At year's end we need change/s in football department

[jayceebee31 761]

On the 28th of May 2011, George on the Outer wrote a very interesting article named--Injuries no excuse.......lack of game plan is a reason!

2011-05-28 By George_on_the_outer

I whole heartedly agreed at the time and still do-injuries are a part of the reason we are so inconsistent, lack of experience is another but the main frustration I have, is the ruddy lack of a game plan and in particular playing at Etihad.As we got belted last Friday night, the major thing I left the ground was the thought- Gee -didn't we get outcoached tonight.We didn't seem to make moves, we didn't try to assist Scully getting mauled (furthermore-it seemed that the players thought he was definately going to Sydney-as there was NO HELP given)but the thing is NO GAME PLAN.The best coach we have had recently was Sean Wellman whom left for money and now we have Josh Mahoney(first time coach at the MFC as our Forward coach.) Brian Royal- Backline coach whom has never ever been a defender and a team of development coaches in Williams, O'Donnell, Viney etc..& Bailey.

The truly only strategist among the lot is Scotty West whom oversees the centreline and only last year became a full time employee.We need to spend money in this area and gain some experienced teachers/coaches in specialist roles such as Forward coach-like a Carey or the Ox, definately a specialist back coach- as I feel we have lost our umph back there and someone to overall coach us and implement a game plan to suits our young list for the MCG and a seperate plan /s for other grounds interstate and Etihad.To me our plan of going down the guts at the MCG last year was the correct one and by God we seem to be criss crossing all around the place this year.. We have recruited well and now we have to make it work but now we need expertise(the best) to assist our players.

We seem to have lost our way somewhat -what do others think?

[rpfc 28,779]

Here we go again...

How is Scotty West so great and the others tripe?

Jimmy hasn't touched the FD yet and the end of 2011 is the right time for him to mould it.

We will see what happens.

But don't give me this differentiation of our assistants to make Scotty West seem clean of the BS we have served up, it is his mids that seem like disinterested frontrunners.

[Disco Demons 92]

Jim Stynes will stick with Dean Bailey until the end of the season. Until Melbourne plays it's last game your not going to see any changes to the football department.

[hoopla 418]

..... now we have Josh Mahoney(first time coach at the MFC as our Forward coach.) Brian Royal- Backline coach whom has never ever been a defender and a team of development coaches in Williams, O'Donnell, Viney etc..& Bailey.

The truly only strategist among the lot is Scotty West...

What an extraordinary statement!

Why is Scott West any more of a strategist than the other coaches? He was a great tough in and under player .... that doesn't make him a good strategic thinker. To have dragged himself into a premiership forward line with limited natural ability, you would think that Josh Mahoney understands the game pretty well. As part of the coaching panel of the strongest defensive team in recent memory, Brian Royal ought to have a fair knowledge of defensive strategies in the modern game as well.

I hope this post isn't another attempt at the theory that only champion players know how to coach.I have it on very good authority that Gary Lyon reckoned he learnt more about modern football during Dean Bailey's two-hour presentation to the original selection panel than he knew before he went in!How can that be......... Gary was the champion player?

I hope no-one will suggest that we bring on Fev to develop our forward-line strategies!

[Guest Artie Bucco]

Haahaha this old chestnut... My god.

I love it how, when we lose we "have no gameplan", and when we win this argument is forgotten.

Strangely enough, when any team loses, badly, they appear to "have no gameplan" because that is why they are losing - their structures are breaking down and they are not being allowed to execute as they would like. It doesn't mean they are bereft of a gamplan - just that they are not being allowed to implement it.

Funnily enough, bad losses will happen often with a relatively young, physically immature, inexperienced team.

I know not many people like to hear this, but it's gonna take time.

Accept it.

No amount of hand-wringing, whinging, picket lines or coaching changes are going to change that.

[Great_little_footy_team 8]

On the 28th of May 2011, George on the Outer wrote a very interesting article named--Injuries no excuse.......lack of game plan is a reason!

2011-05-28 By George_on_the_outer

I whole heartedly agreed at the time and still do-injuries are a part of the reason we are so inconsistent, lack of experience is another but the main frustration I have, is the ruddy lack of a game plan and in particular playing at Etihad.As we got belted last Friday night, the major thing I left the ground was the thought- Gee -didn't we get outcoached tonight.We didn't seem to make moves, we didn't try to assist Scully getting mauled (furthermore-it seemed that the players thought he was definately going to Sydney-as there was NO HELP given)but the thing is NO GAME PLAN.The best coach we have had recently was Sean Wellman whom left for money and now we have Josh Mahoney(first time coach at the MFC as our Forward coach.) Brian Royal- Backline coach whom has never ever been a defender and a team of development coaches in Williams, O'Donnell, Viney etc..& Bailey.

The truly only strategist among the lot is Scotty West whom oversees the centreline and only last year became a full time employee.We need to spend money in this area and gain some experienced teachers/coaches in specialist roles such as Forward coach-like a Carey or the Ox, definately a specialist back coach- as I feel we have lost our umph back there and someone to overall coach us and implement a game plan to suits our young list for the MCG and a seperate plan /s for other grounds interstate and Etihad.To me our plan of going down the guts at the MCG last year was the correct one and by God we seem to be criss crossing all around the place this year.. We have recruited well and now we have to make it work but now we need expertise(the best) to assist our players.

We seem to have lost our way somewhat -what do others think?

Hate all this tripe about us not having a "gameplan". When we play well, we have a very distinct "gameplan" but then we play like rubbish and everyones saying we've flipped!

Gameplans don't necessarily work for you, you have to work for it! Without 22 players solely committed to giving their all to the game and the "gameplan" it is never going to work. We have shown time and time again that when we turn up and play tough, committed footy, the game works for us and we can very effectively implement a successful "gameplan"

Look at WC, last year everyone wanted Worsfold's head and it looked like he wasn't keeping in touch with the modern game. It took him a few seasons to get the players he needed who were prepared to work hard to play his style together. Now they appear to have the best forward press in the league! You can have the best "gameplan" in the league but without your players being prepared to work for it, it will never appear to be present!

As for the coaching staff, I agree it appears the backline has lost something in the absence of Wellman, something may have to be done there. As for the others, there is no way for us to tell how effective each assistant coach is in their position, we just have to back the FD in...

As for Bailey, it appears he has done so much right but still isn't getting the results we need. Maybe it is time to move on, but I believe if we get a new successful coach in and we look back as a premiership side, us and the young players will have a lot to thank Bailey about as he has taught them so much. I'd love to back him in for a while longer, but I admit I do have my concerns…

[Guest hangon007]

Look at WC, last year everyone wanted Worsfold's head and it looked like he wasn't keeping in touch with the modern game. It took him a few seasons to get the players he needed who were prepared to work hard to play his style together. Now they appear to have the best forward press in the league! You can have the best "gameplan" in the league but without your players being prepared to work for it, it will never appear to be present!

Nice point

Smart clubs show an excess amount of patience regarding both coach and players alike ... Geelong & Collingwood are another two good examples.

Sadly for us our biggest problem is lack of funds inside our football department. Eagles, Geelong & Collingwood dont suffer those problems.

Edited July 5, 2011 by hangon007

[Footynut 302]

FFS so sick of these sort of threads...

Do us all a favour and stop wasting peoples time..JCB

We have seen enough of these threads and frankly they are not going to change anything...

[Sir Why You Little 37,128]

On the 28th of May 2011, George on the Outer wrote a very interesting article named--Injuries no excuse.......lack of game plan is a reason!

2011-05-28 By George_on_the_outer

I whole heartedly agreed at the time and still do-injuries are a part of the reason we are so inconsistent, lack of experience is another but the main frustration I have, is the ruddy lack of a game plan and in particular playing at Etihad.As we got belted last Friday night, the major thing I left the ground was the thought- Gee -didn't we get outcoached tonight.We didn't seem to make moves, we didn't try to assist Scully getting mauled (furthermore-it seemed that the players thought he was definately going to Sydney-as there was NO HELP given)but the thing is NO GAME PLAN.The best coach we have had recently was Sean Wellman whom left for money and now we have Josh Mahoney(first time coach at the MFC as our Forward coach.) Brian Royal- Backline coach whom has never ever been a defender and a team of development coaches in Williams, O'Donnell, Viney etc..& Bailey.

The truly only strategist among the lot is Scotty West whom oversees the centreline and only last year became a full time employee.We need to spend money in this area and gain some experienced teachers/coaches in specialist roles such as Forward coach-like a Carey or the Ox, definately a specialist back coach- as I feel we have lost our umph back there and someone to overall coach us and implement a game plan to suits our young list for the MCG and a seperate plan /s for other grounds interstate and Etihad.To me our plan of going down the guts at the MCG last year was the correct one and by God we seem to be criss crossing all around the place this year.. We have recruited well and now we have to make it work but now we need expertise(the best) to assist our players.

We seem to have lost our way somewhat -what do others think?

Not your best effort JCB...Time for a lie down and a hot Cocoa.

The Club will fix.

[satyricon 267]

It is a case of damned if you do damned if you don't.....

coaching panel applauded for bringing in young players to replace players who Demonland posters don't think deserve to be in the team....

then the criticism if the young players have not got enough experience or body size etc etc to carry out the game plan consistently

The players are given a game plan....it does not involve over handballing, turning it over, kicking or handballing directly to an opponent...this happens with the pressure......we have been missing not only a few of the stronger bodies but also the stronger minds at times during the season

When Sean Wellman coached last season, our defence still leaked goals when they were under a constant bombardment or have you forgotten

And just to test your theory, for every good player who turns into a good coach, there are others who don't or who are perceived as not doing well...ie Voss in Brisbane, they have been a basket case for two seasons......Hird managed to coach 5 losses on the trot, Primus and Port...

We all do need to get a grip sometimes, being a Melbourne supporter has been a long and rocky road, and to use the footy vernacular the Club dropped the ball for quite a few years....We have now picked it up again and we are running with it, unfortunately the road is not flat, it is full of bumps, hills, obstacles etc etc

If at the end of the season if the Club decides to clear out the Footy Dept then so be it...but until then yes be disappointed, yes be frustrated, but if you must vent your spleen...please take a deep breath and actually try and put forward an argument that is not full of holes....in my opinion of course

[jayceebee31 761]

Not your best effort JCB...Time for a lie down and a hot Cocoa.

The Club will fix.

Thank for your advise- had hot chocolate instead.Maybe you should get to a few matches to see.

[jayceebee31 761]

It is a case of damned if you do damned if you don't.....

coaching panel applauded for bringing in young players to replace players who Demonland posters don't think deserve to be in the team....

then the criticism if the young players have not got enough experience or body size etc etc to carry out the game plan consistently

The players are given a game plan....it does not involve over handballing, turning it over, kicking or handballing directly to an opponent...this happens with the pressure......we have been missing not only a few of the stronger bodies but also the stronger minds at times during the season

When Sean Wellman coached last season, our defence still leaked goals when they were under a constant bombardment or have you forgotten

And just to test your theory, for every good player who turns into a good coach, there are others who don't or who are perceived as not doing well...ie Voss in Brisbane, they have been a basket case for two seasons......Hird managed to coach 5 losses on the trot, Primus and Port...

We all do need to get a grip sometimes, being a Melbourne supporter has been a long and rocky road, and to use the footy vernacular the Club dropped the ball for quite a few years....We have now picked it up again and we are running with it, unfortunately the road is not flat, it is full of bumps, hills, obstacles etc etc

If at the end of the season if the Club decides to clear out the Footy Dept then so be it...but until then yes be disappointed, yes be frustrated, but if you must vent your spleen...please take a deep breath and actually try and put forward an argument that is not full of holes....in my opinion of course

Thanks for your advise and comments- however, I say that our defence was looked upon as the major strength of our team along with Jamar.

[Sir Why You Little 37,128]

Thank for your advise- had hot chocolate instead.Maybe you should get to a few matches to see.

I have been to about 8 games this year....i see a lot. The rest i have watched on TV which you see even closer.

Thanks for the advice.B)

[jayceebee31 761]

I have been to about 8 games this year....i see a lot. The rest i have watched on TV which you see even closer.

Thanks for the advice.B)

I have always respected your view/s. However, at the game you can see leadership in the warm ups, during quarter time etc.- you get a greater feel.I personally feel TV watching is the worst..hate it- only watch us when I cannot get interstate.

[Pipefitter 2,168]

I love the NO GAMEPLAN stuff. Do people actually believe that an afl level coach has no GAMEPLAN?

"ok boys, get out there, run after the ball for 30 mins and I'll see you at quarter time.

[pitchfork 181]

Simplistic argument.

I've never fully bought the whole - "need to be a backman to coach the backline" - If Leigh Matthews feels like coaching the backline I'd say everyone would welcome a 4 time premiership coach down to the club despite the fact he never played there...(for that matter, despite the Wayne Britton experiment, I see no reason why being an ex-AFL player is a prereq, just look to US sports).

- This is not to say that some coaches do not deserve criticism and maybe a kick out the door, just that it doesn't necessarily make sense that an ex-champ should be a good coach

Also, the suggestion that there is "no game plan" makes me think that you haven't been going to the footy for the past 2 seasons. While it's fair enough to say that when we look bad, the players look lost, it's clear there is some rhyme or reason to the way they go about it when it works...win or loss.

[Sir Why You Little 37,128]

I have always respected your view/s. However, at the game you can see leadership in the warm ups, during quarter time etc.- you get a greater feel.I personally feel TV watching is the worst..hate it- only watch us when I cannot get interstate.

Depends how many camera's are at the game. A Close up on a pack situation can show you a lot more than just watching from a far in the grand stand.

I love the Vibe at a live game, and yes if i can get there i will....But sometimes to see what is going on at the fall of the ball the Close up Camera lens will show a lot more.

What you do miss on the TV is the up and down Ground structures of each team, particularly from kick outs and boundry throw ins...

So each form of watching has the pos & neg.

Your assessment of the FD was i thought harsh and not well thought out....and let's just say at least 8 weeks Premature JCB.

Our leaders are still Babies....Fact. Our present Captain is not a natural Leader......is that Dean's fault, or Josh Mahoney's??

[H_T 3,049]

Whilst the coaching department I'm sure will be looked at in due course as it is every season, I'm more concerned about the "leadership group". I think that needs a good shake up and I'd encourage our young leaders to step up and take the mantle and lead the way. I think they present well on the field in a consistent basis if the side is performing well or not, unlike some of our senior leaders who go missing a bit when the side requires them to dig in.

I think another pre-season will see the likes of our younger leaders ready to go in 2012. I hope they're encouraged to do so.

[Guest Artie Bucco]

Simplistic argument.

I've never fully bought the whole - "need to be a backman to coach the backline" - If Leigh Matthews feels like coaching the backline I'd say everyone would welcome a 4 time premiership coach down to the club despite the fact he never played there...(for that matter, despite the Wayne Britton experiment, I see no reason why being an ex-AFL player is a prereq, just look to US sports).

- This is not to say that some coaches do not deserve criticism and maybe a kick out the door, just that it doesn't necessarily make sense that an ex-champ should be a good coach

Also, the suggestion that there is "no game plan" makes me think that you haven't been going to the footy for the past 2 seasons. While it's fair enough to say that when we look bad, the players look lost, it's clear there is some rhyme or reason to the way they go about it when it works...win or loss.

Agreed.

You hardly need to be a champion player either - Mark Neeld? Scott Watters? Brenton Sanderson? Alistair Clarkson? Dean Bailey?

Not the worst, but hardly the best.

Being the backline coach is more about performing the roles and ball movement out of the backline, than actual defensive skills and knowing how to defend.

You don't need to have played in the backline to understand the mindset, and any idiot can teach those other things.

[Bruce Almighty 0]

In all the games we have lost this year have nothing to do with a gameplan - they are simply a lack of intensity which is clearly an attitude problem - and the coach and his assistants need to fix this ASAP!

[Sir Why You Little 37,128]

.

You don't need to have played in the backline to understand the mindset, and any idiot can teach those other things.

Why make ridiculous comments like this??? Could not be further from the truth Artie....

[Captain Jack Jordan 32]

Why make ridiculous comments like this??? Could not be further from the truth Artie....

This..... aggression..... will not stand man .

[Captain Jack Jordan 32]

I did not watch my buddies die face down in the muck to put up with this forum!!!!

[Sir Why You Little 37,128]

This..... aggression..... will not stand man .

STFU Walter.....B)

[Akum 2,660]

We have a huge gaping coaching hole in game strategy & tactics. By "strategy" I mean what plans we make before the game against the side we are playing next, and includes selection & positions, and how to nullify their strengths & exploit their weaknesses etc. By "tactics" I mean changes that need to be made during the game. Our coaching team seriously lacks these skills at present, and we'll never be a top side if we don't get them from somewhere.

This doesn't necessarily mean that DB goes; the alternative is to bring in someone with these specific skills (if we already have someone internally, so much the better), and Dean to continue as head coach. I doubt that Hird has these skills, but he has Thompson who does (well, against Geelong at least). Last year the top teams didn't bother to prepare for us, but they are now leaving nothing to chance and meticulously preparing and planning for us (much better than we plan & prepare for them!). Ess vs Geelong is a classic example of how an inferior team can beat a better team through superior strategy & tactics.

Whether a strategy & tactics specialist coach would work depends on whether Dean is OK about sharing power with & taking advice from someone else on decisions during the game. Not everybody can do this, but internally the FD will know whether he can or not. Dean does seem to have the respect of his players & the rest of the coaching team & FD, and if this impression is true, then the amount of disruption created by sacking him at the end of the season is not going to be worth it. Besides, he does do a lot of other things right.