Lay it On the Line - What do you think of our players?

[w00dy 146]

It happens a lot on this forum, where a lot of posters will be on the back of a player one minute, then the next that same player is everyone's favourite son.

I think it would be good to have a thread that lasts, where everyone can express their views, look like a genuis when they're right, but also be held accountable when they're wrong. It will make people think about what they're typing, rather than just jumping on players when they're in or out of form.

I'll start. And to be honest a few of these are going to be players who have played well in the last few weeks, but I'm not lying when I say I've had these views for a long time. Further, a lot of what I'm saying is pretty much stating the obvious, but I've read people getting stuck into these players at one time or another.

Paul Wheatley: is great for us. I've been a fan of him ever since I saw him get 10 possies in the first quarter against the Bulldogs at the Telstra Dome one day, and he spent 5-10 minutes on the bench. Has pace, a long, accurate, penetrating kick. Our attacks look much better from the back half when he kicks out, and I think he should take every kick-in. Gets a game in the best 22 easily.

Russell Robertson: can be selfish at times, but still probably our most dangerous forward. I thought he did well in the first two rounds considering the complete lack of supply. When we actually did give him decent supply he took marks and kicked goals. Poor game against the Cats, but he moved up the field to try and help out and get involved in the play, which is a dimension to his game we haven't seen yet. His field kicking wasn't great but that's something for him to work on. But he was valiant for us last year, playing most of the season injured, and I'm backing him in to have a good season.

Jeff White: Not the player he once was, but still easily in the top 10 ruckman in the competition. We've always been lucky to have him, and taken him for granted somewhat.

Paul Johnson: while everyone will be on his bandwagon now, I've always rated him our 2nd best ruckman. Still think he's only going to improve. Looks like our new game plan will suit him no end too.

Chris Johnson: I've always been a fan of his, disappointing year last year and will probably be his last chance this year. Has always had the skill and poise, just hasn't been able to put it all together. Bailey's giving him a go, bringing him into the team on the weekend, and I'm backing Bailey to get something out of CJ and making him a player.

Jace Bode: Not up to it for mine. Just doesn't convince me as an AFL player. Played his best game for us against Carlton in that ridiculous match at the G in round 22 last year. Don't think he'll play another 5 games for Melbourne, shouldn't play another game.

Lynden Dunn: I predicted a big year for Lynden. Hasn't been a great start for him, but I'm still backing him in to become one of our best players, I'm talking top 5 players at the club.

Daniel Bell: Something about him just doesn't convince me. I've seen him play some good games, and he's in our best 22 at the moment. I just doubt he's ever going to completely establish himself as an AFL player. He notches up his 50th game soon, but at 23 he should have a bigger stamp on the game than he does.

[don cordner 165]

Paul Wheatley: he's tall he can kick goals from 50.. i would like him as a centre half forward..

Russell Robertson: he's a confidence player he can own or he can be quite, i like him just give him time..

Jeff White: i think he is awsome. he played really good last year but still everyone was on his case.. i still think he's good and will give us heaps this year..

Paul Johnson:i want this big man at full forward..

Chris Johnson: nothing special.. next!

Jace Bode: newb..

Lynden Dunn:has potential.. i like this kid.. he can kick a goal he just knows how to read the play.. i would like this guy to be given more games..

Daniel Bell: niether here or there.. sitting on the fence with this guy ..

[Freak 100]

Paul Wheatley:keep

Russell Robertson: garbage

Jeff White: keep

Paul Johnson:keep

Chris Johnson: garbage

Jace Bode: garbage

Lynden Dunn:keep

Daniel Bell: keep

[sylvinator 96]

White- has been a great performer for over a decade and we should feel lucky for every game he plays. while he plays we atleast break even in the ruck. without him we would be in the same position as collingwood and the blue who lose matches bc of lack of ruckman.

those who question the important of a ruckman- it cost the pies a flag last year!!!!

Jamar= dump

Meesan= seems dump

PJ= a good backup ruckman however will never be a number1 ruck...

conclusion= with White in his last 2 seasons, we better get Naitanui

[sylvinator 96]

Bate= good youngster but i dont think he'll ever be in the top 50 players in the afl

Mclean= see Bate

Sylvia= see Bate

Pettard= see Bate

Newton= see Bate

Bell= see Bate

Buckley= see Bate

P.Johnson= see Bate

Bartram= see Bate

Moloney= see Bate

The only youngsters we have capable of becoming a really great (by great i mean is in the top50 players in the afl) are Jones and maybe Morton is a few years.

Even Jones i have my doubts...though he is a great youngster and will be a solid palyer for us for a decade.

This is why we are in such a [censored] position. because none of our players ever push on to become truely great players.

Robbo, Bruce, Green and others had the potential to be and failed miserably.

[mfcrox 143]

Good topic Vanlo. Like the idea, and agree with you on most of what you had to say. Sort of disagree about Chris Johnson and Jace Bode though.

I would love for Johnson to cement a spot in the team, because the 'best' we have seen from him would be a good addition to the side... I just don't think he will be able to play at his top level consistently enough though (hopefully he can prove me wrong). Bode is Okay in my opinion, he is never going to be an out-and-out superstar... but his skill has looked Okay, and he does have genuine pace, which is something our midfield lacks at the minute.

Ok, my turn now to do some assessments

Brad Miller: I have time for this bloke... as long as we play him forward!!! Ideally he shouldn't be playing CHF, because I don't think he is suited to the 'hardest position on the ground'. I would rather him on a flank/wing... because he has a pretty good tank and could charge up and down the ground between forward pocket and CHB and create a target for that next kick out of the defensive 50. He showed signs of some mongrel last week aswell, and that is another positive about him.

Nathan Carroll: As above for Miller... is not playing in his ideal position in my opinion, but it is due to having no-one else ready. Ideally he would be taking the 3rd forward, not the 1st. I will put my neck on the line and say he has been our best player this season so far. If we could have this bloke playing on the 3rd best forward, we would be in good shape up back I think... because he is better than we give him credit for.

Cameron Bruce: This bloke gets hammered a fair bit on here... but is it because we set the 'pass-mark' too high??? On his best day, he is probably top-30 in the competition... on his worst day, he is still an above-average AFL player. I'll admit, I've let fly with a few expletives whilst watching this bloke play... one minute he can kick an absolute mongrel off the side of his boot, but 5mins later he'll pop up and kick 2-goals in quick succession. Something interesting I thought I'd throw in: This bloke has averaged 21.35 disposals, 3.50 tackles, and 0.91 goals per game in seasons 2005-06-07. Now look at the stats of Chri$ Judd for the same period: 23.75 disposals, 3.80 tackles, and 0.77 goals per game. Doesn't scrub up too bad does he when you look at that. A much needed player in the red and blue in my opinion.

Brad Green: Nearly 10yrs into his career, and we still do not know what position he is suited to. Yeah, he is versatile... and could fill a forward pocket as he did early in his career, but personally I don't think he would get more than 1-2 goals a game from that spot (and I would deem that a waste for a bloke like him). Personally, I would like to see him running off half back or along a wing... he has played this role a few times in recent years, and I thought he did well on each of those occasions. Another needed player in the red and blue in my opinion.

Matthew Bate: Still a young bloke... and I rate him highly. Has glue-hands, a booming kick on the run, and decent size about him. Where do you play a bloke like that? Played his junior football in a key position I think, but got moved into the middle in the Under 18s and ended up winning the Morrish Medal. I don't think he is quick enough to play a fast leading forward type of role, but I don't think he is an AFL standard midfielder either (yet). I'd be willing to try him at CHF when he is fit this season, but that is just because we are lacking a genuine CHF right now... and he is the sort of bloke who should be in the side.

Brent Moloney: At his best, he is an important cog in our midfield... he is hard and can get the ball. Hopefully he can get back to his pre-O.P form, but I just have doubts that he will. One criticism I have is his kicking into forward 50... yeah, it is a positive when he carries the ball 20metres and kicks it 55, but for every decent kick that hits our blokes on the chest... I reckon there are 2-3 that miss the target, which has the potential to hurt us on the rebound.

Aaron Davey: We need him to get his mojo back. Where are the 20metre chases and tackles??? I dunno if he has lost confidence in himself since tearing his hamstrings, but he is not the Aaron Davey of 2-seasons ago. I don't see him as a full time midfielder, more of a Hird-type (50% forward - 50% midfield). I reckon he is a 'confidence' player, so hopefully he can have a few ripper weeks soon and return to the player he was pre-2007.

Those are my ratings/assessments on some of the blokes who are in our best-22 (well my best 22 anyway). All of the above above-average AFL players... and players that could be part of a premiership winning side. I get tired of hearing "we won't win a premiership with _______ in our team"... the first two blokes on my list are on the receiving end of that the most I reckon. Those blokes aren't duds... they may just be out of position, or simply trying gallantly to fill in a position they aren't suited to because we don't have the personal at present to fill it.

That is my opinion anyway... welcome any feedback if people wanna leave it (good or bad. LoL).

[rpfc 27,476]

Plans for Next Season

Deletions - Garland, C.Johnson, Warnock

Retirements - Yze, Neitz, White, Holland

Trade - Bruce (top 15 pick), Green (top 20 pick), Miller (top 35)

Upgraded - Wonaeamirri, Valenti

4/7 Picks in the Nat Draft, 1 in the PSD. Current Projections: Picks 3, 19, 36, 52 or w/trades Picks 3, 12, 19, 23, 29, 36, 52 approx.

FOUNDATION TEAM - Members IMO good enough to be in a grand final tilt.

FB Frawley Bell

HB Petterd Rivers

C Dunn McLean Moloney

HF Davey Morton Wonaeamirri

FF Sylvia Bate Newton

R Johnson, Jones, Batram

I Grimes, Maric

I see a good solid spine, and plenty of talent. With a full back required. Maybe Frawley, McNamara, Martin...

I am aware of the leap of faith with Frawley (although in the pocket), Dunn, Sylvia, Newton (but again in the pocket), and Grimes and Maric but that's just opinion.

Question marks on Buckley, Bode, Cheney, Meesen, Martin, and McNamara.

[Spaghetti 264]

Geez, other clubs would have to be smoking something heavy to trade a top 15 and top 20 pick for Bruce and Green respectively

[Doggo 32]

White- has been a great performer for over a decade and we should feel lucky for every game he plays. while he plays we atleast break even in the ruck. without him we would be in the same position as collingwood and the blue who lose matches bc of lack of ruckman.

PJ= a good backup ruckman however will never be a number1 ruck...

conclusion= with White in his last 2 seasons, we better get Naitanui

Which Jeff White are have u been watching?

I loved Jeff in his peak, and am grateful for the contribution he has made to the club over the last ten years, but at this stage of his career, there is no way he's been breaking even in the ruck.

PJ, whilst no world beater in the centre ruck contest, all year has looked far more potent in the ruck than Jeff. He may not get the numbers White does in terms of overall hit outs, but his effectiveness with them is superior. I dont have the exact stats in front of me, but i've noticed in the paper in all games this season that PJ's effective HO % is always higher than White's.

There's no way we'd be as bad in the ruck as the Blues and Pies have been, because...

PJ + White >>>>> Fraser/Bryan, Ackland/Cloke/O'hAilpin

[timD 994]

Russell Robertson: kick it to me!

Jeff White: past it but loyal servant. Was a top fligh player for few years like few others on the list.

Paul Johnson:steady improvement but does need his luck to change.

Chris Johnson: a really good player if he could only get the ball and use it and be a bit harder. After 4-5 years with us.

Jace Bode: no idea.

Lynden Dunn: not hard enough. If he does not show that now, trade.

Daniel Bell: wonderful player if given a (cognitively) simple job.

[RickyBobby 0]

FWIW my thoughts

Paul Wheatley: like him but has been an underachiever to date I think. Will be an important player to us over the next couple of years as we go through the re-building stage, could have been an absolute gun.

Russell Robertson: soft, uninterested, selfish, frustrating to watch and on the very odd occasion a game winner the bad far outweighs the good with Robbo

Jeff White: Think Jeff does enough to warrant his selection each week has been a good loyal servant but it is time to start handing over the reigns

Paul Johnson: Always liked the guy when comparing to Jamar anyway, super impressed with his start to the year looks like he wants to be out there, committed, strong and starting to show he can really play

Chris Johnson: won't make it!

Jace Bode: haven't seen enough of him to comment

Lynden Dunn: seems a bit behind in his development like alot of Melbourne players... will become a player

Daniel Bell: needs to take the step up from hardworking defender to elite defender and think he will, needs some support but he'll be right

Colin Sylvia: trade bait

Colin Garland: boourns I don't like to be overly critical of young guys but seriously... boo

Matthew Bate: will be a star

Jared Rivers: Will once again establish himself as one of the key backs in the comp

Cale Morton: Natural, looking forward to see what the future has in store for Cale. He'll be good, how good though is is up to him.

[The Emblem 1]

Bartram, Clint - Important run with player, club mainstay over next 5 years

Bate, Matthew - good utility player, club mainstay over next 5 years

Bell, Daniel - good defender, could do with some more self-belief

Bode, Jace - tenacious but doubt he has the speed or footskills for AFL

Bruce, Cameron - very good player, especially one-on-one, kicking skills slipping though

Buckley, Simon - potential, needs to work harder when oppo have the ball

Carroll, Nathan - worth keeping as a back pocket, we ask too much of him at FB

Cheney, Kyle - potential, great appetite for tackling, and attacks the ball hard

Davey, Aaron - temporarily lost mojo, lets all go out and help him find it because we need him back in full flight

Dunn, Lynden - smart footballer and I think will develop into an excellent utlility player

Frawley, James - potential, could do with a little more self belief, worth developing

Garland, Colin - could see him becoming a HFF, dont like him down back though, deserves another year to prove himself

Green, Brad - prefer him as a FP with the occaisonal run in the midfield...could become trade bait

Grimes, Jack - get well soon

Holland, Ben - highly underated but in his last season for sure

Jamar, Mark - ruck work so-so, think the way AFL footy is heading is not going to suit him - possible trade / delist

Johnson Chris - see flashes of what he could be, but must show something this year or become possible trade / delist

Johnson, Paul - shows he wants it bad enough and developing nicely

Jones, Nathan - makes the most of his ability and his worth will be enhanced as we develop better outside midfielders

Maric, Aadam - has guts, smarts and freakish skills, think he will become a club mainstay

Martin, Stefan - tall, athletic, makes a contest. Kicking skills need to improve, but going forward I think he can become an important part of our spine

McDonald, James - great example to alll at the MFC, if he wants to go around again in 2009 thats fine by me

McLean, Brock - quality player and still with room for improvement, needs to improve his awareness

McNamara, Tom - I get the feeling that this guy could grow into a fantastic acquisition for MFC

Meesen, John - I'm not exactly sure why we got him...he is like one of those Japanese "soft-road" vehicles that does lots of things but not very well

Miller, Brad - Limited player who can fill a hole for us at CHF until contract expires or we can offload as trade bait

Moloney, Brent - good player, may not fit in with DB's game plan though and could become trade bait which would be bit of a shame

Morton, Cale - potential to be an elite AFL player

Neitz, David - sadly age is catching up with him

Newton, Michael - has potential but needs to improve attitude [work ethic] and concentration skills if he is going to make it at AFL level

Petterd, Ricky - potential to become a club mainstay if Vlad the Impaler doesn't make us ship him off to the Gold Coast franchise

Rivers, Jared - if he stays healthy is an AFL elite player

Robertson, Russell - must buck up his ideas, way too selfish lately, will kick the odd bag but at what expense to the team when he doesn't?

Sylvia, Colin - times up! Must show this year or trade / delist

Warnock, Matthew - honest solid player, just not quite AFL standard, trade / delist

Weetra, Isaac - on what I saw Saturday he is not in Sandy's best 22 let alone the MFC - delist

Wheatley, Paul - solid utility, think he will be around for another 2 to 3 years at the MFC

Whelan, Matthew - quality underated player, hope we can squeeze one more year out of him

White, Jeff - Jeff's off at the end of the year, right time to go, thanks for being a great servant to the club

Yze, Adem - please go now so we can promote the rookies

Rookies:

Wonaemirri, Austin - haven't seeen much of him but like what I hear

Valenti, Shane - very good football brain, think he can become a good depth player for us, maybe even more

Zomer, Trent - raw but a good overhead mark, worth developing as a KPP

Spencer, Jake - big bugger - hope he can develop quickly because our ruck stocks look a bit thin

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

I'm gonna go general here... I could be specific but no-one will resurrect this thread...

The players are mostly mediocre in 2008.

We have some classy old performers who are now too old to make a meaningful tilt at anything.

We have a group of youngsters that would be a sensational group to occupy the 6th-22nd most important places on the list. We have the youth to make a good solid list, but not the top-tier players. Not even one. Not yet. Morton maybe, McLean and Jones possibly.... But not those top 6 dangerous types that Neitz, Robbo, White, Yze and others USED to be 5 years ago.

[Adzman 2,085]

I am just gonna come out and say this, feel free to say what you like about it. Daniel Bell is a MUST player for us. I don't know what he has to do to get the fans on board. He reads the play well, on the odd possie he can turn it over, but considering what he have I would rate him as one of our best backmen, and one we can use for the next 5-7 years.

Call me what you want, but i have seen far worse backmen at this club to have been granted more slack than Belly.

Bell is a keeper!

[Eastie Boyz 0]

There's no way we'd be as bad in the ruck as the Blues and Pies have been, because...

PJ + White >>>>> Fraser/Bryan, Ackland/Cloke/O'hAilpin

Wood/Fraser and Hampson/Kruezer.

[gOLLy 401]

Geez, other clubs would have to be smoking something heavy to trade a top 15 and top 20 pick for Bruce and Green respectively

Well you wouldnt get rid of them then. Trading them for less would be a waste. I think thats what they are worth

Anyways lets see what DB get out of them

[Jarka 767]

Wood/Fraser and Hampson/Kruezer.

Ouch, it doesn't look good does it?

[gOLLy 401]

Wood/Fraser and Hampson/Kruezer.

Fraser would have to be the worst ruckman in the game, and the filth think his good.

[Yze_Magic 3]

Yze_magics take on the entire list. Might be worth forwarding this on to the MFC.

Bartram, Clint - love this bloke, here for the long run.

Bate, Matthew - super hands, booming kick. Definite 200 gamer

Bell, Daniel - seems to have regressed, although has been under the pump in 2008

Bode, Jace - no good

Bruce, Cameron - for a bloke on 500K, id expect a tad more than two good games a year on Brad Johnson. Must be traded.

Buckley, Simon - love his speed and he takes the game on. Deplorable skills, but I think he will find a spot.

Carroll, Nathan - would be an All-Australian as a 3rd tall defender. Needs help besides Rivers

Cheney, Kyle - looks the goods this kid, Peter Walsh clone in every way

Davey, Aaron - his speed has dissappeared. Where the hell did it go?

Dunn, Lynden - absolute gun in the making

Frawley, James - I have no idea. We lack key backs, yet he isnt in the team. Bit of a shmae since he was a 1st rounder

Garland, Colin - not AFL standard

Green, Brad - will finish his career as a Demon. Greeny is good, just confused. Needs to settle in one spot.

Grimes, Jack - future superstar

Holland, Ben - maligned for no reason at all. Has he played a bad game for the MFC? His last year sadly

Jamar, Mark - lol

Johnson Chris - 2 years ago I held hope, but he isnt up to stadard. Gone at years end

Johnson, Paul - love the way he plays. Improves a little every year.

Jones, Nathan - the bloke has tremendous ticker, but a poor footy brain. Must dipose of the ball qucker.

Maric, Aadam - the next Allen Jakovich. Just wait til he is unleashed at AFL level

Martin, Stefan - going to be a player I think

McDonald, James - should play on in 2009, and I hope he does.

McLean, Brock - once a potential suprstar, now just a slow plodder. Time is running out to reach star status.

McNamara, Tom - not too sure, but have heard good reports

Meesen, John - give him a run at AFL level and see if we are wasting our time

Miller, Brad - Oh jesus.

Moloney, Brent - Could be all over for Brent, who seems lost in the shuffle Damn shame for a fine player

Morton, Cale - the next MFC superstar. Will be as good as Lyon/Flower. A sight to behold.

Neitz, David - last year for the heart and soul of the club.

Newton, Michael - can jump high. Thats about it.

Petterd, Ricky - definite 200 gamer. Could be play anywhere, has great speed and skills.

Rivers, Jared - let us pray that he stays injury free. Our greatest hope, after Cale Morton

Robertson, Russell - we signed this bloke for 3 years? Massive error.

Sylvia, Colin - moved around to much, needs somewhere to settle. Permanent forward for my liking. Will win the 2008 Bluey

Warnock, Matthew - bye bye

Weetra, Isaac - could go either way. A real 50/50. I have a strange feeling he will make it and be a good player.

Wheatley, Paul - underrated, great speed and a booming kick. Now a veteran, and an important cog.

Whelan, Matthew - We have missed him immensely, but how long can he go on? Always injured.

White, Jeff - Finished at years end. Revolutionised the ruck position 10 years ago. Rule change killed him.

Yze, Adem - definite retiree

Rookies:

Wonaemirri, Austin - gun. The next Byron Pickett. A definite 200 gamer

Valenti, Shane - absolute gun, why is he on the rookie list? Arghh

Zomer, Trent - will be on the list in 2009. Can take a grab

Spencer, Jake - not sure, cant comment.

2009 summary

Retired

David Neitz

Jeff White

Adem Yze

Ben Holland

Traded

Cameron Bruce

Brent Moloney

Russell Robertson

brad Miller

Delisted

Matthew Warnock

Mark Jamar

Jace Bode

Chris Johnson

Colin Garland

Promoted

Trent Zomer

Austin Wonemarri

Shane Valenti

13 out, 3 in.

We need to find 10 players. I think we will load up in the National draft with 6-8 picks. Then we have the preseason draft, and trade week.

There will be big changes coming in 2009.

[Eastie Boyz 0]

Fraser would have to be the worst ruckman in the game, and the filth think his good.

That's cos he's an oversized 3rd tall forward/tall midfielder not a ruckman. If the Pies had someone else besides Wood he (Fraser) wouldn't be rucking

[occo 2]

I dont believe bell is a good defender. He is constantly behind the ball, gets lost in the game and cant mark. I have no confidance he will be any good. I believe we should be investing what will be a bad year into training him into a midfielder. He has speed and some of the skills to make him play a little better. One thing that he will always struggle with is his decision making skills as these are woefull. Now im going to be bagged.....

[Adzman 2,085]

Ym, you say "Cheney, Kyle - looks the goods this kid, Peter Walsh clone in every way". Let us hope he is a tad better than walshy!

Ym, I agree with most of your 2009 summary.

Retired

David Neitz- 50/50 might go one more.

Jeff White- 50/50 also

Adem Yze- looks grim for OOOZE

Ben Holland- Sad but true, gone 2009.

Traded

Cameron Bruce- Doubt someone will take his contract unless we pay half (not good for our cap, better off keeping him), so he is staying

Brent Moloney- If he cannot find fitness, I cannot see him even being traded. Might be done at AFL level if he cannot get fit.

Russell Robertson- Big trade candidate, could see the saints/dogs/dockers making a move for him.

Brad Miller- Not going to get enough in return in a trade.

Delisted

Matthew Warnock- Matty is not up to it. GONE

Mark Jamar- To my knowledge under contract until end of 2009. More likely to be a trade candidate to a SA team.

Jace Bode- Hmm, not sure yet, could turn it around. Is playing for his career this season.

Chris Johnson- Another one playing for his career, has a chance under bails, he needs to grab it and step up.

Colin Garland- Too yong to give up on. Will get another year.

Promoted

Trent Zomer- Doubt it so far.

Austin Wonemarri- Will be on Senior list in the minds of coaches before this seasons end.

Shane Valenti- Will be promoted if enough retirements/trades/delistings occur

[gOLLy 401]

Confused