On 21/09/2024 at 10:03, Watson11 said:

This will be my last post on this topic as we seem to be at polar opposites.

It was sorry for not reading closely to the bottom but not sorry for having a shot at you.  

Your post is amplifying the anti-Tracc sentiment that has pervaded most Melbourne supporters based on an assumption that Tracc fed Morris and others the story.  It's fact that Morris/Barrett stated people inside the club leaked critical parts of the story. Are you OK with that?  Serious question.

Just to remind you, we know Tracc had "confidential" conversations about wanting the club to improve as his statement said "I voiced my concerns as a leader, wanting better for our club, playing group, and fans.  During this time, I have been in open communication with the player leadership group and club leaders to ensure we can work together to improve as a club. I make no apologies for wanting to better our club and contribute to our success both on and off the field."

Everything else written could be leaks from inside the club with some mayo on them to make Tracc look bad and to protect individuals inside the club making them look reasonable.  Morris/Barrett stated the Brand Tracc stuff was from the club. It's likely we have multiple leakers. The bits of your post that I strongly object to are highlighted, but every other bit copied below is just amplifying what the media has speculated on and is not a fact, and is mostly based on leaks from the club.  

Anyway, I'm out on this topic.  Hopefully all supporters can get behind everyone in the red and blue and support them next year and stop the divisive sniping at our only Norm Smith medallist.  Hopefully the club can also block up the sieve and weed out the people who leak confidential discussions.  That will be a starting point to resolve the dysfunction that we all saw.

"Tracc fed Morris' his laundry list of complaints, which, combined with inferences people have made from the 'reporting'  can be boiled down to, what:

- Tracc unhappy with how the club dealt with him post injury 

- Tracc unhappy the club not more successful 

- Tracc unhappy being at a club with fewer supporters than the 'big' clubs

- Tracc unhappy with the 'culture' at the club (with the inference widely accepted that translates to a party culture)

- Tracc unhappy with how clarry was 'handled", before and after his dramas

- Tracc unhappy with the 'professionalism' of teamates

Have I missed something?

Notice the common theme - 'tracc unhappy'.

Let's accept that that is how tracc genuinely feels. 

And let's accept that tracc clearly had an agenda in feeding Morris 

That's not the same as those issues being real.

But of course, it doesn't mean they aren't either - to some degree or other.

I can't stand Morris, but don't blame him writing a hit piece based on info tracc fed to him.

He is merely feeding an insatiable demand for gossip, and seemingly for information that confirms many dees 'supporters' henny penny complaints.

Morris is not a journalist, so has no interest in balance.

But it would be great if people did some critical thinking, and rather than just drinking the tracc aid"

Let's accept for a moment your charitable view that a club source leaked all the material to the media and the Petracca camp had nothing to do with it.

The media reported that Petracca wanted to be traded and his contract was the only thing preventing that, and that he wants to play for "a big club" in front of big crowds.

There was no denial of this by the Petracca camp and there hasn’t been since. If this wasn't his position then the club and Petracca would have been straight on the front foot to deny it, but Petracca's silence was conspicuous and all we ultimately got was the explanation you quoted.

I conclude that the substance of the story is true and who leaked it is less important. If it was the Petracca camp, which must be possible, then that is more damining.

Edited September 25, 2024Sep 25 by old55

On 11/09/2024 at 10:58, Lucifers Hero said:

I wonder if the AFLPA review is what did/didn't happen in the 2nd qtr.  Tracc went back onto the ground at approx the 8-10 min mark. 

iirc he was left on till half time approx 20 min without an interchange.  That seems a long stint even if no injury had occurred.   We will never know what additional damage/risk occurred during that 20 min. 

The AFLPA would rightly ask questions of doctors/sports science/coach why he had no interchange and no injury/welfare check during that time. 

If the doctors (mfc and afl) left it up to Trac to come off that is a lack of care.  He was in no condition to make that decision.  A duty of care suggests they should have brought him to the bench at regular intervals.  Gawn didn't help by telling Trac to 'toughen the **** up' when Trac struggled.  Maxi's own words.

In the post match press conf Goodwin said Trac was given pain relief.

iirc the AFL review concluded the process mfc/afl doctors followed was 'adequate'.   I wonder if the process is written?  Either way I suspect the process is moot on letting a player continue and is left up to medical discretion.  Only guessing but I doubt it allows for player discretion.  Even if it does doctors can't abdicate that responsibility.

The simple question is did the doctors do everything they could to safeguard his well being in those early stages?

An interesting task for the AFLPA.  

There is an ad on TV at the moment where Heeney takes a speccy on Petracca's back. Of course ball-player Heeney does not dig the knee in, he turns a bit to the side to complete the mark. If any duty of care is to be discussed re Petracca it should start with some of the poentially life-threatening football acts of digging the knee into a vulnerable part of an opponent's body.

Blaming the GPs for all of this is just - in the words of Jihn Kennedy, just kicking the can down the road.

On 19/09/2024 at 06:18, Skuit said:

Your metrics may be a bit different to those of the AFMA's, which didn't mention anything about journalism, or quality of, in bestowing the accolade: “No one has had a bigger presence in football this year, via television, radio and newspapers, than Kane Cornes. No one. Now or in the past.”

Tom Morris also got a gong, along with "AFL 360, hosted by Gerard Whateley and Mark Robinson, highlighted by powerful interviews with Melbourne superstar Christian Petracca." The AFMA doesn't seem to have a website, so it's a bit hard to work out who is giving awards to who and then reporting on those awards.  

I was getting ready to make a joke about quantity over quality but it isn't as funny when it is shown to be true.

4 hours ago, old55 said:

Let's accept for a moment your charitable view that a club source leaked all the material to the media and the Petracca camp had nothing to do with it.

The media reported that Petracca wanted to be traded and his contract was the only thing preventing that, and that he wants to play for "a big club" in front of big crowds.

There was no denial of this by the Petracca camp and there hasn’t been since. If this wasn't his position then the club and Petracca would have been straight on the front foot to deny it, but Petracca's silence was conspicuous and all we ultimately got was the explanation you quoted.

I conclude that the substance of the story is true and who leaked it is less important. If it was the Petracca camp, which must be possible, then that is more damining.

My take is slightly different, I think all the Petracca material was leaked to the Media, for the purpose of putting a Rocket up the Club. For the past 18 months-2 years, there have been problems off field, standards dropping, shall we say

Tracc had had enough, the continued silence was there to reinforce the point that he is dead serious. 
 

Gary Pert’s comments on SEN only made it worse…

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

My take is slightly different, I think all the Petracca material was leaked to the Media, for the purpose of putting a Rocket up the Club. For the past 18 months-2 years, there have been problems off field, standards dropping, shall we say

Tracc had had enough, the continued silence was there to reinforce the point that he is dead serious. 
 

Gary Pert’s comments on SEN only made it worse…

Destructive rather than constructive approach if true.

54 minutes ago, old55 said:

Destructive rather than constructive approach if true.

But the most effective, we have not been good enough for 3 years. We should have banked at least one more Flag in that time 

5 hours ago, old55 said:

Let's accept for a moment your charitable view that a club source leaked all the material to the media and the Petracca camp had nothing to do with it.

The media reported that Petracca wanted to be traded and his contract was the only thing preventing that, and that he wants to play for "a big club" in front of big crowds.

There was no denial of this by the Petracca camp and there hasn’t been since. If this wasn't his position then the club and Petracca would have been straight on the front foot to deny it, but Petracca's silence was conspicuous and all we ultimately got was the explanation you quoted.

I conclude that the substance of the story is true and who leaked it is less important. If it was the Petracca camp, which must be possible, then that is more damining.

I didn’t conclude the substance was true as I think who leaked the brand/big club stuff it is important. There could be other reasons Tracc was not prepared to talk to the media.

This is hypothetical but there is an ongoing investigation into JS text messages implicating other people that has been hanging over the club for 12 months.  That’s a disgrace in itself as it should have been investigated quickly. Maybe Tracc's gripe is around behaviours, management, how it ended up and how it has affected his and every players brand. 

Morris said the club leaked the brand stuff.  That’s important as maybe the leaker framed it that Tracc wants to play at a big club, rather than Tracc is worried about the impact on his brand from other far more sensitive issues.  I fundamentally don’t trust leakers as they have an agenda. Tracc can’t and shouldn’t talk to media about that.  This all ties into the other leaks to Morris (leadership says Tracc has problem with players, players say Tracc has problem with leadership).

I acknowledge my assumptions might be incorrect.  It’s just that I choose to look at alternative scenarios and give Tracc the benefit of doubt.  I don’t buy the Tracc went rogue argument.

Instead of acting like victims all the time, how about we all just harden up as a fanbase and just embrace the hate and/or disdain from other clubs and the media. 
 

David King throughout the period of 2016-2020 was our biggest defender and always had nothing to say but positive things on his radio segments. What did his positivity and “non [censored]” behavior do for us? We gotta stop wasting time and energy on clickbait journalism. 
 

As a tennis fan and someone who is also the last person on earth who would declare I am a fan of his, Novak Djokovic used the animosity and hate directed towards him his whole 20 year career and used it as ammunition to forge himself to arguable GOAT status in not only tennis, but world sports. Say what you want about him, but he just embraces the negativity and it is about time MFC uses this blueprint. We were never as loved as other clubs, even during the Stynes presidency era, so what’s more to gain calling out tribalistic behaviors against us? 

16 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

But the most effective, we have not been good enough for 3 years. We should have banked at least one more Flag in that time 

Yes, effectively our best player put himself on the trade market!

29 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

But the most effective, we have not been good enough for 3 years. We should have banked at least one more Flag in that time 

Absolute nonsense. And had we not held Trac to his contract you would have had egg all over your face...

13 minutes ago, Adam The God said:

Absolute nonsense. And had we not held Trac to his contract you would have had egg all over your face...

That’s your opinion, not mine. 
He was never going to leave. I said that the day the story broke…

27 minutes ago, old55 said:

Yes, effectively our best player put himself on the trade market!

No. He told the Club to clean up its act, or he would explore the trade market 

37 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

That’s your opinion, not mine. 
He was never going to leave. I said that the day the story broke…

 

36 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

No. He told the Club to clean up its act, or he would explore the trade market 

Only because so far no-one has been able to get organised enough to table a coherent offer.

He won't be in red and blue in 2026 - bookmark it.

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

But the most effective, we have not been good enough for 3 years. We should have banked at least one more Flag in that time 

No list, however talented, is ever entitled to a flag. A lot needs to go right on many fronts, and often requires plenty of luck too. 

Are you suggesting our list over the last 3 years has been comparable to that of recent dynasty teams? We don't even have a single established, consistent key forward. In no way has our list been that good. Dee's fans tend to overestimate the quality of our list holistically. Our top end talent is as good as it gets, but our middle of the road and below players are what prevents us from having Richmond or Hawthorn type success. 

Your expectations far outweigh the actual quality of our list.

4 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

My take is slightly different, I think all the Petracca material was leaked to the Media, for the purpose of putting a Rocket up the Club. For the past 18 months-2 years, there have been problems off field, standards dropping, shall we say

Tracc had had enough, the continued silence was there to reinforce the point that he is dead serious. 
 

Gary Pert’s comments on SEN only made it worse…

This is an interesting take and one that makes the most sense. That said, sadly, I feel the damage has been done, and there will be continued pressure from his advisers to leave the club.

56 minutes ago, Smokey said:

No list, however talented, is ever entitled to a flag. A lot needs to go right on many fronts, and often requires plenty of luck too. 

Are you suggesting our list over the last 3 years has been comparable to that of recent dynasty teams? We don't even have a single established, consistent key forward. In no way has our list been that good. Dee's fans tend to overestimate the quality of our list holistically. Our top end talent is as good as it gets, but our middle of the road and below players are what prevents us from having Richmond or Hawthorn type success. 

Your expectations far outweigh the actual quality of our list.

That all comes down to how much work the playing group was prepared to put in. 
there was to much playing off field….

1 hour ago, old55 said:

 

Only because so far no-one has been able to get organised enough to table a coherent offer.

He won't be in red and blue in 2026 - bookmark it.

If we play in September next year, I believe he will stay…

This thread reminds me of everything that is wrong with the human mind

Put it down, go to sleep, wake up for round one and let's see what actually happens.

Everything else now is pure speculation.

Hope we recruit some good ones.

2 hours ago, Smokey said:

No list, however talented, is ever entitled to a flag. A lot needs to go right on many fronts, and often requires plenty of luck too. 

Are you suggesting our list over the last 3 years has been comparable to that of recent dynasty teams? We don't even have a single established, consistent key forward. In no way has our list been that good. Dee's fans tend to overestimate the quality of our list holistically. Our top end talent is as good as it gets, but our middle of the road and below players are what prevents us from having Richmond or Hawthorn type success. 

Your expectations far outweigh the actual quality of our list.

Rubbish, our list was easily good enough to win at least one more flag over recent years. We have underachieved by not taking advantage of our position and the relative weakness of the rest of the comp.

9 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Rubbish, our list was easily good enough to win at least one more flag over recent years. We have underachieved by not taking advantage of our position and the relative weakness of the rest of the comp.

I agree, but both ideas can be right. We should have made prelims in 22 and 23 (that’s my measure - anything happens from there) and we didn’t, but we definitely should have cashed all chips to get a forward after 21. I love Ben Brown but he was never going to be what we needed.

From a very high level - we couldn’t convert our dominance and it in part led to our failure in those years.

19 minutes ago, rpfc said:

I agree, but both ideas can be right. We should have made prelims in 22 and 23 (that’s my measure - anything happens from there) and we didn’t, but we definitely should have cashed all chips to get a forward after 21. I love Ben Brown but he was never going to be what we needed.

From a very high level - we couldn’t convert our dominance and it in part led to our failure in those years.

Out of interest, who could we have got?

14 hours ago, VNightCityLegend said:

Instead of acting like victims all the time, how about we all just harden up as a fanbase and just embrace the hate and/or disdain from other clubs and the media. 
 

David King throughout the period of 2016-2020 was our biggest defender and always had nothing to say but positive things on his radio segments. What did his positivity and “non [censored]” behavior do for us? We gotta stop wasting time and energy on clickbait journalism. 
 

As a tennis fan and someone who is also the last person on earth who would declare I am a fan of his, Novak Djokovic used the animosity and hate directed towards him his whole 20 year career and used it as ammunition to forge himself to arguable GOAT status in not only tennis, but world sports. Say what you want about him, but he just embraces the negativity and it is about time MFC uses this blueprint. We were never as loved as other clubs, even during the Stynes presidency era, so what’s more to gain calling out tribalistic behaviors against us? 

I like the cut of your jib! What was your name again? 🙂

10 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Rubbish, our list was easily good enough to win at least one more flag over recent years. We have underachieved by not taking advantage of our position and the relative weakness of the rest of the comp.

If you took a poll on demonland about the relative strength of our list compared to the swans, pies, lions, cats and perhaps even the blues in 'recent years' (so, for the sake of argument lets say the last five years) I suspect, when the outliers are removed the median response would be at best the strength of our list is equal to those clubs.

And i think the consensus would be that all those clubs lists, with the possible exception of the blues,  were 'easily good enough to win at least one more flag over recent years'.

None have.

On the weekend the swans or lions will win their first flag in recent years, meaning those five clubs, all with lists good enough to win flags have won the grand total of three in 'recent years'.

And none more than one.

Which just reinforces Smokey's point about the difficulty of winning a flag, and how much had to go right to do so.

And it refutes the argument 'we have underachieved by not taking advantage of our position and the relative weakness of the rest of the comp'.

In fact, in the 10 years since the hawks won the last flag of their threepeat, the ONLY club that has taken 'advantage' of the strength of their list is the tigers with their 3 flags.

No other club in those ten years has won more than one flag (Dogs in 2016, Eagles in 2018, Dees in 2021, Cats in 2022, Pies in 2023 and swans or lions in 2024).

14 hours ago, VNightCityLegend said:

Instead of acting like victims all the time, how about we all just harden up as a fanbase and just embrace the hate and/or disdain from other clubs and the media. 
 

David King throughout the period of 2016-2020 was our biggest defender and always had nothing to say but positive things on his radio segments. What did his positivity and “non [censored]” behavior do for us? We gotta stop wasting time and energy on clickbait journalism. 
 

As a tennis fan and someone who is also the last person on earth who would declare I am a fan of his, Novak Djokovic used the animosity and hate directed towards him his whole 20 year career and used it as ammunition to forge himself to arguable GOAT status in not only tennis, but world sports. Say what you want about him, but he just embraces the negativity and it is about time MFC uses this blueprint. We were never as loved as other clubs, even during the Stynes presidency era, so what’s more to gain calling out tribalistic behaviors against us? 

Love the name and reference! 

 

Also, great post. The perennial victimisation of Melbourne supporters, by Melbourne supporters, is frankly laughable and one the reasons why we collectively have little credence amongst the wider AFL supporter community. As I've said previously, in the eyes of many Melbourne supporters, our failings are always attributable to some 'mitigating circumstance'. 

11 hours ago, binman said:

If you took a poll on demonland about the relative strength of our list compared to the swans, pies, lions, cats and perhaps even the blues in 'recent years' (so, for the sake of argument lets say the last five years) I suspect, when the outliers are removed the median response would be at best the strength of our list is equal to those clubs.

And i think the consensus would be that all those clubs lists, with the possible exception of the blues,  were 'easily good enough to win at least one more flag over recent years'.

None have.

On the weekend the swans or lions will win their first flag in recent years, meaning those five clubs, all with lists good enough to win flags have won the grand total of three in 'recent years'.

And none more than one.

Which just reinforces Smokey's point about the difficulty of winning a flag, and how much had to go right to do so.

And it refutes the argument 'we have underachieved by not taking advantage of our position and the relative weakness of the rest of the comp'.

In fact, in the 10 years since the hawks won the last flag of their threepeat, the ONLY club that has taken 'advantage' of the strength of their list is the tigers with their 3 flags.

No other club in those ten years has won more than one flag (Dogs in 2016, Eagles in 2018, Dees in 2021, Cats in 2022, Pies in 2023 and swans or lions in 2024).

None of which is to say it's not  disappointing we haven't won another flag thus far.

I'll go to my grave thinking we left one on the table in 2023.

But a key point is the era is not over.

We are in good shape to win another in the next few years.

The Cats, swans and lions have a model that rejects the idea of bottoming out and stocking up on pick ones, but rather staying in contention over a long period of time.

It is exactly that model that goody said he aimed to implement at the dees in his very first presser after being announced as senior coach.

And he has been good to his word.

Edited September 26, 2024Sep 26 by binman