I was mainly watching the World Cup qualifier v Japan.

Socceroos totally outplayed, but incredibly scored the only goal with a coupla minutes left.

10 hours ago, DubDee said:

Remember when Naughton was the best young fwd in the league?

What has happened? doesn’t even mark much anymore

Roo mrk 2

10 hours ago, DubDee said:

Remember when Naughton was the best young fwd in the league?

What has happened? doesn’t even mark much anymore

Zero football smarts. Often undoes his (occasional) good work by making stupid decisions.

10 hours ago, DubDee said:

Remember when Naughton was the best young fwd in the league?

What has happened? doesn’t even mark much anymore

It's interesting actually, for all the talk about our need for a gun forward, the reality is in 202, as Daniel Hoyne often notes, the key is what happens with the ball (ie ball movement from the back half, kicking skills, ability to hit targets indside 50 and kicking skills of half back flanks, mids and wingers) not ahead of it.

That's to say gun tall forwards are no longer critical in the way they were 10 years ago.

Carlton is the obvious example as they have arguably two of the best key forwards in the AFL and they can't score.

In contrast the two best sides atm, the pies and the lions, don't have a dominant key tall (though Miochek whilst not that tall plays tall - a terrific player).

It's just so hard now for key forwards to take contested marks inside 50 and they rarely get clear leading lanes that players like Dunstall used to such great effect.

In terms of forwards, its hard to argue that the most important players are now small to medium forward amd mid/forwards like Elliot, Bailey, Koz, Papley etc etc.

4 minutes ago, binman said:

It's interesting actually, for all the talk about our need for a gun forward, the reality is in 202, as Daniel Hoyne often notes, the key is what happens with the ball (ie ball movement from the back half, kicking skills, ability to hit targets indside 50 and kicking skills of half back flanks, mids and wingers) not ahead of it.

That's to say gun tall forwards are no longer critical in the way they were 10 years ago.

Carlton is the obvious example as they have arguably two of the best key forwards in the AFL and they can't score.

In contrast the two best sides atm, the pies and the lions, don't have a dominant key tall (though Miochek whilst not that tall plays tall - a terrific player).

It's just so hard now for key forwards to take contested marks inside 50 and they rarely get clear leading lanes that players like Dunstall used to such great effect.

In terms of forwards, its hard to argue that the most important players are now small to medium forward amd mid/forwards like Elliot, Bailey, Koz, Papley etc etc.

Agreed. I wonder if this has changed not in the last 10 years but more in the last two! Feels like the blues looked really dangerous with Mckay and Curnow half a second ago. Do you think this is why JVR is so at sea in 2025?

20 hours ago, Demonland said:

gw$?Follow all the action from every Round 13 clash excluding the Dees as the 2025 AFL Premiership Season rolls on. With Melbourne playing in the final match of the round on King's Birthday, all eyes turn to the rest of the competition. Who are you tipping to win? And more importantly, which results best serve the Demons’ finals aspirations? Join the discussion and keep track of the matches that could shape the ladder and impact our run to September.

well i woulda tipped footscray, but dingley did a number on em... it might be the better result for the mfc?

elsewhere...

• crom?

• bloods?

• puddy tatts

• gw$?

• kangas?

• peptides?

• them

we really need to win first and foremost, and otherwise it's a toss of the coin as to whether gw$ / pear is a better result for us

37 minutes ago, binman said:

In terms of forwards, its hard to argue that the most important players are now small to medium forward amd mid/forwards like Elliot, Bailey, Koz, Papley etc etc.

i'd argue that has been the case since dusty martin was the tigs' biggest weapon 2017-2021

if trac or clangerfilled could kick, they'd be the same for us and the puddy tatts

21 minutes ago, Wells 11 said:

Do you think this is why JVR is so at sea in 2025?

It's a factor.

I think a related challenge for jvr is, as ive noted in other posts, two of the key metrics for tall forwards is ensuring their opponent doesn't take intercept marks and bringing the ball to ground so the smalls and mediums can go to work.

By definition that involves lots of tight, shoulder to shoulder battles which can't be easy for a young key forward.

But honestly I think the main challenge for JVR is that he is still young, particularly for a key forward.

They're cliches because they're true - key tall take longer to get to their peak than other players and improvement is not linear.

For proof of that just look at JVRs peers, ie other young key forwards - JUH, Amiss, Logan McDonald, Amartey, Treacy, Philthorp, Neale, Cadman.

All have had periods with big dips in their performances.

Treacy is a good comparison to JVR. He's been terrific this year, after a good 2024. But he's had his dips too - and its work noting thst he's almost a year older than JVR.

JVR is a gun and IMO will be back soon playing elite footy for the dees.

Edited June 5Jun 5 by binman

all good points and a consequence of evolution.

As a player is recognised they are also treated differently, double teamed etc and so it is more important than ever that the team they are in and the structures and patterns they are in also evolve.

Cameron seems to ba an example.

Teamates must run patterns that leave more space for Key forward. Teamates must take opponents out of contests to create space or alternatively use the space created by KF. Teamates must block legally and run across contests. Aplyer like Fritsch or Jefferson can use a late run at a contest if their opponent goes to the contest with JVR.

OF course the umpires will also evolve and when they once paid chopping free kicks in contests they rarely do now. BBB was a beneficiary of this while at North but inexplicably the interpretation seemed to change when he joined Deees. All KF were affected (Naughton esp) as they then paid it less.

I am not criticising umpires but maintain that the club should have sessions with the umpires to establish what we are doing wrong to not receive free kicks for what seem to be infraction s against us while we give way similar frees.

12 hours ago, DubDee said:

Remember when Naughton was the best young fwd in the league?

What has happened? doesn’t even mark much anymore

Imagine if we had him locked in for 8yrs at a 1m a season?

We would be burning the joint down.

🔥🔥🔥

Edited June 6Jun 6 by YesitwasaWin4theAges

1 hour ago, binman said:

It's a factor.

I think a related challenge for jvr is, as ive noted in other posts, two of the key metrics for tall forwards is ensuring their opponent doesn't take intercept marks and bringing the ball to ground so the smalls and mediums can go to work.

By definition that involves lots of tight, shoulder to shoulder battles which can't be easy for a young key forward.

But honestly I think the main challenge for JVR is that he is still young, particularly for a key forward.

They're cliches because they're true - key tall take longer to get to their peak than other players and improvement is not linear.

For proof of that just look at JVRs peers, ie other young key forwards - JUH, Amiss, Logan McDonald, Amartey, Treacy, Philthorp, Neale, Cadman.

All have had periods with big dips in their performances.

Treacy is a good comparison to JVR. He's been terrific this year, after a good 2024. But he's had his dips too - and its work noting thst he's almost a year older than JVR.

JVR is a gun and IMO will be back soon playing elite footy for the dees.

1 hour ago, dpositive said:

all good points and a consequence of evolution.

As a player is recognised they are also treated differently, double teamed etc and so it is more important than ever that the team they are in and the structures and patterns they are in also evolve.

Cameron seems to ba an example.

Teamates must run patterns that leave more space for Key forward. Teamates must take opponents out of contests to create space or alternatively use the space created by KF. Teamates must block legally and run across contests. Aplyer like Fritsch or Jefferson can use a late run at a contest if their opponent goes to the contest with JVR.

OF course the umpires will also evolve and when they once paid chopping free kicks in contests they rarely do now. BBB was a beneficiary of this while at North but inexplicably the interpretation seemed to change when he joined Deees. All KF were affected (Naughton esp) as they then paid it less.

I am not criticising umpires but maintain that the club should have sessions with the umpires to establish what we are doing wrong to not receive free kicks for what seem to be infraction s against us while we give way similar frees.

AFL at the elite level has evolved into something different and separate from the U 18 version.

Elite key forwards are drafted as they can win 1-1 contests, which rarely happen at the elite level. Instead, they need to be able to compete against at least 2. Therefore, they need to be bigger, or a different type of player.

Of course it’s due to the defensive structures all teams employ, but we need to get smarter when trying to score.

Other teams are coming up with better tactics to separate the defence – Collingwood, Brisbane, Geelong, Gold Coast.

Everyone else seems to be doing versions of these, or banging their head against the wall in the time honoured fashion.

8 minutes ago, DiscoStu17 said:

AFL at the elite level has evolved into something different and separate from the U 18 version.

Elite key forwards are drafted as they can win 1-1 contests, which rarely happen at the elite level. Instead, they need to be able to compete against at least 2. Therefore, they need to be bigger, or a different type of player.

Of course it’s due to the defensive structures all teams employ, but we need to get smarter when trying to score.

Other teams are coming up with better tactics to separate the defence – Collingwood, Brisbane, Geelong, Gold Coast.

Everyone else seems to be doing versions of these, or banging their head against the wall in the time honoured fashion.

We are doing that much better (ie sepeatimf decences) much better this year, certainly in our wins.

3 hours ago, binman said:

In contrast the two best sides atm, the pies and the lions, don't have a dominant key tall (though Miochek whilst not that tall plays tall - a terrific player).

It's just so hard now for key forwards to take contested marks inside 50 and they rarely get clear leading lanes that players like Dunstall used to such great effect.

In terms of forwards, its hard to argue that the most important players are now small to medium forward amd mid/forwards like Elliot, Bailey, Koz, Papley etc etc.

However, 12 of the top 15 goalkickers for 2025 are still tall. Only Jamie Elliott, Jack Higgins and Ben Long are smaller forwards in the top-15 list.

What is interesting is how accurate the top 15 are.

Name	Team	Games	Goals	Behinds	Score	Marks	Shots	%	Last Game
Jeremy Cameron	Geelong	12	38	14	242	70	52	73.1	5 v West Coast, Round 12
Jamie Elliott	Collingwood	12	33	16	214	63	49	67.3	5 v Hawthorn, Round 12
Ben King	Gold Coast	11	32	13	205	36	45	71.1	1 v Fremantle, Round 12
Jesse Hogan	GWS	9	30	6	186	48	36	83.3	0 v Richmond, Round 12
Jack Higgins	St Kilda	12	29	9	183	26	38	76.3	1 v Melbourne, Round 12
Darcy Fogarty	Adelaide	11	28	5	173	56	33	84.8	2 v Sydney, Round 12
Riley Thilthorpe	Adelaide	12	27	15	177	68	42	64.3	2 v Sydney, Round 12
Jack Gunston	Hawthorn	10	26	15	171	58	41	63.4	1 v Western Bulldogs, Round 13
Charlie Curnow	Carlton	10	24	15	159	62	39	61.5	3 v GWS, Round 11
Nick Larkey	North Melbourne	11	24	11	155	45	35	68.6	1 v Collingwood, Round 11
Mabior Chol	Hawthorn	13	24	8	152	55	32	75.0	4 v Western Bulldogs, Round 13
Mitch Georgiades	Port Adelaide	11	24	18	162	60	42	57.1	3 v Fremantle, Round 11
Josh Treacy	Fremantle	12	23	11	149	62	34	67.6	0 v Gold Coast, Round 12
Ben Long	Gold Coast	10	23	13	151	50	36	63.9	1 v Fremantle, Round 12
Brody Mihocek	Collingwood	10	22	11	143	42	33	66.7	4 v Hawthorn, Round 12

15 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

However, 12 of the top 15 goalkickers for 2025 are still tall. Only Jamie Elliott, Jack Higgins and Ben Long are smaller forwards in the top-15 list.

What is interesting is how accurate the top 15 are.

Name	Team	Games	Goals	Behinds	Score	Marks	Shots	%	Last Game
Jeremy Cameron	Geelong	12	38	14	242	70	52	73.1	5 v West Coast, Round 12
Jamie Elliott	Collingwood	12	33	16	214	63	49	67.3	5 v Hawthorn, Round 12
Ben King	Gold Coast	11	32	13	205	36	45	71.1	1 v Fremantle, Round 12
Jesse Hogan	GWS	9	30	6	186	48	36	83.3	0 v Richmond, Round 12
Jack Higgins	St Kilda	12	29	9	183	26	38	76.3	1 v Melbourne, Round 12
Darcy Fogarty	Adelaide	11	28	5	173	56	33	84.8	2 v Sydney, Round 12
Riley Thilthorpe	Adelaide	12	27	15	177	68	42	64.3	2 v Sydney, Round 12
Jack Gunston	Hawthorn	10	26	15	171	58	41	63.4	1 v Western Bulldogs, Round 13
Charlie Curnow	Carlton	10	24	15	159	62	39	61.5	3 v GWS, Round 11
Nick Larkey	North Melbourne	11	24	11	155	45	35	68.6	1 v Collingwood, Round 11
Mabior Chol	Hawthorn	13	24	8	152	55	32	75.0	4 v Western Bulldogs, Round 13
Mitch Georgiades	Port Adelaide	11	24	18	162	60	42	57.1	3 v Fremantle, Round 11
Josh Treacy	Fremantle	12	23	11	149	62	34	67.6	0 v Gold Coast, Round 12
Ben Long	Gold Coast	10	23	13	151	50	36	63.9	1 v Fremantle, Round 12
Brody Mihocek	Collingwood	10	22	11	143	42	33	66.7	4 v Hawthorn, Round 12

Well Cameron, who whilst tall, does not play as a tradional key tall forward, or rarely does. He's really more a flanker. Nealeis the Cats key forward.

Meaning neither top 2 players in the coleman are key forward.

But, sure key talls are still important. And most of that list are key forwards.

But look at the average goals per game.

King is the leading goal scorer amongst the tall forwards.

At his current average, King will kick 61 goals for the home and away season.

Hogan won the coleman last year with 69.

And as i said neither the the pies or lions, one and two on the ladder, have a dominant key forward.

The crows are third and do have dominant key forwards, so are an outlier. But the key is still their fadt ball movement.

3 hours ago, binman said:

It's a factor.

I think a related challenge for jvr is, as ive noted in other posts, two of the key metrics for tall forwards is ensuring their opponent doesn't take intercept marks and bringing the ball to ground so the smalls and mediums can go to work.

By definition that involves lots of tight, shoulder to shoulder battles which can't be easy for a young key forward.

But honestly I think the main challenge for JVR is that he is still young, particularly for a key forward.

They're cliches because they're true - key tall take longer to get to their peak than other players and improvement is not linear.

For proof of that just look at JVRs peers, ie other young key forwards - JUH, Amiss, Logan McDonald, Amartey, Treacy, Philthorp, Neale, Cadman.

All have had periods with big dips in their performances.

Treacy is a good comparison to JVR. He's been terrific this year, after a good 2024. But he's had his dips too - and its work noting thst he's almost a year older than JVR.

JVR is a gun and IMO will be back soon playing elite footy for the dees.

I concur with your hope in Jvr

He has shown great talent in the past , so we know it's there.

I've seen him get down on himself after an error and he may struggle to keep his mind on the job. I've never questioned his resolve and commitment.

I think being dragged into ruck duties hasn't helped him focus on being a fwd. At least for the time being but it's why he may get the nod over others at times.

He seems to have toned down his aggression and I wonder if that's had an impact.

I've always wondered if he hits the ball at too much speed with his hands. Perhaps needs to just "drop" them back a millisecond prior to marking to cushion the impact.

And your right, he's still young. His body will mostly fill out some more and he will learn more tricks of the trade

So no astute supporter would write this kid off. And I do hope he comes back in such away to stick it up so many here.

Finally, has he played with Melksham in the fwd line yet? I'm wondering if with other fwds firing, it would take the pressure of Roo so as he can maybe just enjoy himself out there and be less anxious about being our \main scorer.

5 hours ago, Previously known as LITD. said:

I'm wondering if with other fwds firing, it would take the pressure of Roo so as he can maybe just enjoy himself out there and be less anxious about being our \main scorer.

That's a good point. He has said he want to be a leader and for much of the ladtb2 years has been our best key forward.

Perhaps he puts a bit too much pressure on himself and as you say if he doesn't feel he has to the man, so to speak, up forward he can play with a bot more freedom.

22 hours ago, BDA said:

very poor i50 delivery from harmes there

He can afford a few wastefully ones given his i50 in the GF turned the game and was one of the most influential kicks i have ever seen on the biggest stage

No banners allowed for either side tonight… apparently it’s too windy. Pfft amateurs. Weak as p***

🤩

nibbs taking zorko out? INJECT IT INTO MY VEINS

our former favourite has started well

Not much pressure in this game.

1 minute ago, ANG13 said:

Not much pressure in this game.

This game’s NUTS! I’m gassed just watching it.

The score review must be a welcome chance for a breather.

bears are so good to watch

Watching ANB hurts

If Trac had the finishing ability of Rayner he’d be the best player in the comp.

1 minute ago, RedLegs23 said:

If Trac had the finishing ability of Rayner he’d be the best player in the comp.

Watching lions not miss shots hurts even more