Another Luke Ball Poll

[rolly 149]

No arguement Rhino on this one. I followed it all very closely so i understand well what happened. My response is Why bother to have a draft if that course of action is sanctioned?

couldn't agree more mate...every team that had a pick from about 15+ should be ashamed of themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_AFL_Draft

there are maybe a handful of players picked in the teens/20's that you would take above him, and i am still incredulous that the whole debarcle was sanctioned by the governing body.

baffles the mind that a player can choose where he gets drafted to and for what money

[dee-luded 2,959]

HaHaHa! Fair enough, i will pay that....You are a slight Loose Cannon aern't you DL....Be proud of it...!

I am, I'm very proud of my creative side, (even if limited to being learnt without assistance), and often the things unsaid, say a lot. I'm not one to expand a lot on a public forum normally, especially when the snipers are in control of the environment. and I've always felt too many words are a waste of peoples energy and time. Direct & too the point is best whenever possible.

That is why I'm excited about the sounds coming from our New Coach & his team. He sounds of a sterner breed & won't suffer the 'Sounds of Julie Anthony', eminating from any of our 'skilled players'.

[Sir Why You Little 36,757]

I am, I'm very proud of my creative side, (even if limited to being learnt without assistance), and often the things unsaid, say a lot. I'm not one to expand a lot on a public forum normally, especially when the snipers are in control of the environment. and I've always felt too many words are a waste of peoples energy and time. Direct & too the point is best whenever possible.

That is why I'm excited about the sounds coming from our New Coach & his team. He sounds of a sterner breed & won't suffer the 'Sounds of Julie Anthony', eminating from any of our 'skilled players'.

I hear the same Audio DL. and i am glad we got in just before Free Agency. I do not think all clubs will survive this, particularly in Melbourne. Free Agency will do a lot of the AFL's work for them over the next 5 years before another Broadcasting agreement is drawn up.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I hear the same Audio DL. and i am glad we got in just before Free Agency. I do not think all clubs will survive this, particularly in Melbourne. Free Agency will do a lot of the AFL's work for them over the next 5 years before another Broadcasting agreement is drawn up.

I agree, that as things currently are (world economic expansion), Melbourne can't really carry so many teams. BUT, IF the world goes into a 'Great Depression', then it's not out of the realms of us going back into a 'localised trading' situation. Where all the past credit oriented things of the last 40 or 50 Yrs could simply reverse.

Where that circumstance occurred, it would make things very interesting re the AFL.

[Sir Why You Little 36,757]

I agree, that as things currently are (world economic expansion), Melbourne can't really carry so many teams. BUT, IF the world goes into a 'Great Depression', then it's not out of the realms of us going back into a 'localised trading' situation. Where all the past credit oriented things of the last 40 or 50 Yrs could simply reverse.

Where that circumstance occurred, it would make things very interesting re the AFL.

It is so important that the MFC has re aligned with the MCC when we did. To be alone now would be very dangerous to our survival

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

No arguement Rhino on this one. I followed it all very closely so i understand well what happened. My response is Why bother to have a draft if that course of action is sanctioned?

Your posting suggests otherwise.

The course of action is not directly sanctioned by the AFL (Lack of understanding there on your part). There were issues particular to Ball as I previously mentioned. First the health risk and second the player risk (agreeing to actually play). This is the first time an experienced AFL footballer has done this. So it hardly degrades the draft as a process. However the advent of free agency will open avenues for experienced players to achieve destination outcomes.

It is so important that the MFC has re aligned with the MCC when we did. To be alone now would be very dangerous to our survival

Any contribution of the MCC is very welcome to MFC but it wont in itself keep the wolves from our door. Its one source of support but it is not a bottomless pit. Under the current arrangements the MCC have no obligation to pick up the tab on MFC if we are at risk financially. MFC still need to develop a wide arrangement of revenue streams to afford to compete with the best in the competition. Its still a long way off that. And we continue to live hand to mouth were all revenue is consumed in the battle to be a top AFL club. MFC survival and the survival of a number of clubs depends the further development of AFL as a national code and with that the continued financial largesse that comes from the sale of the TV rights.

[Sir Why You Little 36,757]

Your posting suggests otherwise.

The course of action is not directly sanctioned by the AFL (Lack of understanding there on your part). There were issues particular to Ball as I previously mentioned. First the health risk and second the player risk (agreeing to actually play). This is the first time an experienced AFL footballer has done this. So it hardly degrades the draft as a process. However the advent of free agency will open avenues for experienced players to achieve destination outcomes.

Any contribution of the MCC is very welcome to MFC but it wont in itself keep the wolves from our door. Its one source of support but it is not a bottomless pit. Under the current arrangements the MCC have no obligation to pick up the tab on MFC if we are at risk financially. MFC still need to develop a wide arrangement of revenue streams to afford to compete with the best in the competition. Its still a long way off that. And we continue to live hand to mouth were all revenue is consumed in the battle to be a top AFL club. MFC survival and the survival of a number of clubs depends the further development of AFL as a national code and with that the continued financial largesse that comes from the sale of the TV rights.

Well aware the job has only just begun with the MCC but it is a big plus to be back home.

The health risks with Luke Ball i shall always wonder about. It didn't stop him putting a hefty price on his head, so he was obviously confident his career was able to progress for many seasons. Hasn't missed a beat at the Filth so he was right! Which does make his drafting somewhat dubious.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Well aware the job has only just begun with the MCC but it is a big plus to be back home.

The health risks with Luke Ball i shall always wonder about. It didn't stop him putting a hefty price on his head, so he was obviously confident his career was able to progress for many seasons. Hasn't missed a beat at the Filth so he was right! Which does make his drafting somewhat dubious.

No it doesnt.

The Filth would not have offered him a large contract had they not been privy to his medical records. Only Collingwood were given access to those records. They would not have touched on blind faith. And the risk of doing that was evidence with the howler of a deal Carlton did on McLean. All the soft tissue injuries and the modified training programs could and should have been identified.

The MCC connection is an important connection but take it in its proper context and dont oversell it.

[Sir Why You Little 36,757]

No it doesnt.

The Filth would not have offered him a large contract had they not been privy to his medical records. Only Collingwood were given access to those records. They would not have touched on blind faith. And the risk of doing that was evidence with the howler of a deal Carlton did on McLean. All the soft tissue injuries and the modified training programs could and should have been identified.

The MCC connection is an important connection but take it in its proper context and dont oversell it.

But Rhino i am aware the Filth were the only club who saw those records (allegedly) and that is what makes a farce of that draft. Where is the level playing field. The price he put on his services meant he was confident that medically he was ready to go. Clubs got shafted again while the Filth did as they pleased. Everyone tippy toed without a word. Made me sick at the time.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

But Rhino i am aware the Filth were the only club who saw those records (allegedly) and that is what makes a farce of that draft. Where is the level playing field. The price he put on his services meant he was confident that medically he was ready to go. Clubs got shafted again while the Filth did as they pleased. Everyone tippy toed without a word. Made me sick at the time.

No it isnt at all. A players medical records are the private property of that person. They have no legal right for public dissemination without the individual's consent. Ball gave consent to only Collingwood. If anyone else had access to Balls records its a serious breach of medical ethics and the law

Brock McLean was confident he was ready to go to. There were no assurances. Luke Ball did as he pleased. And you have resorted to another conspiracy theory to try and fill the yawning gap in your understanding of the issues. Its scary how little you do actually understand. And you will be the last person to realise it.

[Sir Why You Little 36,757]

No it isnt at all. A players medical records are the private property of that person. They have no legal right for public dissemination without the individual's consent. Ball gave consent to only Collingwood. If anyone else had access to Balls records its a serious breach of medical ethics and the law

Brock McLean was confident he was ready to go to. There were no assurances. Luke Ball did as he pleased. And you have resorted to another conspiracy theory to try and fill the yawning gap in your understanding of the issues. Its scary how little you do actually understand. And you will be the last person to realise it.

Luke Ball can do what he likes with his medical records yes, but that still doesn't explain rhe farce of the draft. WHY HAVE IT if certain players are compromised ?

The Aints couldn't do a deal ...that means you enter the draft and test your luck i would say... Unless of course you have an AFL sanctioned shot gun pointed at all clubs except Collingwood.

Edited January 30, 2012 by why you little

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Luke Ball can do what he likes with his medical records yes, but that still doesn't explain rhe farce of the draft. WHY HAVE IT if certain players are compromised ?

The Aints couldn't do a deal ...that means you enter the draft and test your luck i would say... Unless of course you have an AFL sanctioned shot gun pointed at all clubs except Collingwood.

You said that the lack of access to medical records is what makes a farce of the draft in post #109. I explained why it was so? Now you are saying that it does not explain the farce of the draft.

Thanks you have establish you dont understand. And all the melodrama,hyperbole contempt you can muster can do little to camouflage it.

[Sir Why You Little 36,757]

You said that the lack of access to medical records is what makes a farce of the draft in post #109. I explained why it was so? Now you are saying that it does not explain the farce of the draft.

Thanks you have establish you dont understand. And all the melodrama,hyperbole contempt you can muster can do little to camouflage it.

I think you secretly barrack for Collingwood Rhino. I know about medical records. I have had to use my own at certain times. Yes they belong to Luke but as a proffessional footballer he is diluting the integrity of the National Draft by shielding them. Did the AFL make any issue of this? Nope he got to wear he wanted. As dodgy as Ju$$. Luke won. The draft was made to look stupid.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I think you secretly barrack for Collingwood Rhino. I know about medical records. I have had to use my own at certain times. Yes they belong to Luke but as a proffessional footballer he is diluting the integrity of the National Draft by shielding them. Did the AFL make any issue of this?

Yes the AFL should have breached fundamental privacy rights of the individual and forced him to release them. There is no way the AFL could have done that without causing a huge legal, ethical and community storm. You dont understand the privacy laws and employment laws.

[old55 23,072]

Luke Ball preferred to go to Collingwood and used the leverage at his disposal to get there - he only spoke to them, stipulated a contract amount $900K over 2 years, I don't see anything heinous in this. We still could have selected him and we could have done it on the back of Collingwood's due diligence - they checked him out medically and they were prepared to pay the $900K. That doesn't make a mockery of the draft. The price they ultimately paid was diluted because they are only paying him $90K this year so they effectively got him for $330K/year across 3 years and we would've had to pay $450K per year over two years. He never said he'd stand out of football if he was selected by a club other than Collingwood as stated by Range Rover in another thread - that would be draft tampering.

[daisycutter 29,450]

Yes the AFL should have breached fundamental privacy rights of the individual and forced him to release them. There is no way the AFL could have done that without causing a huge legal, ethical and community storm. You dont understand the privacy laws and employment laws.

I'm not trying to buy into this argument and I think it was Nasher who pointed out the real issue with the afl was probably fear of restraint of trade challenges to the draft system.

However it is overstating things to say that employment laws do not allow for disclosure of preexisting medical conditions and/or submitting yourself to medical examinations.

Not saying it is relevant to the Ball case because he could argue he wasn't seeking employment with anyone but Collingwood with whom he complied in such considerations

The Ball case however did expose some shortcomings of the Draft system which were probably inevitable given that it is built on some tenuous considerations and assumptions

The introduction of FA doesn't solve all those Draft/Trade issues as it only applies to long term player employees.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I'm not trying to buy into this argument and I think it was Nasher who pointed out the real issue with the afl was probably fear of restraint of trade challenges to the draft system.

However it is overstating things to say that employment laws do not allow for disclosure of preexisting medical conditions and/or submitting yourself to medical examinations.

Not saying it is relevant to the Ball case because he could argue he wasn't seeking employment with anyone but Collingwood with whom he complied in such considerations

The Ball case however did expose some shortcomings of the Draft system which were probably inevitable given that it is built on some tenuous considerations and assumptions

The introduction of FA doesn't solve all those Draft/Trade issues as it only applies to long term player employees.

Restraint of trade issues are part of it. The other is the workplace harassment issues if the AFL were seen to be forcing Ball to put forward his private medical records. I am not sure how legally exposed the AFL were if they threatened to restrict Ball's participation of the draft under workplace harrassment considerations.

Your measured assessment of the Ball impact on the draft situation is valid and FA will at this stage only apply yo LT players.

[Sir Why You Little 36,757]

Yes the AFL should have breached fundamental privacy rights of the individual and forced him to release them. There is no way the AFL could have done that without causing a huge legal, ethical and community storm. You dont understand the privacy laws and employment laws.

Yes i do understand them. Why have a draft if players can just with hold their medical records to all except the preferred club? Yes Medical records are private, but both Collingwood & Ball knew it was a formality and that he was ready to go. Within hours he was on a 747 jetting to Arizona remember.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Yes i do understand them. Why have a draft if players can just with hold their medical records to all except the preferred club? Yes Medical records are private, but both Collingwood & Ball knew it was a formality and that he was ready to go. Within hours he was on a 747 jetting to Arizona remember.

Not all draft players have a recognised and sustained OP issue and are therefore are subject to medical clearance. Ball chose Collingwood and gave them access to his medical records only. And given the concern over Ball's health its no wonder they shot him off to Arizona for special training. Its unbelievable despite what has been clearly and repeatedly explained to you by a number of posters that you still try and peddle illogical and poorly thought through conspiracy theories. And no you dont understand them at all. if you did you would pose such flimsy and ill informed arguments.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Not all draft players have a recognised and sustained OP issue and are therefore are subject to medical clearance. Ball chose Collingwood and gave them access to his medical records only. And given the concern over Ball's health its no wonder they shot him off to Arizona for special training. Its unbelievable despite what has been clearly and repeatedly explained to you by a number of posters that you still try and peddle illogical and poorly thought through conspiracy theories. And no you dont understand them at all. if you did you would pose such flimsy and ill informed arguments.

Ease up a bit here RR. You're basically admitting that Ball manipulated his way to Collingwood. By not giving other Clubs access to his medical records, which he in entitled to do, gave other Clubs minimal chance of picking him up. He knew what he was entitled to do, and as a result, got to his pre-announced destination.

Simple solution for this not to happen in the future would be for all previously listed AFL players who enter the draft are, by law, required to release their medical records to any Club upon request. If it's a clause in the draft application process, they (nominating player) has nothing to fight. It would ensure the system is fair to all Clubs, rather than the regular select few.

[Sir Why You Little 36,757]

Not all draft players have a recognised and sustained OP issue and are therefore are subject to medical clearance. Ball chose Collingwood and gave them access to his medical records only. And given the concern over Ball's health its no wonder they shot him off to Arizona for special training. Its unbelievable despite what has been clearly and repeatedly explained to you by a number of posters that you still try and peddle illogical and poorly thought through conspiracy theories. And no you dont understand them at all. if you did you would pose such flimsy and ill informed arguments.

There are around 750 players registered in the AFL. All of them no doubt have their own medical records that are private. Why was luke able to give Collingwood carte blanche?

Has he missed even one game at the Filth due to OP? Don't think so...

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

There are around 750 players registered in the AFL. All of them no doubt have their own medical records that are private. Why was luke able to give Collingwood carte blanche?

Given you claim you understand the privacy aspects of medical records, I cant believe you asked such a naive question. Breath taking really. And the answer is.....Because he can. The records are private and can only be released with the individuals consent. Got it? Ball only released his records to Collingwood.

Has he missed even one game at the Filth due to OP? Don't think so...

Its irrelevant in regard to what happened at the time of the drafting. But once again McLean is a reasonable reference points about risks of players breaking down.

Ease up a bit here RR. You're basically admitting that Ball manipulated his way to Collingwood. By not giving other Clubs access to his medical records, which he in entitled to do, gave other Clubs minimal chance of picking him up. He knew what he was entitled to do, and as a result, got to his pre-announced destination.

Yes and on the same basis so have you.

Simple solution for this not to happen in the future would be for all previously listed AFL players who enter the draft are, by law, required to release their medical records to any Club upon request. If it's a clause in the draft application process, they (nominating player) has nothing to fight. It would ensure the system is fair to all Clubs, rather than the regular select few.

The AFL cannot instigate a "law" or regulation that is in direct contravention of Federal privacy laws and potentially triggering restraint of trade. Why do you claim earlier that Ball was entitled to control his health records???

Ball could still refuse to go to any other Club and his preferred Club could structure his package to be restrictive to other Clubs to take on. Try again Billy.

[Bossdog 2,002]

WYL and rhino, Take a chill pill boys This happened two years ago Next you will be argueing about the weather. This is a new year and preseason to 2012 and as always we should be excited and looking forward to the year

[Sir Why You Little 36,757]

Given you claim you understand the privacy aspects of medical records, I cant believe you asked such a naive question. Breath taking really. And the answer is.....Because he can. The records are private and can only be released with the individuals consent. Got it? Ball only released his records to Collingwood.

And by doing so he compromised the draft. Which was happily sanctioned by the AFL. My point all along. Yes Medical Records are private. I know that. I spent 5 years of my childhood in Hospital.

And stop comparing Brock Mclean's trade to Carlton with the Ball trade. Totally different.

Talk about flimsy FFS.

Edited January 31, 2012 by why you little

[Demonsterative 3,019]

WYL and rhino, Take a chill pill boys This happened two years ago Next you will be argueing about the weather. This is a new year and preseason to 2012 and as always we should be excited and looking forward to the year

C'Mon guys, time to kiss and make up, agree to disagree or raise a white flag. If you cant do that, start PM ing each other. It seems its a personal issue using topics as your tools.