Little Goffy

Well, I'm not going to claim great expertise, but the guys I particularly like from the mix of write-ups include - Whitefield, Grundy andToumpas (the 'well duh' group) Wines Vlastuin Stringer Menzel Kennedy Broomhead Membrey Wright Oh, and Viney and Daniher of course. It'll be interesting to see which turns out to be the bigger steal of those two. This is not an order of merit, just a bunch of names I reckon 'sound right'. I guess they are roughly in order of confidence.

Meanwhile, GWS can't find the cash to keep Jonaton Giles, seriously? Tom Scully is the best double agent football has ever seen.

I think we should play hardball and talk them down to pick 4. Honestly, I'm a little alarmed at the idea of us giving 3 AND 13 in exchange for a minidraft and pick 20. Do we seriously think there aren't three players in this draft who could even get close to Hogan? Because that is what that trade is saying. Unless we think there's no difference between 13 and 20 in this draft? Sigh, I just want the anxiety over, collect the solid midfielders available (or the opportunistic slider) and roll on. I'm not that impressed by Wellingham - he's a good midfielder, not a potential gun. I don't want to pay too much for Dawes - I'm simply not convinced he's that great. I don't want to get speculative about 17 year old players. Basically, I don't see much out there worth messing with our first round picks for. Maybe I'm just fatigued when it comes to anything that sounds like trying to outsmart ourselves.

The statistician in me wants to start a chart of the amount of 'noise' first about Jack Viney and then about Billy Stretch. Simple line graph of 'post per month'. Billy may actually be ahead in terms of the number of posts this far ahead of drafting, because his name was originally mentioned and got a few comments way back when conversation was also beginning about Viney. If all goes to plan (HA HA HA HA HA, at Melbourne?) then Stretch Jnr could be arriving just in time to play his whole career in finals! I think I only said that in bitter irony at how once upon a time we all thought (imagined?) Viney would be the bonus gun midfielder to add to our stocks when we were already competitive.

This time ast year I thought something like Dunn or Bate for Hansen, as all were not quite 'doing it' for their clubs at the time. Not sure how the trade balance would be now, or what sweeteners would be needed. Assuming the prevailing story is true and Bate is likely headed to the dogs, maybe what we get from them plus our existing third rounder would do the job? Like last year, I wouldn't mind Hansen as a role-player, and he'd come cheaper than Dawes in both picks and dollars.

Jack Viney has had a bigger pre-release marketing presence than iPhone. This thread brings us to the level of camping out the front of the store. Here I am. Anyone got a deck chair?

[based only on reading of profiles and phantom drafts and the like, so pardon me] My standing position is that we have an opportunity to use this draft to completely reform our midfield, turn it from shallow and filled out with not-quite-AFL-level ability, to deep and particularly powerful in the contests. I would be thrilled if we could go 3. Toumpas 4. Wines 13. Vlastuin 26 Viney That might be ahead of the rank for Wines, but I think he is right on the 'needs' and someone we can bank as a definite good player. Vlastuin just completes a set, but pick 13 will be fascinating - a great position to be in to 'catch the slider', of which there are a few possibilities lik Stringer and Menzel. As for remaining trades, I would hope that the balance of what we get for Rivers, Moloney and any other transfers would be sufficient to trade for Dawes. Later in the draft, I would like to grab one of the big keyforwards currently doing very well in the state leagues, there's a few around. I don't have unrealistic expectations of them but like the thought of having that backup of someone who can at least provide a contested target. Then, experimental players - high-risk high-reward. I actually don't mind at all if the later stages of the draft are used for a high 'churn-rate'. Let's say we try a kid who definitely doesn't make it, they are gone again in two or three years, we pick again. Or, we can pick guys who will 'just not quite' make it, persevere for five years before finally cutting them. The first scenario actually meas we have had an extra 'attempt' in the time that the second scenario plays out. Another way to put it is, over an eight year period, would you take one 'Simon Godfrey' types or three attempts at finding a Wonaeamirri type that realy commits and becomes elite? Also, I really don't care much for the mini-draft. Wy spend a top-5 pick this year to get a top-5 pick next year, when you also have to consider the risk that they will slide or others improve between now and Nov 2013? Makes no sense - there is no return on investment unless the kid is really incredible.

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Sounds like he doesn't want to be jerked around, spend two years with a meaningless 'franchise' club, and then go through this entire process again to try to get back to the Demons. It also sounds like something you'd only say if you knew you were definitely coming to Melbourne anyway. He must have some kind of inside contact of some sort.

Fits the criteria of 'driven to be the best football he can be'. Would be a useful addition, in practical terms. I'd the thrilled if we got him, and surely with the sheer volume of movement out of our club, whether with handshakes or arse-kickings on the way out, we could find an equivalent offer for Richmond?

I've been raising this issue every few weeks for about three months. To recap - 1. By allowing clubs to recruit players outside the exchange process and not giving up any draft picks of their own, the FA system creates a 'super-incentive' to recruit through this method. How much would you pay extra to get a bonus first round draft pick? 2. The wealthier and better resourced a football club is, the more desirable they are as a destination, obviously. In a player's mind, how much pay would you be willing do give up for an extra $100,000 each year spent on your development? 3. This end result means that the less well resourced clubs actually need to pay more through their salary cap amounts to retain players targeted by wealthier clubs, meaning that over the medium to long term it will actually be the clubs LOSING players who find themselves under salary cap pressure. In effect, it costs them more to retain an 'equivalent' playing list. 4. As the process compounds, the stronger cubs increasingly dominate the upper half of the ladder, and weaker clubs spend more time at the bottom. Which of course creates a whole additional incentive for players to leave the weaker clubs, and a downward spiral develops. Basically, the free agency rules as they stand are just about guaranteed to wedge apart the gap between wealthier and poorer clubs, and that widening will proceed faster and faster over time. Guaranteed. So, Melbourne has to get two things right, and fast. 1 - get that footy department well resourced and well run 2 - go hard at free agency ourselves, to get the maximum advantage before the rules are corrected (hopefully they will, I'm not keen on a dysfunctional league)

Sigh, the generalisation is just sloppy, he even included the win over Essendon as a season lowlight, by implication. Too cheap to bother saying something particular, just 'nyah nyah suck'. Plenty of people on here who can do that, he's getting good coin to do a job many of us would love, and being pathetically lazy, that's what bugs me.

News just in - 'Brock Mclean a bit of a boofhead'. Close thread?

Hmm... if I recall correctly, Billy has won the B&F in every year of junior football of his life. Now, under 12s B&F isn't a major award, but ALL of them from zygotic mitosis level to under 15s would suggest at least some potential! :D Looking at the images from the articles, I have a sneaking suspicion that he wants to be the very best, like no-one ever was.

West Coast has 12 'first 22' players aged 25 or over, and that is not counting injured guys like LeCras. 12 experienced players who played at least most of the season, quite a few of whom were there for the last premiership and it includes a sixth-time and a fourth-time All-Australian. Adelaide's count of 25-and-over players who played all or close to all of the season is 11, and included gun mids, key forwards, Melbourne had ONE guy over 25 play all games, thank you Jared Rivers, and only a few get close to a full season, like Syliva (17), Dunn (18), Magner (17) and MacDonald (19). None of those were exactly tearing the field apart. So alas, any comparison with the Eagles or the Crows is not really going to work. Their story is of a season or two wih injuries, disruption and poor form, and then regaining the mature players and refreshing their form for another crack, backed by a few good draft selections to fill out the team. Those clubs have not been through a rebuild. Imagine a scenario where, for Melbourne in about 2009, each of Yze, Robertson, Neitz, Brown, White, McDonald, Green, Bruce, Johnstone and Whelan had all had a completely uninjured season and had a solid run of good form. I guess there's two points I'm making - First, we are rebuilding from as 'scratch' as it gets and there is no real comparison with clubs like West Coast or Adelaide, or even Hawthorn, I would say. Second, once you get a solid core of high-quality mature players into your team, you can stay competitive for a long, long time, and a good run with injury and one 'bonus' year of good drafting (picking up a star like Hawthorn did with Rioli or Geelong did with Selwood) and you can push up to the next level and be a true champion team.

The gain was a one or two year advance on the draft picks, and presumably some salary cap space saved. The loss was experienced players of varying value. Given that it isn't even possible to give a decisive call one way or the other in hindsight, where's the value in trying to second guess the decisions made at the time?

I was sure this was going to be about a Cylon-Human hybrid. Definitely draft if available. ACL injury, test, expected to play. But HUGE credits to WJ if the title really is a reference to the HG Wells 'World State'.

New Zealand isn't exactly a horror flight, not much more trouble than crossing the Nullabor, don't even need a visa. If the Saints get to play two games a year against out-of-state teams it will be a big financial win. Only question is slotting in enough recovery time - particularly if it played on the constantly moving ANZAC Day. Maybe one day we'll have a split round themed on international games? Play in Kyoto or Kunming, take an extra week off afterwards to recover.

Is it time now to speak his name again? It's only been ten years. Shane Woewodin. A midfielder ahead of his time in training effort, known for intelligently targeting relevant and practical strength, who excelled beyond his 'natural talent'. Then coached very successfully at the state level with East Fremantle, and has for a few years now as midfield coach at Brisbane overseen the progress of guys like Redden, Rockliff and so forth, a few of whom were later picks partly on account of fitness and commitment questions. I'd love to have him back at the club, for all the right professional reasons, with the 'prodigal return' a bonus.

Right, here's my shot - LIST TRANSFORMATION Four ready to go mids early in the draft (eg. Toumpas, Wines, Vlastuin, Viney) A couple of state-league KPF late in the draft who at least can be counted on to provide a contest, like Luccon, Coleman or Duffy. A collection of agile high-potential picks late and in the rookie draft, will with fun names as a bonus. Such as Irra, Raikiwasa, Tipungwuti. A good hunt in the free agency market, especially for rebounding defenders with a mature mind and solid skills, of whom there are a couple. Almost as important is the sheer extent of the cleanout - it has been made pretty clear that there is going to be minimal if any tolerance of players who are not committed to being fully professional, and that a professional attitude willbe expected of all new players coming in. With a turnover approaching a quarter of the list, you can be sure that the culture will taake a shock. Hopefully it will be a huge mental relief for those at the club who really are committed - they can stop taking passengers with them every time they hit a session or run onto the field. Nothing supports motivation better than knowing others are with you giving the effort.

Makes sense, but it is Davey's call of course. I imagine the club would be comfortable letting him go. I so much look forward to the time when we have even a few players who are consistenty contenders for the best and fairest, instead of the string of one or two year wonders that pepper out honour board at the moment. At least Nathan Jones has shown a picture of consistency and progress through his career. That's the kind of thing I want noted at the end of year functions.

Actually, I think the exit of Moloney, and the hard line being taken with young players who wont put in the full effort required, would be the other major plus. I worry that quite a few possible ring-ins might take a 'wait and see' approach for now, but the club is making a big statement about changing the culture and ramping up the professionalism. Combine that with good money on the flattering justifcation that 'we are looking to attract good professionals who will contribute to a culture of excellence, and willing to pay for it'. I think we'd have a case.

Wait a minute... Todd Viney's coaching career goes Melbourne assistant coach 2000 A few years coaching Moama Hawthorn from 2005-2008 Adelaide 2009-10 So, just guessing, but those last two positions in particular suggest he's been around clubs which got their recruiting strategies very right. He then came to Melbourne specifically in a list development role, because that was where his coaching interests were, and then after a year stepped into a senior list management role when Barry Prendergast moved on. He's not there as some kind of 'oh, here's something for ya, big fella'. I recognise that the situation with the father-son recruiting is not ideal, but it is far from a crisis. Unless GWS offer Todd a job in exchange for agreeing to let Jack go to them. Edit: As a side note, HR style psych tests are garbage - easily gamed, hopelessly unreliable, and at best can only report on a persons perception of themselves. As such, they inherently favour the arrogant. They are a hurdle requirement that helps to keep management positions reserved for self-important gits.

Soidee, can I suggest, instead of starting forum topics, if you really feel upset and need to talk to someone, they will always listen; Lifeline 13 11 14

Robert Walls knows very little of great use. I've seen his CV. He was big in the 80s, I hear? Then he spent ten years coaching teams that failed, and for the last ten years he's done nothing but state the obvious or engage in trivial, unaccountable sniping and list-making like a twelve year old. I think Carlton might be making a mistake in sacking Ratten, after all, the Blues have managed to pummel a few top sides this year. But there is a clear problem with players not being accountable and lacking work ethic on field. Happy to be 'special' rather than 'professional', they're the passengers that Ratten mentioned earlier in the week. But at the same time, it is his responsibility to bring them into line. On that record, I would suggest that Ratten would be a terrible match for our list, another one which suffers from high apparent talent but big gaps in work ethic and accountability. Ratten's results are about comparable with Daniher's from 2001-2007, except Ratten had a much stronger list and much better facilities and support. Final thought, Sylvia's Dukes - you say you want Melbourne to be professional, but advocate sacking a new coach with two years left on his contract for an opportunistic grab at a coach who had five years with a highly talented young list and managed to win one final in that time.