key Forward, he may stay for 1.

If Green goes we need Petterd.

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:28, Oucher said:

Don't think people are saying that he will be forced to retire, more that he will come to the conclusion of his own accord that this year might be his last.... if he doesn't come to the same conclusion, it will be interesting to see what the club does do though. (given what happened with Bruce and JMac) and that regardless of who our leadership group has in it... the list is still very inexperienced.

If he (Green) goes to another club, do we get compensation for a Veteran?

I'd like us to keep all players till they have played 100 games, set them up with Amazonian sports women (say the Williams sisters and local top women athletes).

Then we wait another 20 years and bingo! Premiership success!

;-)

  On 23/07/2012 at 02:01, olisik said:

This is why our midfield is so bad. People seem to think that if someone works hard that they should be on our list.

Honestly I would prefer a Sylvia, who dosn't work as hard but has a heap of talent over someone like Couch who lacks the talent but busts his chops.

Reason for that is that Sylvia has a higher ceiling that he can move into. You can motivate a Sylvia to work hard and reach higher levels but a Couch type of player will hit his ceiling of potential alot sooner then a Sylvia.

I do not see how stocking up on players with lower talent/potential ceilings will help us win a premiership regardless of how hard they work.

Oli thats where your going wrong. Players who refuse to work hard enough drag the rest backwards. = CULTURE

The Idea is to instill a strong culture that demands all players commit to the work ethic required.

Sylvia is still likely to learn but he's wasted probably 4 years of his carreer. Think Jnr again.

I have one thing to ask the MFC.

How [censored] hard is it to draft players that can win their own ball and hit a target by foot? Seriously?

It's absolutely putrid and I sense that people don't quite understand how much of a problem it is within our team.

We have a team full of players who have a poor kicking skills, poor decision making skills and a bunch of others who struggle to win a one on one contest. There's your answer to why we can't follow a game plan.

Temporary fixes like Magner and Couch I don't understand. I would be doing everything I could over the next few years to sweep out the old, bring in some players from other clubs with kicking skills and a fresh attitude and

draft some [censored] kids who can kick well, make great decisions and win their own ball.

Even our backline of Frawley, Garland, Joel Mac, Bartram and Tom McDonald. None of them have elite footskills. They all butcher it far too often which absolutely kills us coming out of defence.

I'm telling you now, people love what young Tom McDonald has been doing this year but for every good spoil or mark he takes, he consistently turns the ball over.

Why has the most important attribute of playing AFL been overlooked so often for so many years at Melbourne.

Fitzpatrick

Spencer

Bate

Dunn

Morton

Bail

Nicholson

Magner

Moloney

Evans

Martin

Frawley

Garland

Joel Mac

Tom Mac

Bartram

Petterd

Tynan

Mckenzie

Gysberts

The list is endless.

  On 23/07/2012 at 02:19, stevethemanjordan said:

I have one thing to ask the MFC.

How [censored] hard is it to draft players that can win their own ball and hit a target by foot? Seriously?

It's absolutely putrid and I sense that people don't quite understand how much of a problem it is within our team.

We have a team full of players who have a poor kicking skills, poor decision making skills and a bunch of others who struggle to win a one on one contest. There's your answer to why we can't follow a game plan.

Temporary fixes like Magner and Couch I don't understand. I would be doing everything I could over the next few years to sweep out the old, bring in some players from other clubs with kicking skills and a fresh attitude and

draft some [censored] kids who can kick well, make great decisions and win their own ball.

Even our backline of Frawley, Garland, Joel Mac, Bartram and Tom McDonald. None of them have elite footskills. They all butcher it far too often which absolutely kills us coming out of defence.

I'm telling you now, people love what young Tom McDonald has been doing this year but for every good spoil or mark he takes, he consistently turns the ball over.

Why has the most important attribute of playing AFL been overlooked so often for so many years at Melbourne.

Fitzpatrick

Spencer

Bate

Dunn

Morton

Bail

Nicholson

Magner

Moloney

Evans

Martin

Frawley

Garland

Joel Mac

Tom Mac

Bartram

Petterd

Tynan

Mckenzie

Gysberts

The list is endless.

Confidence Steve, Confidence.

Whether your playing Darts, Lawn Bowls or Footy, a good technique & self belief, then confidence.

Most sides skills drop away when they're under pressure & lose confidence. And these are top teams who already Have the self belief, but have temporarily lost the confidence.

We have supposedly recruited skilled players, but many are shallow on for ruggedness.

  On 23/07/2012 at 02:05, rpfc said:

If Petterd, Gysberts, Bennell, make way for less talented but more dedicated players then I am fine with that.

Our culture is terrible, just terrible, and shafting the hardest working among the player is not the way to clean it up.

A couple of things:

In an earlier post you were bemused that anyone would care about rookie listed players, or at least there was that insinuation. I beg to differ. The rookie list is considered very important by clubs these days and not just to try raw ruckman. There are plenty of players making a name for themselves that have come via the rookie draft. James McDonald captained our club, Matty Boyd captains the Dogs, Brad Sewell, Davey, etc, and in more recent times Garlett, Blair, Do Boer, Barlow, Howlett, Dahlhaus, Nicholson... I know you were probably being flippant, but every player on the list gets a tonne of money invested in them, rookie list players included.

Our culture will evolve with the senior group. It will take them a while to make their stamp, but the club are rapt with our young leaders and ultimately the club's culture will be mirrored and driven by them. Having Viney join our ranks at season's end will only help in this regard.

Also, with regards to your quoted line above, I'd rather get more talented players, not less. I have tremendous admiration for Brad Miller and Clint Bartram and what they've been able to eke out in their careers with limited natural ability, but we must make talent a priority with any future drafting, or trading.

Bag out our underperforming players as much as you like guys, but reality is 99% of them were taken in the draft order that was expected and predicted, so the talent is there.

From what we've seen this year, there is something not clicking yet between coach and players, so maybe the thread should be titled "It's the stupid cattle!".

  On 23/07/2012 at 02:29, Ben-Hur said:

A couple of things:

In an earlier post you were bemused that anyone would care about rookie listed players, or at least there was that insinuation. I beg to differ. The rookie list is considered very important by clubs these days and not just to try raw ruckman. There are plenty of players making a name for themselves that have come via the rookie draft. James McDonald captained our club, Matty Boyd captains the Dogs, Brad Sewell, Davey, etc, and in more recent times Garlett, Blair, Do Boer, Barlow, Howlett, Dahlhaus, Nicholson... I know you were probably being flippant, but every player on the list gets a tonne of money invested in them, rookie list players included.

Our culture will evolve with the senior group. It will take them a while to make their stamp, but the club are rapt with our young leaders and ultimately the club's culture will be mirrored and driven by them. Having Viney join our ranks at season's end will only help in this regard.

Also, with regards to your quoted line above, I'd rather get more talented players, not less. I have tremendous admiration for Brad Miller and Clint Bartram and what they've been able to eke out in their careers with limited natural ability, but we must make talent a priority with any future drafting, or trading.

The investment that I was alluding to is not the one we make once they are on the list but the one we make to get them on the list.

In that respect, rookies are a negible investment obviously.

I have heard similar things about how Grimes, Trengove, Clark, and Jones are travelling as leaders and I agree that talent is what we require. But I am more than happy if Neeld wants to address our lack of 24-27 year olds in FA or with the latter picks in the draft over more talented teenagers.

That is what I am alluding to - that, outside of a first 40 picks in the national draft, talent is not the prime consideration when it comes to who is drafted. And if any pick lends themselves to picking the most dedicated - it is the few picks in the Rookie Draft each year.

Wow.

Another thread stating the bleeding obvious.

And another next week???

  On 23/07/2012 at 02:09, dee-luded said:

If he (Green) goes to another club, do we get compensation for a Veteran?

Not sure on this.... the only reason Green would go (in my opinion) would be cos we aren't going to offer him anything. Free Agency allows him to go to a club that might want to give him more time. Surely that is testable with the free agency rules, and if we didn't offer anything to him to stay, we wouldn't get compensation.

  On 23/07/2012 at 02:56, monoccular said:

Wow.

Another thread stating the bleeding obvious.

And another next week???

probably 3 or 4 !!

  On 23/07/2012 at 02:19, stevethemanjordan said:

I have one thing to ask the MFC.

How [censored] hard is it to draft players that can win their own ball and hit a target by foot? Seriously?

A question I often ask myself. To those who spruik it takes 'confidence' - it's not all about confidence.Ask that ^ question by stmj to a Hawk recruiter and they'd answer "Pretty easy actually"That said, I watched other games over the weekend and the same mistakes were being made by foot by players from a number of sides. (It's just it appears more often to happen with our side I guess). The game is that fast nowadays - composure is becoming more critical under pressure. A decent mid or two with excelllent hands/foot/feet and good composure, would be ideal.

  On 22/07/2012 at 07:59, Range Rover said:

Hawthorn also did it with Franlkin, Roughead and Rioli. Collingwood did it with Pendlebury and Thomas. Geelong did it in the early 2000's.

Now it is our turn to hit the jackpot.

It wouldn't matter if Norm Smith himself came back from the dead to coach us if we don't.

From Alistair Clarkson's first year in 2005 there are only 10 players that remain on the list. Some, like Crawford and Croad, retired as premiership players, but plenty were culled over his first few years. Neeld will do the same.

Hawthorn are an interesting case study. Franklin and Roughead were drafted the year before Clarkson arrived and he also had Hodge, Mitchell, Sewell, Lewis, Osborne, Crawford, Bateman and Croad on the list; so he had a solid core of 10 to work with. From there they had wins and just as many losses on draft day. Top 35 picks that haven't worked: Morton, Dowler, Thorp, Muston and Bailey (knees) and the ones that have: Rioli, Whitex, Birchall, Shiels, Schoenmakers and recently Isaac Smith. Xavier Ellis can also now probably be called a miss, but I recognise he was in the best 3 on the ground in their premiership victory.

Hawthorn are the perfect example that you can make mistakes in the draft (including trading Josh Kennedy to Sydney), but if you get a solid core of 16 or so players, plus have a sprinkling of guns on your list (Buddy, Hodge, Crawford, Roughead, Rioli) you can develop into a very competitive side.

I think we've got some solid citizens too, but just not the top end talent. Unlike many, I reckon along side Clark that Trengove can develop into a gun, Frawley will be a gun in a decent side and we've got massive opportunities in this draft. I'll let others ponder who may make the next step up. Stars make the players alongside them better and our challenge is obviously midfield talent, but even Hawthorn show that you don't need the best midfield in the world if you've got talent across the field and some stars on your list. Sewell and Crawford are an example of how a couple of A grade mids surrounded by a mature group can make a difference. Clearly having a coach that has been at the helm for a number of years also makes a difference.

I agree with the OP. Thomas, Pendlebury and Toovey came from one draft. Franklin and Roughead likewise. Sidebottom and Beams too. Our picks 3 and 4 should at least be the equivalent of the latter and hopefully they're supplemented by Viney. Hawthorn got Birchall at 14 and we need a player of similar quality with our pick 13. I still believe that our fortunes can change quicker than people think with a bit of luck and some astute drafting.

  On 23/07/2012 at 02:45, rpfc said:

outside of a first 40 picks in the national draft, talent is not the prime consideration when it comes to who is drafted. And if any pick lends themselves to picking the most dedicated - it is the few picks in the Rookie Draft each year.

Outside of pick 40 (or possibly pick 50 this year according to Shifter) one is speculating on a tall underdeveloped player, such as Tom McDonald, a ruckman of the ilk of Sandilands, a player that may be considered too small, such as Blair (rookie), a player that perhaps had some issues, a player with questionable work ethic, one looks at needs, a small fast forward such as Eddie Betts who was a rookie, or (as you say) perhaps a player that lacks talent, but has the right leadership qualities.

I'm not sure I'd go down the pathway you're suggesting. And I certainly don't consider rookies a "negligible investment" - no matter the angle you're presenting. I consider that there are terrific opportunities to take a punt on a talented player in the rookie draft. This is where astute drafting comes into play. It's recognising why a player may be overlooked, but appreciating their upside and where they may fit into AFL footy. Your view is very simplistic.

  On 23/07/2012 at 01:19, olisik said:

I dont think Couch should remain on the list. I have always had the feeling that he only got a shot because of his old man and that he knew Neeld on a more personal level. After seeing him run around for 2 weeks in our mid field and make barely any impact I cannot see how it would be worthwhile him keeping his spot.

Alot of you may dis-agree but at the end of the day, he is never going to be a premiership mid, and premiership mids is what we need to focus on.

I agree with you.

I think he's shown next to nothing in his 2 games.

Only a bad tradesman blames his tools.

Our team is as good as any.

FB: Nicholson, Garland, Rivers

HB: Watts, Frawley, Grimes

C: Trengove, Jones, Blease

HF: Sylvia, Jurrah, Howe

FF: Davey, Clark, Green

Fol: Jamar, Moloney, Mckenzie

int: Martin, Tapscott, Mcdonald, Pettered, Jetta, Bail, Dunn, Strauss, Sellar, Morton Gysberts, Bennell, Bartram.

This is a pretty talented list. One that should make the finals.

Stop blaming the tools or injuries. Start looking at the real problem.

  On 23/07/2012 at 04:27, tonatopia said:

Only a bad tradesman blames his tools.

Our team is as good as any.

FB: Nicholson, Garland, Rivers

HB: Watts, Frawley, Grimes

C: Trengove, Jones, Blease

HF: Sylvia, Jurrah, Howe

FF: Davey, Clark, Green

Fol: Jamar, Moloney, Mckenzie

int: Martin, Tapscott, Mcdonald, Pettered, Jetta, Bail, Dunn, Strauss, Sellar, Morton Gysberts, Bennell, Bartram.

This is a pretty talented list. One that should make the finals.

Stop blaming the tools or injuries. Start looking at the real problem.

I am sure any tradesman would blame his tools when they are constantly breaking

Low Quality tools = Low Quality jobs.

Haven't you ever tried to slice through a steak with a butter knife before?

  On 23/07/2012 at 03:26, Ben-Hur said:

From Alistair Clarkson's first year in 2005 there are only 10 players that remain on the list. Some, like Crawford and Croad, retired as premiership players, but plenty were culled over his first few years. Neeld will do the same.

Hawthorn are an interesting case study. Franklin and Roughead were drafted the year before Clarkson arrived and he also had Hodge, Mitchell, Sewell, Lewis, Osborne, Crawford, Bateman and Croad on the list; so he had a solid core of 10 to work with. From there they had wins and just as many losses on draft day. Top 35 picks that haven't worked: Morton, Dowler, Thorp, Muston and Bailey (knees) and the ones that have: Rioli, Whitex, Birchall, Shiels, Schoenmakers and recently Isaac Smith. Xavier Ellis can also now probably be called a miss, but I recognise he was in the best 3 on the ground in their premiership victory.

Hawthorn are the perfect example that you can make mistakes in the draft (including trading Josh Kennedy to Sydney), but if you get a solid core of 16 or so players, plus have a sprinkling of guns on your list (Buddy, Hodge, Crawford, Roughead, Rioli) you can develop into a very competitive side.

I think we've got some solid citizens too, but just not the top end talent. Unlike many, I reckon along side Clark that Trengove can develop into a gun, Frawley will be a gun in a decent side and we've got massive opportunities in this draft. I'll let others ponder who may make the next step up. Stars make the players alongside them better and our challenge is obviously midfield talent, but even Hawthorn show that you don't need the best midfield in the world if you've got talent across the field and some stars on your list. Sewell and Crawford are an example of how a couple of A grade mids surrounded by a mature group can make a difference. Clearly having a coach that has been at the helm for a number of years also makes a difference.

I agree with the OP. Thomas, Pendlebury and Toovey came from one draft. Franklin and Roughead likewise. Sidebottom and Beams too. Our picks 3 and 4 should at least be the equivalent of the latter and hopefully they're supplemented by Viney. Hawthorn got Birchall at 14 and we need a player of similar quality with our pick 13. I still believe that our fortunes can change quicker than people think with a bit of luck and some astute drafting.

This is a great post and analysis B-H, let's hope we nail these top picks and have some luck later on in the draft.

  On 23/07/2012 at 04:34, olisik said:

I am sure any tradesman would blame his tools when they are constantly breaking

Low Quality tools = Low Quality jobs.

Haven't you ever tried to slice through a steak with a butter knife before?

Problem is, we have a very talented list. I dont see a problem with the tools, just how they are being used.

  On 23/07/2012 at 04:41, tonatopia said:

Problem is, we have a very talented list. I dont see a problem with the tools, just how they are being used.

I dis-agree, I think we have the wrong tools for the job. The quality of the tools is better suited for work in the VFL

I think one of our teams biggest issue is that we have no god damn chemistry between any of the players.

Everyone talks about talent, skills, culture ect but one of the biggest thing our team needs is chemistry. It would be nice for players to know exactly where the team mates are by instinct for example

  On 22/07/2012 at 08:40, godees said:

Clark, Watts, McKenzie, Moloney, Jamar, Davey, Jurrah, Sellar, Tapscott....etc

Anyone who expected us to win last night is kidding themselves

Right so it doesn't mater what team our opponent fielded????

FFS this was Port, not Hawthorn.

  On 23/07/2012 at 05:17, olisik said:

I think one of our teams biggest issue is that we have no god damn chemistry between any of the players.

Everyone talks about talent, skills, culture ect but one of the biggest thing our team needs is chemistry. It would be nice for players to know exactly where the team mates are by instinct for example

Maybe we should hire Walter White as our coach.