WELCOME TO DEMONLAND - JORDIE MCKENZIE

[e25 5]

So we're to assume that all your opinions are educated?

Most. But it feels like the stupidity level on this forum has sky rocketed all of a sudden.

I can handle the stupidity when its not discussed in such a serious manner.

But regardless of my arrogant opinions, I've wasted enough time on this forum recently. Its time to knuckle down & get some real work done before xmas.

And this forum is of little interest to me during the season, so I guess I'll argue with you all at the end of next season.

hasta luego

[e25 5]

Are you giving us TheShaft?

not quite mate, just taking a sabbatical.

But this thread was the catalyst.

[Mick 1]

I've gotten used to a lot of uneducated opinions on this forum, but this thread takes the cake.

Have fun guys, see you at the end of next season.

Agree - so disappointing to see people writing off draft picks because of the type of players selected.

Would you prefer Nick Smith or Simon Buckley? Luke Livingston or Wonnaeamirri? It's a joke to say we should have taken someone tall, with 'x factor' or some other general criteria based on a completely uneducated view (and yes I include watching a two minute video clip or a single game as uneducated).

Obviously we all like to see an exciting player with huge upside on the list but you can't criticise the recruiting staff when they don't deliver. Their responsibility is to build the best list possible with the best players available, not pluck some tall african american ex-nfl wide receiver who could be anything (or nothing) to generate a few weeks of excitement for bored fans over the summer months

Good luck Jordie and GO DEMONS!

[montasaurus 0]

Most. But it feels like the stupidity level on this forum has sky rocketed all of a sudden.

I can handle the stupidity when its not discussed in such a serious manner.

But regardless of my arrogant opinions, I've wasted enough time on this forum recently. Its time to knuckle down & get some real work done before xmas.

And this forum is of little interest to me during the season, so I guess I'll argue with you all at the end of next season.

hasta luego

But it feels like the stupidity level on this forum has sky rocketed all of a sudden?? you mean those who have different views to yours?

Don't fall when your getting off your high horse and returning to work!

[e25 5]

Agree - so disappointing to see people writing off draft picks because of the type of players selected.

Would you prefer Nick Smith or Simon Buckley? Luke Livingston or Wonnaeamirri? It's a joke to say we should have taken someone tall, with 'x factor' or some other general criteria based on a completely uneducated view (and yes I include watching a two minute video clip or a single game as uneducated).

Obviously we all like to see an exciting player with huge upside on the list but you can't criticise the recruiting staff when they don't deliver. Their responsibility is to build the best list possible with the best players available, not pluck some tall african american ex-nfl wide receiver who could be anything (or nothing) to generate a few weeks of excitement for bored fans over the summer months

Good luck Jordie and GO DEMONS!

gotta 2nd that before i'm off. Nice one mick.

[mo64 5,880]

Agree - so disappointing to see people writing off draft picks because of the type of players selected.

Would you prefer Nick Smith or Simon Buckley? Luke Livingston or Wonnaeamirri? It's a joke to say we should have taken someone tall, with 'x factor' or some other general criteria based on a completely uneducated view (and yes I include watching a two minute video clip or a single game as uneducated).

No I'd prefer a Dean Cox over an Andre Giafagna, or a Ben Rutten over a Jace Bode.

[montasaurus 0]

Agree - so disappointing to see people writing off draft picks because of the type of players selected.

It's a joke to say we should have taken someone tall, with 'x factor' or some other general criteria based on a completely uneducated view (and yes I include watching a two minute video clip or a single game as uneducated).

Maybe we should have taken strawnie. Has the x factor, big unit that plays forward! I'll take a hard running midfielder any day over a bloke who may not even be able play.

[e25 5]

But it feels like the stupidity level on this forum has sky rocketed all of a sudden?? you mean those who have different views to yours?

Don't fall when your getting off your high horse and returning to work!

Its alright, I get up & down so much I keep a ladder handy.

And no, its not the opinions that differ to mine, I'm open to that, its the nonsensical arguments that do my head in.

If someone makes a logical argument I'll listen to it, whether I agree or not.

That's the difference.

Like mick has just argued, and then had mo64 come back at him with the same argument, proving mick's point.

Its utter stupidity to debate this sort of thing.

So, like flares & st.kilda's premiership hopes, I'm out.

[Mick 1]

No I'd prefer a Dean Cox over an Andre Giafagna, or a Ben Rutten over a Jace Bode.

Exactly...you'd prefer the better player as I would. Thanks for backing up my point!

[mo64 5,880]

Exactly...you'd prefer the better player as I would. Thanks for backing up my point!

No I'm not. They're only better players in hindsight. Cox and Rutten were just speculative rookie listings who have turned out to be AA players in key positions.

The point I'm making is that I would have liked to have seen us make a speculative choice on a tall with our 1st pick in the Rookie draft.

[H_T 3,049]

No I'm not. They're only better players in hindsight. Cox and Rutten were just speculative rookie listings who have turned out to be AA players in key positions.

The point I'm making is that I would have liked to have seen us make a speculative choice on a tall with our 1st pick in the PSD.

191/193cm tall enough Mo?

[montasaurus 0]

191/193cm tall enough Mo?

I think he is talking about 1st rookie pick. You would be mad if you were not happy with Jurrah

[old55 23,687]

No I'm not. They're only better players in hindsight. Cox and Rutten were just speculative rookie listings who have turned out to be AA players in key positions.

The point I'm making is that I would have liked to have seen us make a speculative choice on a tall with our 1st pick in the PSD.

I gotta agree with the man "that's a sex machine to all the chicks". Mo's post is a new zenith of crazy.

I guessing you've got a Ph.D in Hindsight.

Want someone taller or more specualtive than Jurrah?

[mo64 5,880]

I gotta agree with the man "that's a sex machine to all the chicks". Mo's post is a new zenith of crazy.

I guessing you've got a Ph.D in Hindsight.

Want someone taller or more specualtive than Jurrah?

My bad. We are talking about Jordie McKenzie, so I meant the rookie draft.

[old55 23,687]

My bad. We are talking about Jordie McKenzie, so I meant the rookie draft.

The fact remains that we've taken a speculative tall with our first available pick - how many would be enough for you?

How about we wait until Sibosado wins the Coleman at Freo before we hang, draw and quarter BP?

BP said we targetted inside mids at the ND but missed out on Redden at 35, the strategy to pick McKenzie and Healey has been consistent.

[jacey 333]

No I'd prefer a Dean Cox over an Andre Giafagna, or a Ben Rutten over a Jace Bode.

Wow. hindsight. good job. U pick from the cream of the crop and judge it with duds. I can play that game too.

No doubt a promising tall in Lachlan McKinnon is better then a midget Aaron Davey.

How about the exciting Alex Lee who's much better then that plodder Weagle Priddis.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I'm not so sure about playing it safe with Mckenzie, he has missed a lot of footy (injured since 07) therefore there still could be a very good player in the making.

But if i am reading into this MO64 you would have prefered if the 1st rookie pick was more high risk/ High reward tall? I was on the Sibasado wagon prior to the draft but after taking Jurrah that spot on the list is taken. So therefore I think we will have to trust the club that Mckenzie was the best available player for us. Who knows what he could develop into with a full year of footy under his belt.

I really believe Sibasado will be nothing more then a side show (a poor mans richo) which we don't need at the club now we have a better player in jurrah

With regard to rookie listing of players, every rookie has a high degree of speculation about whether they will or wont make it. As a consequence I dont believe there is logical basis to declare one selection "SAFE" as against another.

Also I am not sure what posters actual glean from a youtube clip on a player. However it is seemingly more than what is actually factual and the truth. Some forget that the youtube clip are only highlights and not lowlights of a player and have often been compiled to "package" the best aspects of a potential player.

However, in regard to Sibasado and McKenzie i have seen the terms used as "prodigious talent" and "elite" from posters who could moonlight as there managers. Clearly these players are neither and have major question marks over their attributes for AFL. They may make it in some form or other but there is a very good chance they will not make it all. Neither is a safe pick.

And I am not sure what the love affair is with Sibosado. While I have not seen him play beyond the youtube clips, I have spoken with a number of VFL watchers whose opinion I value and trust that suggests for whatever talents he has and they have a big question mark, is that he has a sub standard work ethic, poor endurance and lack of off field focus. The descriptions gave the impression that he makes Newton look like a dedicated hard working focussed player without the same talent. Some high reward. And we already have Jurrah through the PSD for speculation.

[mo64 5,880]

Wow. analysis from hindsight. good job. I can play that game too.

No doubt a promising tall in Lachlan McKinnon is better then a midget Aaron Davey.

How about the exciting Alex Lee who's much better then that plodder Weagle Priddis.

That was the point I was making in response to Mick, who I wrongfully thought was making comparisons in hindsight.

As Rhino pointed out, rookie selections are mostly speculative, so why not punt on a player that may address our long term needs. And I would have thought that another ruckman or key forward are both long term necessaties.

And how do you make an assessment of "best available" when you are talking about rookie picks, when in reality they're are pick 90ish in the draft.

[e25 5]

That was the point I was making in response to Mick, who I wrongfully thought was making comparisons in hindsight.

As Rhino pointed out, rookie selections are mostly speculative, so why not punt on a player that may address our long term needs. And I would have thought that another ruckman or key forward are both long term necessaties.

And how do you make an assessment of "best available" when you are talking about rookie picks, when in reality they're are pick 90ish in the draft.

I just gotta say, mo64 specifically shouldn't be copping any abuse for viewing his opinions, when quite a few others were saying the same thing.

At least he's big enough to admit where he sees he's wrong.

(and yes, i know my earlier post was kinda abusive)

CARN THE DEES IN 09

See you guys at the game

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

As Rhino pointed out, rookie selections are mostly speculative, so why not punt on a player that may address our long term needs. And I would have thought that another ruckman or key forward are both long term necessaties.

We have LT needs in the midfield which are not addressed as well. However with what we have on our books I am not sure how many rucks/ KPs we realistically need. Granted many of the options are not preferable.

If we took a ruck this year, he risks being behind Jamar, PJ, Meesen, Spencer, Martin and whoever Casey has on its books. Not too much development in the VFL 2s on the bench. If you leave it a year, one of PJ/Jamar may not be around, Spencer develops and get promoted and then we can rookie another tall.

[hoopla 418]

Agree - so disappointing to see people writing off draft picks because of the type of players selected.

Are you suggesting that the type of player selected is irrelevant?

Tell me a team which has won the premiership in the last 50 years without a good strong spine. The fact is that of the 20 players on our list below 22 years of age, only Jack Watts, Liam Jurrah ( who is listed at 188cm) Juice Newton and Stef Martin are more than 192 cm. We are supposed to building the nucleous of a premiership team. We face a compromised draft during the next 3 years.

As I said before we are only going to need McKenzie and Healy if all of the midfielders on our list fail. But if just one of our young talls fails - we'll struggle to put a balanced team on the park. Doesn't the club have faith in the nine young midfielders it has selected over the last two years?

If you don't like Sibosado ( who I've seen dominate a game) - why not young Bock or Browne or Gaertner or Shepheard. They would have added something we haven't got already.

Casey won't need many midfielders on their list next year - but they'll sure need a few big men.

[montasaurus 0]

I can't understand why we are debating this.

The draft is done, good luck to Jordie end of story. Re KPP out of 6 picks 2 were KPF, I think that's enough for one year as they take longer to develop genarally. so as I stated earlier with a sibosado/Debore double I really think the MFC got it right taking Jurrah and McKenzie over these two.

[TheVoice 33]

Tell me a team which has won the premiership in the last 50 years without a good strong spine. The fact is that of the 20 players on our list below 22 years of age, only Jack Watts, Liam Jurrah ( who is listed at 188cm) Juice Newton and Stef Martin are more than 192 cm. We are supposed to building the nucleous of a premiership team. We face a compromised draft during the next 3 years.

As I said before we are only going to need McKenzie and Healy if all of the midfielders on our list fail. But if just one of our young talls fails - we'll struggle to put a balanced team on the park. Doesn't the club have faith in the nine young midfielders it has selected over the last two years?

If you don't like Sibosado ( who I've seen dominate a game) - why not young Bock or Browne or Gaertner or Shepheard. They would have added something we haven't got already.

Exactly where I am coming from Hoopla. I have nothing against Jordie McKenzie but it is fairly obvious where our major deficiencies lie. What KPP do we

have at the moment that can take a game by the throat and win it off his own boot, Bate? Miller? Johnson? Sure we have picked up Watts and Jurrah but

excuse me for not wanting to throw all my eggs in one basket and base all our rookie selections on these two guys being able to cut the mustard.

Why go for more midfielders when we already have plenty of young mids on our primary list who we need to develop over the next few years.

Yes my experience of Sibosado is his highlights clip off youtube, but surely all you educated toffs who have taken the time to respond to this uneducated

topic can see the basis of the argument, that surely it is more value to our clubs current predicament, to be investing speculative rookie selections on KPP's

who show some promise. If Sibosado is in reality no good, then as Hoopla said, invest in another promising tall forward who may develop into something.

[Nasher 33,617]

Exactly where I am coming from Hoopla. I have nothing against Jordie McKenzie but it is fairly obvious where our major deficiencies lie. What KPP do we have at the moment that can take a game by the throat and win it off his own boot?

A KPP who can win the game off his own boot is so freakin' rare, you're never ever going to get him at the 80th+ position in the draft. It's why the likes of Roughead, Franklin, Nick Riewoldt and Brown (and Watts) were all taken very early in their drafts. The vast majority of other 'good' forwards are assisted by dominant midfields. Teams with mediocre forward lines can win flags -- Geelong and West Coast are cases in point. I don't think I've ever seen a team with a shit midfield win a flag. In 2008, West Coast and Melbourne had shit midfields, and we all saw how that worked out.

We've taken two very talented forwards in Watts and Jurrah as high priorities in the drafts. If we come out in a few years time and still have no gun key forwards, it will be due to sheer bad luck and nothing else. We've got our gun key forwards. We need to stack up with an elite (I'd settle for competent) midfield now.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Are you suggesting that the type of player selected is irrelevant?

Tell me a team which has won the premiership in the last 50 years without a good strong spine. The fact is that of the 20 players on our list below 22 years of age, only Jack Watts, Liam Jurrah ( who is listed at 188cm) Juice Newton and Stef Martin are more than 192 cm. We are supposed to building the nucleous of a premiership team. We face a compromised draft during the next 3 years.

As I said before we are only going to need McKenzie and Healy if all of the midfielders on our list fail. But if just one of our young talls fails - we'll struggle to put a balanced team on the park. Doesn't the club have faith in the nine young midfielders it has selected over the last two years?

If you don't like Sibosado ( who I've seen dominate a game) - why not young Bock or Browne or Gaertner or Shepheard. They would have added something we haven't got already.

Casey won't need many midfielders on their list next year - but they'll sure need a few big men.

Geelong 2007 (Good defence, No standout KPF). Hawthorn (Buddy and Roughie up forward, competent defence).

Where are premierships won these days? Through the midfield. Given where the game is going in speed and mobility how many KPFs/KPBs can you reassonably have in a side? I am sure the MFC has faith in what it has recruited in the midfield but is sensible enough to realise that not all of them will make the grade.

BTW, last time I looked Bate, Miller and Morton were all 192cm and above and all play forward. Jurrah is 191cm.