Well, Round 6 is over - and so is Baileys deadline for the current mainstays

[heartbeatstrue 57]

Bailey..for those who just dont get it.. has allowed the pretenders to hang themselves.

And that, correctly, is about the only positive so far about Bailey's coaching and the first 6 rounds. Maybe the disaster we had to have. Hopefully there's more to Bailey, which hopefully will start to emerge now. But that's asking for a lot of hope in a rather hopeless situation right now.

[drdrake 3,045]

Any football follower with any knowledge of the game knows our list is in serious trouble. We have 4 players between the age of 24-29 that are able to play well at this level (Bruce, Green, Robbo, Davey)the rest wouldn't be in any other teams best 22, three of them are approaching 30. We still have Yze, Neitz, White, Holland, McDonald all over 30yo 2 of these should not be on our list and by years end 3 maybe 4 will retire. We have a gulf between our young players and our older players that have been good for us but are at the end of their AFL life.

Besides Rivers we have no KPP that are AFL standard. Carroll is Average at best but at least he is honest, Miller same. We are developing Frawley, Newton, Martin, Zomer but still that is only four players.

The highlight of this year is Aussie a rookie and Morton. Bailey has to play the young players because the players that have been around for 8+ years have served us well but will not be a part of a successful future.

[Weedster 174]

But Bailey claims to be an empowerer, to give players the opportunity to input, to EMPOWER!

Bailey can't lead, can't coach. Full stop!

The proof is in the pudding...unfortunately

[titan_uranus 22,631]

Messen doesnt deserve a run, he was grossly poor IMO when i watched him against a weak bendigo side.

I saw this on TV too, he really was shocking to be honest. I know its early days yet, but unfortunately I think this experiment is unlikely to pay off. Hopefully though PJ gets himself right soon, Jake Spencer develops at Sandy/Sandy reserves and then next year maybe add Naitanui to the list.

There will be no axeing despite the sixth round being reached. I'd expect a light buffing with a medium grade sandpaper would be the most we should expect. That said there ought to be room made for Whelan, Bate and Newton (to provide a tall forward option, which was sadly lacking today).

I haven't seen much of Newton, is he playing well in Sandy, because if he's not then he doesn't deserve a spot in the team.

[Pepe Dee Pew 0]

I think we will see Bailey try a few players. He can afford a real crap year in his first year. The heat gets turned up second and subsequent years.

Bails is just being smart. W

[Redleg 37,906]

Barry Hall has no more football skill then Brad Miller but was a top 5 player in the competition for awhile.

Oh dear!

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Oh dear!

Just be like comparing Judd to Godfrey.

[red&blue&true 0]

Oh dear!

Its true, at around the same age Hall was the writeoff thug being traded from St Kilda. Only thing he added to his game up there was discipline.

Miller has the capability to do it, but his deficiancy is what Hall has in abundance, Hunger to hurt people that get in his way and lack of real enjoyment (Killer instinct if you will) at going toe to toe with someone.. Carroll actually enjoys it, Campbell Brown enjoys it, Hall enjoys it.. maybe something that you can't learn just what i bracketed.. an instinct?..

He only goes half at it, he gets done for charging, cops 2 weeks yet that player is up a minute later. That aint gunna scare people away from getting in your hole next time, you dont see him crunch a bloke then go after another bloke before they can even think to remonstrate with him. He shows agression, but its faked.. not the real fire.

Few years ago, line in the sand match.. Vandaberg & Brown got angry they showed the competition the Hawks had that fire.

(The Hawks were absoloutly drubbed they both copped massive suspensions, but the message was out there - we'll snipe you first we're sick of it and angry and not going to be intimidated anymore)

Vandaberg was made the (role model) captain for the next generation of Hawks look at them now one of the hardest sides you'll see, this as much as their impressive young talent is the reason they are a flag chance, Clarkson loves it he wants his players "on the edge" and has publicly stated so.

The culture is now ingrained at the club despite probably their 3 TOUGHEST players (Hodge, Lewis, Brown) suspended in rnd1, they SMASHED US in the toughness stakes, thats how soft we are not surprising looking at who our "leaders" are.

And pretty sure Brown is in the leadership group down there and was AA last year.

Now look at our leaders. give them a rating out of 10 if you'd want them next to you in a brawl vs equal or superior forces, if we are looking at say a Brown or a Hall as a benchmark of 10.

Neitz - Long term injury, barring that hed probably in his final year rate around 8-9

Bruce - Threw a few slaps, before tappin you and tellin ya lets run buddy - 2

Robbo - Jumped into the group looking to do something that would be remembered, but lost his feet - no 2nd effort - 4

Miller - Show ponied he was tough and a big boy, but you always knew he wasnt going to hit you first and if he got on top in the fight hed just shake u a bit not hurt you - 5

JMAC - throws himself bravely in and fights with heart, but hes a small bugga - 5

Yze - Ran around the outside of the brawl getting in a few cheap kicks where he could - 2

Brock - would probably rate well, but for some reason having some fight and [censored] about you when the going gets tough, gets you kicked out of the leadership at MFC.

red&blue&true's choice for MFC players to stand beside him in a brawl vs superior forces

Carroll - He'd start the Brawl and finish it - 10.

Brock - Dont [censored] touch me im BROCK MCLEAN - 7

Jones - Fire, Heart, Anger, Youth, Agression - YEAH! - 8

Rivers - Doesnt desert his mates, got a wiry left hook on him - 7

Whelan - how scarey is this bloke, hes tough as nails and would keep comin back even if he copped a few - 9

White - Big bodied bloke thats dealt with pain for years, if his mates cared enuff to give a [censored] hed get in there too. - 6

Moral of the story - make the brawlers the leaders, let the kids know that the blokes leading them are willing to fight for them...

CULTURE. CHANGE IT. BRING BACK RODNEY GRINTER.

/end rant

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Hall was a very good footballer with outstanding potential at St Kilda. The Swans have built a premiership side around him. Miller may have subdued him in 1 or 2 games but he is not in the same orbit. Not even close.

And you clearly cant differentiate between what on field leadership is and what makes a tough footballer and what makes an undiscipline player to being a thug and a net drain and disservice to the team.

FWIW and its a little clue, Hall's hit on Staker was gutless, cheap and dishonest to his team. I can only think its too many violent video games that you enjoy that makes you want to naively and mystifyingly glorify such on field indiscretions that are the domain of the brainless and for the enjoyment of the LCD in society.

FWIW, the line of the sand was one of the most undisciplined and stupid on field acts you would care to see on the ground and it is no surprise the Hawks got no where doing it.

[red&blue&true 0]

Hall was a very good footballer with outstanding potential at St Kilda.

They said the same about Miller few years back

Hall was mud at St Kilda thats the truth.

The Swans have built a premiership side around him. Miller may have subdued him in 1 or 2 games but he is not in the same orbit. Not even close.

Thats right! because he doesnt breathe fire or play on the edge - he can mark, hes big, hes fast enough, his engine is good enough - His Kicking for goal probably isnt as good, nor his leading ability, but that CAN be taught if theres an opening at FF which there obviously is - Miller & Hall for that matter lack good general play awareness, which why playing him up the ground has always resulted in him looking clumsy. Keep it simple, lead mark, kick for goal - but can he breathe the fire for more then just the first 10mins after a rev up pre match??

Hes the biggest member of the leadership group out there, if the Swans copped a bad first quarter, Hall set the standard in roughing people up, bit of wrestling showing the team theres still fight and to not lie down, Miller doesnt do this at all

And you clearly cant differentiate between what on field leadership is and what makes a tough footballer and what makes an undiscipline player to being a thug and a net drain and disservice to the team.

Wrong. Halls presence in the forward line for the last 3 years in Sydney has been huge. Also Sydney dont cop a lot of sniping and you wouldnt accuse anyone of their list lacking toughness, if you think blokes dont play bigger and tougher when they have big tough blokes backing them up you have rocks in your head.

FWIW and its a little clue, Hall's hit on Staker was gutless, cheap and dishonest to his team. I can only think its too many violent video games that you enjoy that makes you want to naively and mystifyingly glorify such on field indiscretions that are the domain of the brainless.

No [censored] his hit on Staker was OVER the edge, and not on the edge, where he plays his best football - i dont glorify that at all, i glorify him for his previous 3 years, in which he has been agressive, scarey, landed multiple hard hits on people and missed 0 games through suspension, and as you stated had a premiership side built around him, You think Roos doesnt want him back? or his actions in 2008 diminish how valuable he was in the 2005 premiership and in 2006 making the GF if not in it.. Last year Hall dropped off.. so did the Swans.

What rubbish "violent video games" - "onfield discretions that are the domain of the brainless"

i am happy to glorify tough football from blokes that dont back down when someone gets in their face or gets a little physical.

But maybe we'll just stick with "fair play old chap"

[jacey 333]

Hall was mud at St Kilda thats the truth.

Absolut tripe.

Have a look back at Barry Hall's 1999, 2000, 2001 seasons.

Tell me those numbers are mud.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pg-sydn...-hall?year=1999

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

.......

i am happy to glorify tough football from blokes that dont back down when someone gets in their face or gets a little physical.

But maybe we'll just stick with "fair play old chap"

Thanks for validating my concerns. You really dont know what tough football is.

In fact your comparison with Miller and Hall establishes that gap even further.

The way you are going you would probably stuff up the fair play old chap routine.

Amazing.

[Goodvibes 3,596]

FWIW CC suggested at the after-match function yesterday that a review would be undertaken after round 7.

[red&blue&true 0]

Thanks for validating my concerns. You really dont know what tough football is.

I know that Carroll, Brock, Jones, Whelan and Rivers all play tougher football then our current leaders.

Obviously you don't! THATS AMAZING.

In fact your comparison with Miller and Hall establishes that gap even further.

Yeah Halls numbers in his final years at ST Kilda were alot better then remembered, but doesnt change the fact that if Miller played with more AGRO, he would be more effective, more inspiring, more of a leader then the clumsy dud thats only got an AFL career because our KPP recruiting has been terrible and he "trains well" WTF.

The way you are going you would probably stuff up the fair play old chap routine.

I nailed it.

[red&blue&true 0]

Have a look back at Barry Hall's 1999, 2000, 2001 seasons.

Tell me those numbers are mud.

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pg-sydn...-hall?year=1999

No they are actually pretty good.

[dee-luded 2,958]

Touche.

Too many posters are apologists for Bailey. (Sorry, 'Bails'.)

No, you've got it ass about, too many posters are apologists for Daniher & his onfield cronies.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I know that Carroll, Brock, Jones, Whelan and Rivers all play tougher football then our current leaders.

Obviously you don't! THATS AMAZING.

Yeah Halls numbers in his final years at ST Kilda were alot better then remembered, but doesnt change the fact that if Miller played with more AGRO, he would be more effective, more inspiring, more of a leader then the clumsy dud thats only got an AFL career because our KPP recruiting has been terrible and he "trains well" WTF.

I nailed it.

What you dont understand is the fundamental difference between being at the ball and hard at the man and your ranking of who you would want beside you in a brawl is irrelevant. Carroll struts the tough physical stuff buts makes basic dumb errors with the ball and when contesting that nullify and make silly any of his tough stuff. Although you are seem impressed by it. Is Gladiators more your measure?

Brock and Jones play contested football and are prepared to get in the thick of the contest (not the brawl and the fight). Rivers is probably the one of the best on our list because his judgement and defensive skills are excellent. He does not throw punches but makes his man accountable for when he goes for the ball and when he's got the ball. Whelan is hard at the contested ball but from acting tough in your definition got himself suspended for popping that peanut in Fevola.

So much for your comments on Hall! As for Miller, on three occassions he has been suspended for his "AGRO" and lack of judgment to the detriment of his career and the team. Each "AGRO" moment has been spectacularly stupid in that he gets himself suspended, gets he and his teammates distracted and gives away a free or 50 metres within the MFC defensive 50. Totally stupid but your impressed!

He is more inspiring in the leadership group because of his general work ethic, character and his normal attack on the contested ball. Not the physical stuff on an opposition player and getting in fights. It appeals to boofheads Nevertheless he is an ordinary footballer with limited football brain. How you could rank him next to Hall in any manner is perplexing at best?

[red&blue&true 0]

What you dont understand is the fundamental difference between being at the ball and hard at the man and your ranking of who you would want beside you in a brawl is irrelevant. Carroll struts the tough physical stuff buts makes basic dumb errors with the ball and when contesting that nullify and make silly any of his tough stuff. Although you are seem impressed by it. Is Gladiators more your measure?

No i do understand the difference, but i also understand that the only team that has won a premiership in the last 20 years without enforcers or players prepared to take an opponent out of the game at every available oppurtunity is probably the fluke years Adelaide in 97-and 98 got up.

Brock and Jones play contested football and are prepared to get in the thick of the contest (not the brawl and the fight). Rivers is probably the one of the best on our list because his judgement and defensive skills are excellent. He does not throw punches but makes his man accountable for when he goes for the ball and when he's got the ball. Whelan is hard at the contested ball but from acting tough in your definition got himself suspended for popping that peanut in Fevola.

No again you mistake what i want - i dont want players acting tough. thats the problem, i want them to be tough. Know they are tough, know their teammates are tough, Brock & Jones are exactly the sort of players i want across every line, my points are valid, they are better leaders then the ones we have - the barroom brawl scenario was a bit tounge in cheek, and while football isnt brawling and cheap shots, they are contests that can develop during games, especially the ones that really matter like GF's - when the opposition have players prepared to do it, and we dont we are screwed.

So much for your comments on Hall!

- his presence on the football field is a huge part of his game - FWIW i think Millers a dud, but could contribute to the side if he chooses to play an enforcer role for the team - note above every single premiership side in the last 20 years having them.

As for Miller, on three occassions he has been suspended for his "AGRO" and lack of judgment to the detriment of his career and the team. Each "AGRO" moment has been spectacularly stupid in that he gets himself suspended, gets he and his teammates distracted and gives away a free or 50 metres within the MFC defensive 50. Totally stupid but your impressed!

He was also reported a few times coming off the line when we were "challenging" in the ND years.. And honestly thats the best hes ever looked in red & blue on field. Pickett was also recruited, why you think this was? ND and every other "boofhead" that follows football knows you need these kinda blokes that some consider thugs to win flags.

He is more inspiring in the leadership group because of his general work ethic, character and his normal attack on the contested ball. Not the physical stuff on an opposition player and getting in fights. It appeals to boofheads Nevertheless he is an ordinary footballer with limited football brain. How you could rank him next to Hall in any manner is perplexing at best?

Oh great, we have a training coach thats a good guy in the leadership group at the MFC

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

No i do understand the difference, but i also understand that the only team that has won a premiership in the last 20 years without enforcers or players prepared to take an opponent out of the game at every available oppurtunity is probably the fluke years Adelaide in 97-and 98 got up.

No again you mistake what i want - i dont want players acting tough. thats the problem, i want them to be tough. Know they are tough, know their teammates are tough, Brock & Jones are exactly the sort of players i want across every line, my points are valid, they are better leaders then the ones we have - the barroom brawl scenario was a bit tounge in cheek, and while football isnt brawling and cheap shots, they are contests that can develop during games, especially the ones that really matter like GF's - when the opposition have players prepared to do it, and we dont we are screwed.

- his presence on the football field is a huge part of his game - FWIW i think Millers a dud, but could contribute to the side if he chooses to play an enforcer role for the team - note above every single premiership side in the last 20 years having them.

He was also reported a few times coming off the line when we were "challenging" in the ND years.. And honestly thats the best hes ever looked in red & blue on field. Pickett was also recruited, why you think this was? ND and every other "boofhead" that follows football knows you need these kinda blokes that some consider thugs to win flags.

Oh great, we have a training coach thats a good guy in the leadership group at the MFC

Your understanding of what wins flags is also off beam. Teams win flags because they have the best players who can perform in finals pressure and win contested ball in tough accountable football. Tough football is at the ball and the contest. Thats how you intimidate. Not at the man. Very few enforcers have won flags. By the way premierships are never won by flukes let alone back to back flukes.

I would not go on about Hall. You have shown yourself up already there enough. If Miller is a dud then he aint going to feature in a premiership side. Miller has not performed consistently since 2003 and we did not challenge then. He is no value when he gets reported and suspended. He has not got the brains or ability to play "tough". Pickett was picked up to win the hard contested ball. He is hard at the contest ....when he gets there but clearly boofheads treasure the cheap and gutless shirtfronts. At his best Pickett won games from his line breaking run and great ball skills....not because he was a thug. He was recruited by various clubs for his football skill not his thuggery which dertracted from his contribution to the team.

[red&blue&true 0]

Your understanding of what wins flags is also off beam. Teams win flags because they have the best players who can perform in finals pressure and win contested ball in tough accountable football. Tough football is at the ball and the contest. Thats how you intimidate. Not at the man.

No.. players never get bullied sorry your so correct.

I suppose next you'll inform me how useless sledging is - clearly abusing people has no place on a football field, not fair game to get inside your opponents head

Very few enforcers have won flags. By the way premierships are never won by flukes let alone back to back flukes.

Its no wonder you dont quote, because you like to twist words, i said i can only think of 1 side in the last 20 years that have won flags WITHOUT enforcers.

Adelaide didnt finish top 4 either year. They got beaten in finals in 98 (by us!) and through the weirdass finals system were allowed to keep going and North kicked somethin like 2.12 in the 2nd quarter in the GF - if any team has ever fluked a flag it would be Adelaide in 98, but hey they have the cup so good luck to them.

[Swampfox 190]

Dean Bailey said that he will give the current group (ie those that have played all 6 games) to see what they have to offer the MFC before he makes some changes.

Well 6 rounds in, and they have had their chance, and failed miserably. I think now we will see the real Dean Bailey, and start to learn more about his plan and his blueprint for the future.

If Bailey is serious, then Russell Robertson will be sent to Sandy next week. Bruce will get a run there at some stage as well.

Miller and Jamar will never play seniors again.

There will be a lot of experimentation. Meesen, Maric and Valenti will all get a taste for it in the coming weeks. The MFC team after round 13 or 14 will be unrecognisable.

I look forward to watching it unfold.

Miller , Jamar will play seniors again

Robertson i doubt will be dropped but it would be a good statement and something the press will have fun with

But then again i dont take that much notice of someone who,s favourite player is whoever knocks out Chris Judd

But one thing i agree on is looking foraward to watching it all unfold

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

No.. players never get bullied sorry your so correct.

I suppose next you'll inform me how useless sledging is - clearly abusing people has no place on a football field, not fair game to get inside your opponents head

Its no wonder you dont quote, because you like to twist words, i said i can only think of 1 side in the last 20 years that have won flags WITHOUT enforcers.

Adelaide didnt finish top 4 either year. They got beaten in finals in 98 (by us!) and through the weirdass finals system were allowed to keep going and North kicked somethin like 2.12 in the 2nd quarter in the GF - if any team has ever fluked a flag it would be Adelaide in 98, but hey they have the cup so good luck to them.

What im saying Halls "presence" is an asset to his game? you disagree or not?

No, but as our biggest bodied LEADER he should be imposing himself more then he is. Neitz has done it for years, he knew it was important. Millers in the leadership group, he aint showing enuff but guess what genius, hes contracted for 2 year so he has to be valuable to us SOMEHOW. - what ive been saying and you've felt you've had to educate me about is that Miller playing out of FF with the job of coming off the square at centre bounces, leading hard and hitting contests hard whether he marks it or not, and protecting the kids on the list from being intimidated by older bigger blokes as a designated angryman flag flyer would give him some value while we develop - if a KPP shows up great.. buts NEWS FLASH we dont have any.

If thats his role in the side, its unimportant as long as hes fullfilling it - rather have the kids protected by an angry repeated suspended Miller in 12 games this year then 0.

Is this where we have an argument about howmuch brains Caroll or Hall or god bless him Glenn Archer has - they hunger for contests and copping hits and giving them out.

playing "tough" aint about ability its about heart.

cheap and gutless shirtfronts.. holy hell you have no idea Pickett could win contested football, but he scared people when he was in the region in his best days at North and Port, his hits were mostly in play and mostly fair and were some of the best delivered in the last 10 years on a football field.

Dermott Brereton said it, shirtfronting is an art that very few perfect, and its a great asset as part of your game, but i guess he has no idea either. Howmany premiership medallions??? :lol:

And FWIW i (and im sure many other "boofheads" who read this site) loved Whelans hit on Luke Ball last year, but im sure you were gasping in horror.... OH THE THUGGERY

Yepo Pickett had those assets, but his intimidation and ability to do what few others can do, put people out of a game with some of the best shirtfronts ive seen are a reason he was so valuable and rated by coaches, he has a Rising star, 2 premiership medallions and a Norm smith medal. I rekon hed be pretty happy with his career except for the final years at our club.. geez i can only imagine what he thought of our blokes agression after coming from those North & Port sides... maybe ND under your expert guidance coached it out of him and ruined his career

Unless you have the skill to defeat your opponent in a contested ball situation and hurt the opposition with the use of the ball by hand or foot all the rest is secondary. You are glowing about the minor side condiments without knowing what is actually on the plate. Players like Hall have presence because of the way they win the ball and use the ball. They are hard at the contest and the ball.

Sorry I find shirtfronts where you hit a player when they are not looking not tough but gutless. The AFL have recognised it and have outlawed them. Its a pity Pickett had to soil a reputation as a very good footballer, excellent in close and good tackler with some of the nastiest and gutless hits on players I have seen. Quoting Dermott Brereton on what is appropriate on a footballer is like asking Chopper Read on how to run social welfare centre. No wonder Dermie thinks its an art. He is living in the 1980s and his mindset has not moved on. No wonder Hawthorn pushed him out after advising Vandenburg & Co to draw a line in the sand some years ago.

Pickett got those medals and accolades for playing the ball hard not the man. The only thing killed Pickett as footballer was Pickett. He would be happy with his MFC years. He slacked it and got $300k per year. And you are pretty chuffed with it too.

And Adelaide won back to back flags in 1997 and 1998 and they were flukes. The fact that they won the flags from no better than 4th hardly makes it a fluke....Oh dear.

BTW, Miller wears No 7 and rarely plays out of FF. Guy cant get a touch in the F50. Cant win a contest. Works his butt off but you are right he aint a KPP. How does he "pwotect" the little players when he is suspended?

Whelan's hit on Ball was neither here nor there as it did little for the team on the day and given Whelan had only 4 touches for the game I guess you would call that "presence". It worked well and scared the [censored] out of the opposition who won 13.15 to 9.8 (and 3 of those goals were in junk time in the last quarter). In fact the hit only temporarily incapacitated Ball and took the wind out of Whelan. Bravo.

[Cheney 38]

No awareness whatsoever

Thankyou. Finally someone has realised that this bloke has no awareness of who's around him.. How many times has he handballed to a player under pressure! How many times has he been caught holding the ball in our 50, when his taking 20 mins to get rid of the ball!!! Although he goes in hard, he's just not up to it.. And to top it off, he was a pick 14!!!

[Cheney 38]

Agree on Robbo.

Miller is not going anywhere and Meesen does not deserve a spot at this stage.

Miller is the biggest Netballer i've seen in years.. He's all rough and tough towards his man, but doesn't get near the footy. Looks like tarzan...plays like Jane. Heard form a good souce that Meesen was a star at Adelaide on the training track, but soft as butter on the ground and thats why they got rid of him. Think about it, why would a club get rid of a 6ft5 ruckman who was a pick 8? They don't do they.

[rpfc 27,590]

Thankyou. Finally someone has realised that this bloke has no awareness of who's around him.. How many times has he handballed to a player under pressure! How many times has he been caught holding the ball in our 50, when his taking 20 mins to get rid of the ball!!! Although he goes in hard, he's just not up to it.. And to top it off, he was a pick 14!!!

I know you're talking about Bell but, honestly, those sentences vould apply to half our team (only half?). He's a back flanker Daniel Bell - courageous, selfless, athletic, quick, a decent kick, and good value for the position he plays.

Some have said we should try him in the midfield, which I cannot see for the reasons you mentioned - indecisive, poor peripheral vision, makes bad decisions.

However, for a back flanker he is a good player who is apart of a backline that at the moment is seeing more action than the Western Front. They are battling away back there, with the huge workload and their own confidence issues.

Our midfield sometimes gets away with alot from us and these players should get the blame, not our backmen: Green, Bruce, McLean, Jones, McDonald, Moloney, Batram, White, and Jamar. They are the ones that allow an average of 62 inside 50s.

62!! The AFL median is around 48.

(Agian with the stats, I know. But some stats see into the truth of things.)

While it may not suprise you, it at the very least, should alarm you.