The 2009 List

[Seinfeld 40]

By the start of 2009 Stefan Martin will be one of our key backman...

He and Rivers will be the backbone of the new era of demon supremacy.

Who loves ya, baby!

[godees 863]

I think both McDonald and White will go around again next year. Why should mcdonald retire? He's just come off back to back B&Fs!

And there is no way Wheatley will be delisted.

[Paul Gardner 6]

I think both McDonald and White will go around again next year. Why should mcdonald retire? He's just come off back to back B&Fs!

And there is no way Wheatley will be delisted.

I hope not! I don't want McDonald to give it away.

We might however have a need for a mobile tall forward @ the Zebras.

[Jarka 767]

Anyone who has read my posts over he last 18 months will understand my frustration with our lack of KPP's and I would have dearly loved to have got Henderson in the draft however CAC did the right thing in taking Morton. With a top 5 pick you always take the best available and Morton definitely fitted that description. Yes, Henderson may turn out to be a gun KPP but there was an element of risk involved with the pick, not so with Morton.

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

I Agree to being Hard on the List at this years end, but lets see what Happens this year First-Way too early with an untried Foot ball Dept.

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

I Agree to being Hard on the List at this years end, but lets see what Happens this year First-Way too early with an untried Foot ball Dept.

[beelzebub 23,380]

hold the list... think I have another for the "dont come in 09" !! lol

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I would have to say that there have been many people on here and on Demonology that have been calling for the heads of some chronic non performers over the last 5 to 6 years, so I don't consider this to be a hindsight issue. The truth of the matter is that for one reason or another we have allowed some good players to slip through our grasp, Thompson, Jolly and Snake to name a few and have retained some ordinary players for much too long like Jamar, Biz and Yze.

You are spot on about our list it has been vastly over rated by both the club and the supporters and now it's all come crashing down around us, our recruiting and list management is now a major problem. I have just been through a lengthy debate on here about our recruiting and it is probably not much use doing that again but I stick by my opinion that it has been sub standard.

We have not made the right strategic decisions about where we were and where we should be and have missed he boat in terms of a renewal of our list. We have imo, been too focused on getting in to the finals and have let the rebuilding process slip by us. We could have traded TJ when he was worth something but waited until he was almost devoid of currency and got for our troubles a kid, who before he starts his career is out injured for 6 to 8 with a groin problem.

We have to start this rebuilding now and forget about winning enough games to get us to maybe 8th to 10th, that is just totally useless to us at this point in time.

Neither Simmonds nor Jolly are top rate ruckman. We traded Simmonds who wanted to be a No 1 ruckman because we had Jolly. We traded Jolly because he cracked the shits at lack of game time against the current AA ruckman. He would have walked in the PSD the following year had we not traded him. He's a limited player. Thompson would have done the same to MFC if he was not traded back to SA. He is the only departure that really hurts us. And those three were not sacrificed for the retention of Biz, Jamar and Yze.

FWIW, I would have traded Yze or TJ at the end of 2004. At least you would have got some value for player who showed he was spent in 2005. Unless you traded TJ after 2002 you would not have got anymore for him. He played 2 to 3 good years for us. 2002, 2005 and possibly 2006. He was damaged goods throughout.

I rest my judgement on CAC until I see the fruits of 2003 onwards. McLean and Sylvia are 5 year players. Bell is in his sixth year. They must deliver. It would be good to see some younger players showing a bit.

If you want to talk about strategic issues....the impact of the salary cap penalties in 1999 and 2000 have screwed for loss of talent and undermined list management. Its seriously damages team lists and means you are playing catch up for the next 10 years. Our poor drafting in 2001 only exacerbated these short comings.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Yep RR, you can harp on about the salary cap issues, and no-one will comment on it... Which is a shame, because you're dead right.

We're reaping what we've sewn.

As for the original post, it's not a bad effort. I pretty much agree on everything, but there were one or two things I'd dispute, like the fact that Robbo has 3 good years left in him, and that it's too earlky to dig into Meesen... but at this late stage why bother? It was pretty sound throughout...

This 22 rounds are going to be a balancing act where the club tries to minimise the damage to its reputation and players' market value, while teaching the young guys how to become 22 round players...

The next big decision that REALLY effects the club will be one of two things... The replacement captain, who could potentially come mid-year if Neita gets injured or gives it away a la Ox - OR - Who we get rid of to make room for our 2008 draftees...

If we get rid of 8 players, we still won't have cast off enough dead wood to make a genuinely fresh list...

Neita, JMac, Holland, Yze... Maybe White... and Whelan, given his injuries... ALL possible retirements before you even need to pick up your red texta...

Then there's Warnock, Jamar and arguably CJ who should be out a the next opportunity. The first two are just plain not up to it. So that's 8 potentials right there... ANd I haven't even spoken about the rookies who, while good, are simply less likely to make it in the long run. (no disrespect to Valenti and Martin)

If you're being realistic, they'll beg White to go around again. Looking at the age of many ruckmen left in the game, I doubt they'll let him go. Whelan has earned enough respect to be persisted with, and he can teach the young defence how to do their jobs... But those aside my point still stands. A couple of these guys were persisted with only because you can't delist 12 in one go.

We've a long way to go...

[QueenC 74]

I like the effort but do you not think it would be more pertinent to make this sort of analysis at the end of the season. Or at least after they have played a few real games.

Thank you.....

I realise that we have a number of ongoing concerns with the list (ruck, CHF, mid-field speed etc) and you would think, want, need some (wishful thinking for all) of these to be addressed by the coaching staff throughout the year and again at years end. But that is just the point isn't it? Give them a shot to try then line them up.

At years end, or at least after more than a round of pre-season games that were by any standard appalling, but may not necessarily be a completely accurate account of exactly where this club is actually at. Now I can here people yelling at me for my "rose coloured glasses" but that is not the case here, I get the realities and want to see how to improve them but I just think we must assess using this year as well as previous years, as these are the players we have right now.

Lets also give this new coach with his new assistant team and I guess new techniques and plans to play a few "real" games before we start auctioning off his squad.

This is not a criticism of the opening post which was very well thought out and not inaccurate, but come back to me in a couple of months with some more recent critiques of our player altered pool. The same problems could, and probably will still be there, but no-one has any idea of what if any improvement we may have.

Just my opinion !!!

[occo 2]

WTF!

We didnt get Meeson so he can play 1 season!

Jake Spencer hasnt even played 1 game and yet hes now ahead of Meeson and Jamar and yet i bet u want Jamar, Meeson and White gone for Natanui who could be a sucsess or an absolute failure.

Get rid of Robbo, a player who is integral to the forward line. Yeah great sence that is

Ill call it now: The worst post of the season

[Jarka 767]

If you want to talk about strategic issues....the impact of the salary cap penalties in 1999 and 2000 have screwed for loss of talent and undermined list management. Its seriously damages team lists and means you are playing catch up for the next 10 years. Our poor drafting in 2001 only exacerbated these short comings.

RR I understand your point and of course losing a round 1, 2 & 3 pick will have an affect however it was what, 8 or 9 years ago? There have been other factors to explain why we are in this position.

How many picks has the club blown by trading for mature players way past their best footy? eg Ellis, Holland, Pickett.

How many early picks have we blundered? eg Lamb, Molan, Smith etc

Sure the penalties had an effect but they pale into insignificance when compared to our drafting and trading decisions over the last decade.

[old55 23,613]

Now where's the fun in that?

That's what your wife said.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

RR I understand your point and of course losing a round 1, 2 & 3 pick will have an affect however it was what, 8 or 9 years ago? There have been other factors to explain why we are in this position.

The picks 1,2 and 3 could have been the three key players (possibly leaders) on our list who have played 150 games each on our list and are cemented quality AFL footballers. We have been denied their impact for all of those nine years and they have impacted the way we have recruited because of the holes they leave in our list. IMO it has hurt us the most in the past 3 years when those notional players would have been at their peak.

This is why in my opinion, the cap penalties on Carlton which were worse than Melbourne will stuff them up for some time. It partially explains their eagerness to tank last year to get that extra player to supplement their crippled list.

How many picks has the club blown by trading for mature players way past their best footy? eg Ellis, Holland, Pickett.

How many early picks have we blundered? eg Lamb, Molan, Smith etc

We have traded for players on a needs basis. Simmonds was traded for the best defender available who subsequently did his knee and also pick 26 in the 2001 draft. I have already stated as others have 2001 was a bad draft.

Holland was traded in 2003 for pick 21 in the 2003 draft. Richmond took Alex Gilmour with that pick. Who better would MFC have taken in that draft (which is proving itself to be one of the shallowest drafts on record for talent). Holland has been serviceable where we had a deficiency.

The idea to bolster our midfield stocks with a 2 year period was a reasonable one. We gave picks 28 and 44 to Port for Pickett. Pickett had he been motivated could have been outstanding for us. Who was taken with those picks or even lower that have had a greater impact besides Bartram.

Our poor showing with the early picks have been counter balanced by the success of the later picks. On the 2003 and beyond drafts time will tell.

Its easy to pick the eyes out of things and build an argument that collapses when viewed against the relativity and totality of whole picture

Sure the penalties had an effect but they pale into insignificance when compared to our drafting and trading decisions over the last decade.

No its equivalent as I have stated earlier. In both cases you are denied access to a quality long term footballer.

[Jarka 767]

The picks 1,2 and 3 could have been the three key players (possibly leaders) on our list who have played 150 games each on our list and are cemented quality AFL footballers.

This may have been true, there's no way to prove or disprove it, however...

Our poor showing with the early picks have been counter balanced by the success of the later picks.

...you've hit the nail on the head. Our record with early picks is poor, so there's absolutely no guarantee we would have picked up a couple of guns, in fact as you've pointed out we would have most likely have screwed those picks up as well.

Its easy to pick the eyes out of things and build an argument that collapses when viewed against the relativity and totality of whole picture

Damn straight

[The Emblem 1]

WTF!

We didnt get Meeson so he can play 1 season!

Jake Spencer hasnt even played 1 game and yet hes now ahead of Meeson and Jamar and yet i bet u want Jamar, Meeson and White gone for Natanui who could be a sucsess or an absolute failure.

Get rid of Robbo, a player who is integral to the forward line. Yeah great sence that is

Ill call it now: The worst post of the season

Steady YM may be upset if I nick that mantle from him...

And read the players in orange as being "under the microscope" not necessarily out.

2009 Rucks:

Meesen has to learn to play as a ruckman...otherwise why include him in the ruck division at all? We need him to learn fast - and remember this is his 4th year in the system, not his first. If he can't cut it as a ruckman he will need to become a KPP, either way - under the microscope.

White might simply retire - there is more to life

Jamar isn't quite an AFL ruckman so why keep him?

Spencer isnt ahead of them, he's just still there

I mention Natanui not because I want a wooden spoon, its just that he would be the most promising target should that eventuate.

Either way, looking ahead our ruck stocks are average, its a matter of 'when' not 'if' for the overhaul.

2009 Forwards

Robbo is under the microscope because he will have to produce even more if Neita retires. I suspect he will stay for 09 [he's contracted] but hopefully his spot will increasingly come under pressure from the improvement in players amongst our 20-23 year old group. Robbo's ariel marking is a delight to watch, but he's also very slow when chasing defenders. We may not like to admit it, but the opposition teams see this and exploit it on a regular basis.

DB see's Newton's future as being a FF, this would give Miller [once Rivers is fit] a chance [last one?] to return to CHF and re-establish himself a strong aggresive lead-up forward.

There's plenty more to debate...it's by no means a rose coloured glasses thread...not everyone's going to agree or like it, it may change some minds / ways of thinking, and with sound arguements you can change mine as well.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

This may have been true, there's no way to prove or disprove it, however...

Put it simply we would have been better having access to that talent than not.

...you've hit the nail on the head. Our record with early picks is poor, so there's absolutely no guarantee we would have picked up a couple of guns, in fact as you've pointed out we would have most likely have screwed those picks up as well.

Not at all.

From the very few first round picks, Travis Johnson, Scott Thompson and Daniel Bell would counter your argument. And so far there have been few players out of 2003 that have been better than McLean and Sylvia. They still have time to be 10 year 200 game players for us.

[Jarka 767]

Put it simply we would have been better having access to that talent than not.

Not at all.

From the very few first round picks, Travis Johnson, Scott Thompson and Daniel Bell would counter your argument. And so far there have been few players out of 2003 that have been better than McLean and Sylvia. They still have time to be 10 year 200 game players for us.

No, you got it right the first time when you said...

Our poor showing with the early picks

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

No, you got it right the first time when you said...

Thanks. I knew you a few facts would burst your bubble.

[Jarka 767]

Thanks. I knew you a few facts would burst your bubble.

err, what are you talking about?

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

err, what are you talking about?

Just smile and slowly back away...

[The Emblem 1]

Well the preseason hasn't been an encouraging on, so all the talk is all about making big changes to the list.

So what changes could we expect to see in 2009?

Rucks:

Out - Jeff White, great athlete but basically got leglislated out of the game when they introduced the ruck circle

Out - Mark Jamar, lacks the mobility required

Borderline - John Meesen, will have to learn to play as ruckman, not a ruckrover

Keep - Paul Johnson, you've got to have at least one mature body on your list

Promote - Jake Spencer, will still need more time to develop his body strength

In - If 2008 turns into a shocker then Natanui is the obvious choice, otherwise we're forced into developing a 2nd/3rd stringer from another club. This would go against the "rebuilding grain"

So in 2009 the ruck stocks could still be poor as it is unrealistic to expect Spencer + 1 to be Seniors ready by then.

Forwards:

Out: Neitz - one of the club's great servants, but can't see his old knees going around again

Out: Miller - lacks the footy smarts as a CHB, can play lead-up CHF and doing so would be the only reason to keep him

Out: Yze - defensive pressure must now start from the FF and Yze does'nt provide enough of it

Out: Holland - a better player then I feel people give him credit for, but can't see us persisting with him beyond this year

Borderline: Robbo - we may squeeze one more year [contracted] out of him but defensive pressure will have to improve

Borderline: Green - FGS play him as a lead-up FP, or could be offered up as valuable trade-bait

Borderline: Weetra - physicality is an issue

Bordeline:Sylvia : - make or break year, has potential, will the MFC be able to develop our will he be offered up

Keep: Bate - Terrific young player, see him as a HFF who can play lead-up CHF as required

Keep: Davey - Fantastic player, and as much as we need extra zip in the midfield I think Aaron playing forward makes our defenders jobs that much easier as his pace creates pressure that causes a lot of turnovers between our CHF / Centre line

Keep: Dunn - I feel is underated by many MFC supporters...this guy has footy smarts. [I can see those words being thrown in my face a few times this year

Keep Newton - loved his mark against the Kangaroos, other MFC supporters hype him a lot, but I think he must improve his concentration levels, and needs to kick 2 to 3 goals a week to win me over.

Develop: Maric - will only be in his second year of development, to be an AFL player in the first two years is the exception, not the rule.

Develop: Garland - Need to see more of him before making a judgement call

Develop: Zomer - I think he's got potential, 2009 may still be a bit soon for him

Promote: Wonaemirri - I think he's got potential

In: CHF type along with AA ruckman should be our draft priorities

Lack of a true CHF may buy Green and/or Robbo some more time. Think the window for ther MFC trading Robbo has pretty much closed, although Green could still be of interest as could be a very damaging FP in a stronger forward set-up. Will be pinning hopes on Newton and to a lesser degree Zomer stepping up as KPP [ or Morton if keeps growing], think our small / utility forward stocks look quite good

Midfield:

Keep: Jones, bluey truscott this year?

Keep: McLean, bathurst?

Keep: Bartram, very important player, junior's successor

Keep: Moloney, will have to learn to be less predictable with his disposal [to the opposition]

Keep: Pettard, brave and skillfull

Keep: Buckley, adds much needed zip

Unsure: Bruce, bloody good player,but with disposal can let him down, could be offered up as trade bait

Out: Junior, one of my favourite players, but will he be able to go around again in 2009

Out: Johnson.C, make or break year...feel that the Buckley's of this world are overtaking him

Develop: Grimes, love to see what he's got

Develop: Morton, could become an Adam Goodes style of tall winger / ruck rover

Promote: Valenti, ball magnet

The midfield had good foundation's to build on, adding "a bit of zip" would put the icing on the cake

Defence:

Out: Whelan, terrific player, will make a huge difference when in the team for 08, but re 09 soft tissue injuries concern me

Out: Bode, lacks the requisite decision making and disposal skills

Out: Warnock, just don;t see him making it

Keep: Rivers, one of the best players on our list

Keep: Bell, has developed nicely as a HBF

Keep: Frawley, can see him developing into a fine player

Keep: Wheatley, an underrated player who I think has 3-4 more good years in him.

Keep: Carroll, does a very good job, a BP who has done a good job as a makeshift FB [like holding back the tide at some points last year]

Develop: McNamara, so young and yet could even have stamped himself as a regular by the end of the season

Develop: Martin, real potential as a KP back, will take time

Develop: Cheney, need to see more

Every man and his dog has been having pot shots at our defence. I actually think we have the potential makings of a very good defensive set up and look forward to them coming into their own in 2009 and beyond

Summary

Outs: Neitz, Yze, McDonald, Holland, White, Johnson.C, Jamar, Miller, Whelan, Bode, Warnock

Borderline: Meesen, Weetra, Robertson

Promote: Valenti, Wonaemirri, Spencer

Potential Trade Bait: Bruce, Green, Sylvia

In 2009 the ruck stocks could still be poor as it is unrealistic to expect Spencer + 1 to be Seniors ready by then.

Lack of a true CHF may buy Green and/or Robbo some more time.. Will be pinning hopes on Newton and to a lesser degree Zomer stepping up as KPP [ or Morton if keeps growing], think our small / utility forward stocks look quite good.

The midfield had good foundation's to build on, adding "a bit of zip" would put the icing on the cake.

I actually think we have the potential makings of a very good defensive set up and look forward to them coming into their own in 2009 and beyond.

Described by Occo as "worst post of the year"...still got the Ostrich mentality??????????????????

[Dee Dee 1,108]

DR, I really think you're beeing a bit harsh on Weetra.

I thought he was OK.

First game with this rabble, if it was me I'd have asked the coach to excuse me at half time because I wanted to go down to Sandy and play with some good young players.

He stuck it out and played well enough to get a game next week.

[beelzebub 23,380]

DeeReaming...I think we may yet come back to vist your original list just a few more times !! lol

My only suggestion for DB at the moment is to go take out a vid at your local blocbuster....its called Logans Run !!

then have a thought or two about 2009

[The Emblem 1]

DR, I really think you're beeing a bit harsh on Weetra.

I thought he was OK.

First game with this rabble, if it was me I'd have asked the coach to excuse me at half time because I wanted to go down to Sandy and play with some good young players.

He stuck it out and played well enough to get a game next week.

DD, your right...Weetra stood up much better then I expected and at times showed a bit of bloody gumption. Have not amended the original post as its interesting to see what changes in attitude there will be [mine and other poster's] come the end of the season compared to thoughts prior to it.