Will the tanking cheapen any future success?

[Mydee 288]

Yes, BUT WHO CARES!!!!!!!!!! So long as the future success is a flag.

AzzKikA

I do.

As the whole AFL system is corrupt it taints everyone involved in it. As someone else has pointed out other clubs, have taken advantage of the system in other forms. I would also add that the basic unfairness occurs in other was such as Collingwood and Essendon get the advantages of fixtures etc with its inherent marketing and player management advantages. Vlad and his impalers have recentlyunderwritten the poaching of a player who has only played a handful of junior games from Rugby League for well above market rates etc etc.

I do recognise that the club must take certain measures to ensure its success, but I don't have to like it. I think that it is acceptable to bring younger players on more quickly in lean years but I am less comfortable when one of our best players is kept in the Magoos and we play players out of position.

If the club had been a little bit more open when they canvassed memberships, many members may have been inclined to say, well tell me when you are fair dinkum and I will renew my membership. Having followed the club through the Flower years at least there was some solace in knowing that, however inept, the club was trying to win and that Robbie was always worth watching. I am not sure that watching Frawley and warnock play forward holds the same attraction

There is no guarantee that "tanking" will guarantee a flag, I seem to recall Jim Tilbrook and Kelvin Templeton, pre Demonland blogs of course, engendering the same sort of expectations, however I will concede that drafting has become far more analytical and the first couple of picks are seldom duds, but ther have been some notable exceptions, Brisbane has a first round draft pick kicking the dew off the grass (or XXXX cans) in the Brisbane suburbs.

Finally, tanking has its downsides which seemed to have been glossed over by the tankards. Suddenly other things rather than watching rigged football matches becomes more appealing. World professional wrestling provides an example of a good sport descending into farce. They always seem to try in Rugby League and even mowing the lawn seems more useful. I also worry about developing a losing culture, the difference between first and second is sometimes down to these factors.

So yes I do care about tanking. I might accept some of it begrudginly but don't ask me to gloat about it.

[45HG 1,539]

I appreciate the sentiment Mydee, but this isn't really the question.

If we win a premiership in 2013, will that be cheapened because we played a backman up forward and lost a game after the siren in round 18 2009?

And about the membership, we support the club every year, regardless of circumstance. If you're lucky enough to afford a membership and you love the club, you should do it whether or not you agree with our football department's decisions.

This is the most "fair dinkum" I think I've ever seen the club.

[Sir Why You Little 36,587]

Bailey did not cheat yesterday-He used the game wisely to gauge more information about future player positions.

Stop insinuating that some form of cheating took place

agree that we didn't cheat but come on mate, gauging information about future player postions. Your not on the match commitee are you?

No i am not, but i have played chess. So i know what Bails was doing. Next year he might pull a major move that could win us a major game, and at the same time he kept the Draft selections alive. Smart Man.

[rpfc 28,045]

If the club had been a little bit more open when they canvassed memberships, many members may have been inclined to say, well tell me when you are fair dinkum and I will renew my membership.

They are being fair dinkum.

The benefits of finishing 4 and 18 instead of 5 and 17 are so obvious that any person in their position would be doing the same thing.

Oh, and the reason we have 31 500 members: Jack Watts.

[45HG 1,539]

You've forgotten Jim Stynes.

[Sir Why You Little 36,587]

If the club had been a little bit more open when they canvassed memberships, many members may have been inclined to say, well tell me when you are fair dinkum and I will renew my membership. Having followed the club through the Flower years at least there was some solace in knowing that, however inept, the club was trying to win and that Robbie was always worth watching. I am not sure that watching Frawley and warnock play forward holds the same attraction

Football has become 24/7 professional since the great Days of Robbie. Drafting is totally Different.

If we win the first 2 games next year ime sure you will be singing our song loudly.

If Bails had coached like yesterday in Round 4 i would be worried, but the remainder of this season are merely practise games for next year & Beyond.

[rpfc 28,045]

You've forgotten Jim Stynes.

He got us to 29600 we he came in 2008 but I reckon about 1500 members signed up because of a certain schoolkid who will wear number 4 for many years, and is, according to mydee and others, ill gotten gain.

And if mydee says, "no, we were crap last year, we deserved to finished last." We finished there because of list management that looked eerily similar to the things he derides - injury sensitivity, players in new positions, and youth over seasoned professionals.

[45HG 1,539]

Stynes signed those members in about 3 weeks - we also had a ridiculous amount of members pre-christmas.

I agree Watts played some part, but there has been an overwhelming positivty surrounding this club that has entered the fray since the Irishman took the helm.

I'm also not so sure that playing the youngsters is "list management" - they probably give us a better chance of winning!

[Einstein 1]

I voted 'no' because in a few years time I can't imagine giving it two thoughts. It'll be a distant memory.

But right now, I am not enjoying the experience at all. It's awful.

I would have voted for a 4th option - 'I just want the whole experience erased from my memory.' That about sums up where I am at with it all.

Having willed for a loss yesterday, I thought I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror today. Fortunately I found a photo of Tom Scully and taped it over my mirror.

The whole 'tanking' thing is just an absurd experience. I think The Doors wrote a song about it.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWjQ0fUknY0

Edited August 3, 2009 by Einstein

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

It'll be in the far back end of my mind when the up and coming list disappear into football folklore. I always consider where players came from. Or more speciically, where a premiership team came from. Whatever coach takes Melbourne all the way, be it DB or someone else, will have built up or inherited a super list. A la the Hawks, Saints and Lions... all of whom were HUGE beneficiaries of the draft.

I didn't say I'd be losing sleep over it, but I would have loved to have done it like the Cats, with all Father Son picks and a strong culture. Beggars can't be choosers though, and we've broken exactly zero rules.

[LITTLE STINGA 1]

Nash, not wanting to be cynical about your thread but every recent GF win has had some sort of extra benefit above and beyond the normal drafting processes, do you think any of their supporters believe their success was cheapened?

Hawthorn - Clearly tanked, sold off senior players for extra draft picks, played their kids and was rewared with Buddy and Roughhead

Geelong - Probably the only 'clean' team however their father/son selections more than made up for it.

Port Adelaide - Benefited from the generous concessions they received when they entered the AFL

West Coast - Got Judd via a pp and Cousins via father/son

Sydney - Zone selections and extra salary cap room

Brisbane - Zone selections, extra salary cap room, priority picks and were given the carcass of the Fitzroy Football Club to pick through

Essendon - Matty Lloyd was a gift for off loading 3 duds to Freo, they had their choice of the best underage talent before the draft.

On top of this St.Kilda, Bulldogs, Collingwood and Carlton have all strengthened their list by taking a dip at the well that is the pp system. Why should we feel bad about it?

Right on the money. Essendon also got Lucas before the draft didn't they? while we got Cockatto-Collins, doesn't seem fair.

[Nasher 33,607]

Not your best work Nasher.

Why? I'm not saying I agree with the above statement, it was just one that has been mentioned to me. I voted 'no'.

[Scully The Tank Engine 0]

I wouldn't have thought so. What we're doing is different from 'cheating', so no, I don't think it would. What about the Hawks?

I mean, If the Gold Coast win a flag in 2014 (which seems quite possible), then, I would think their supporters would be pretty brave to brag about it, considering the AFL has already pre-ordained them to be a powerhouse of the competition before they've even entered it..

You want to talk about fixing a situation to get a desireable result, then you don't need to look past Brisbane's 3 flags, and what the AFL are doing with the Gold Coast currently...

Edited August 4, 2009 by Scully The Tank Engine

[Redleg 39,998]

Yes, after living and breathing the MFC all of my life and waiting 45 years to see a Dees premiership, I can see myself at a Grand Final in the future watching the Dees playing their guts out for that flag, thinking oh a flag won't mean anything to me or my family, because we might have tanked a couple of games back in 09.

Then I will notice a few pigs flying across the MCG.

[Sir Why You Little 36,587]

Yes, after living and breathing the MFC all of my life and waiting 45 years to see a Dees premiership, I can see myself at a Grand Final in the future watching the Dees playing their guts out for that flag, thinking oh a flag won't mean anything to me or my family, because we might have tanked a couple of games back in 09.

Then I will notice a few pigs flying across the MCG.

Yes of course i wouldn't be able to party out in a few years because of last sundays Shame!!

I doubt ND would have done what Bails did last sunday.

We now know Dean Bailey wants to take this club all the way. Sunday was his "line in the Sand" game (our young talent almost buggered it up with their enthusiasm, but Sanity Prevailed)

Wonder whether Mike Sheahan will celebrate if we win a flag in a few years????

[Johnny Karate 559]

We've won 14 of the last 71 matches. We deserve a priority. It's not as if we're all of a sudden excellent and could easily succeed without a pp and are just throwing games.

[Real Demon 232]

We aren't cheating, just playing the cards that have been dealt!

Take Franklin and Roughead out of the Hawks team, and they don't win the flag last year...........do you think having them in the Hawks team cheapened their success.

That's potentially how important these picks are, and for a club that has been on struggle street for 2 years, it's a fair result.

The media circus about this whole debate is farcical, and as usual, we are a soft target.

[wisedog 350]

I'm slightly embarrassed about the way it's all happened, but I'm sure I'll feel better about it next season.

We may not have got the picks in that infamous Carlton game, but I enjoyed holding the moral high ground. That's gone now, but it's what had to be done. I think up until the Port Adelaide game, Bailey and Co were happy to ride out our luck, but that was the turning point.

The string of games against Sydney, Richmond and North has given the footy deptartment the perfect list management opportunity, but I wonder if they’ll be shamed into fielding a stronger side this week.

I can't wait to smash Fremantle and have a decent crack at Carlton and St Kilda... (Imagine the irony of beating Carlton.)

Edited August 4, 2009 by wisedog

[Sir Why You Little 36,587]

I can't wait to smash Fremantle and have a decent crack at Carlton and St Kilda... (Imagine the irony of beating Carlton.)

I don't want to beat Carlton till next year. With your Logic we would finish with 6 wins, & thus be a loser again.

Where is the joy in that?

[Einstein 1]

I can't wait to smash Fremantle and have a decent crack at Carlton and St Kilda... (Imagine the stupidity of beating Carlton.)

Edited for accuracy.

[wisedog 350]

I don't want to beat Carlton till next year. With your Logic we would finish with 6 wins, & thus be a loser again.

Where is the joy in that?

I didn;t make myself clear.

I meant I look forward to seeing us put up a fight against Carlton. Not winning, because I think that's beyond us.

[wisedog 350]

It would be tragic, twice being denied a priority pick by Carlton after they kept us out of the top 4 in 2006 (When they were wooden spooners).

[dee-luded 2,959]

Stynes signed those members in about 3 weeks - we also had a ridiculous amount of members pre-christmas.

I agree Watts played some part, but there has been an overwhelming positivty surrounding this club that has entered the fray since the Irishman took the helm.

I'm also not so sure that playing the youngsters is "list management" - they probably give us a better chance of winning!

And that confidance has come out of the Club bottoming out & rebuilding with The Best Kids in the land. With the new coaching team that has rebuilt the defence, & found us rookies like Wonnamirri, Jurrah, McKenzie.

And from a returning of the Good OL" Boys from the 80's, to straiten the listing ship & set the sails high into the wind.

Go DEES.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I'm slightly embarrassed about the way it's all happened, but I'm sure I'll feel better about it next season.

We may not have got the picks in that infamous Carlton game, but I enjoyed holding the moral high ground. That's gone now, but it's what had to be done. I think up until the Port Adelaide game, Bailey and Co were happy to ride out our luck, but that was the turning point.

The string of games against Sydney, Richmond and North has given the footy deptartment the perfect list management opportunity, but I wonder if they’ll be shamed into fielding a stronger side this week.

I can't wait to smash Fremantle and have a decent crack at Carlton and St Kilda... (Imagine the irony of beating Carlton.)

I feel sorry for Bailey, & the assistant Coaches, re the negative spin being put our way, as he's the one who's reputation is battered as a Coaches rep' goes.

He's an incredibly brave man, to risk it all, & committ to this rebuild.

He's putting his personal integrity on the line for our club & it's future.

[Demondeb 8]

If everyone will cast their minds back, we were in front at the final siren. So, we did win but just not in the normal way winning is seen. We got our desired result but they players certainly should consider that game a win and therefore keeping the "winning culture"advocates happy. I was, admittedly happy and sad at the same time when I should have been rejoicing in a Demon win..and then the mark being paid and the goal scored and a loss.. and the same thing..happy and sad..

I hate all this barracking against the club I have loved forever but we are not cheating. We are experimenting which we have done for most of the year and last year trying to find out if we have the cattle to go all the way. We have some of them but some do need to move on and this is DB's way of finding out which way they go.. on the truck to the "knackery "or into the field for another year and to await the prize "bull/s" to join the herd at the end of the road.

I will always buy a membership and fully support the club and the way they are taking care of things.

Not one single club, I am pretty confident in saying, would do any different to us should they be in our position and with GC and WS coming into the draft in the upcoming years. They would all take the priority pick gleefully and brag about it and would do all in their power to get it so it's highly hypocritical of those who are bagging us out for tanking.

Just hang loose...this is probably the last game we have to hold our breath and hope for a competitive loss. Another last gasp kick would be hard on the heart but would make for a game worth watching.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Demondeb