46 minutes ago, ElDiablo14 said:

Yes, they have. Just didn't have a dynasty.

But for sure they have been consistent, which we should've been between 2017 - 2024. Instead we missed finals in 2017, 2019, 2020 and 2024.

I think you might be over-estimating the talent that was on our list during this time

A lot of similar mids and not many good forwards. We were nowhere close to the quality of the Cats and Hawks dynasties

1 minute ago, DubDee said:

I think you might be over-estimating the talent that was on our list during this time

A lot of similar mids and not many good forwards. We were nowhere close to the quality of the Cats and Hawks dynasties

And yet we were quite dominant during the H&A.

Perhaps we just missed on two great FA pick ups to change the whole story. For example a big KPF that could be the foundation of our maligned fwd line.

1 hour ago, ElDiablo14 said:

Can you imagine if we brought McKay to the fold?

I was praying we got him in 2022 when he was out of contract and it was clear that Curnow was Carlton's priority.

He's definitely a lump of a bloke. Just over two inches taller than our Petty, he's just shy of 40 pounds in bulk than Harrison is.

Interestingly that has not really translated to  success at goal scoring. 2021 was an outstanding year for the man mountain but other than that he's really only averaged two goals per game and he's had a consistent number of them each seasons ( goals that is).

Having said that with our lackluster bombing in delivery, I think someone like him would have at least helped the ball get to ground for our team of crumbers in Spargo, Anb Kozzie and Chin. As it's been, the opposition has often just put marked us there.

Although Sparticus has fallen off for two years and Nibbler had gone so that's not good. Kozzie is often sidelined. At least Chin unusually showed up on Sunday . So all that is another problem of it's own.

When we trialled Petty it showed how defenders don't easily become fwds. 

Defenders instincts are to spoil first rather than mark so it's easier for fwds to defend than the other way around. And as mentioned Petty just doesn't have the mass. Isaac Newton was no stooge if I do say so myself.

As skilled as Fritta is, a decent gust can move him out of position. And Jvr while getting stronger is more your athletic type leading fwd and is better at chf than ff. That and the fact that we often play the poor bloke in the middle. What has the club been thinking? Grundy and Jackson left ages ago and we are still using one of our only two fwds to ruck.

COMPLACENCY.

1 hour ago, DubDee said:

I think you might be over-estimating the talent that was on our list during this time

A lot of similar mids and not many good forwards. We were nowhere close to the quality of the Cats and Hawks dynasties

The talent on our 2020, 21, 22 and 23 is extremely high. Probably one of the best for decade. The trio of Max, Oliver and Tracca in their best form was rightly the envy of the land.

Our back line had a similar trio in Lever, May and Petty.

Our fwd line had Tmac, BBB and Fritta.

Our smalls in Snb, Spargo and Kozzie all managed over 30 goals each in 21.

Halfbacks like Gus. In and under ball magnets like Viney.

Our flanks were graced by players like Langdon.

It's pretty damn good.

I mean the talent was evidenced by almost two flags. It was just our fwd line letting us down. We just haven't had the fwd cattle to cover poor form and injuries.

23 saw no improvement on our failing fwd line.

Last year saw our midfield fall apart.

On Sunday we saw North Melbourne smash our once best defence in competition.

Maybe your referring to a different time in which case please ignore this rant.

Cheers DD.

12 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

The talent on our 2020, 21, 22 and 23 is extremely high. Probably one of the best for decade. The trio of Max, Oliver and Tracca in their best form was rightly the envy of the land.

Our back line had a similar trio in Lever, May and Petty.

Our fwd line had Tmac, BBB and Fritta.

Our smalls in Snb, Spargo and Kozzie all managed over 30 goals each in 21.

Halfbacks like Gus. In and under ball magnets like Viney.

Our flanks were graced by players like Langdon.

It's pretty damn good.

I mean the talent was evidenced by almost two flags. It was just our fwd line letting us down. We just haven't had the fwd cattle to cover poor form and injuries.

23 saw no improvement on our failing fwd line.

Last year saw our midfield fall apart.

On Sunday we saw North Melbourne smash our once best defence in competition.

Maybe your referring to a different time in which case please ignore this rant.

Cheers DD.

I agree with all that. I thought the previous poster saying we should have been a dynasty like Cats and Hawks was overestimating our list. We were very good in that time and won a flag. I just don’t think we were on that level. Those teams dealt with injuries and still won flags

we were not on the cats level.

we might have been on the hawks level but they were also gifted a period of draft compromise that definitely helped them. 

1 hour ago, ElDiablo14 said:

And yet we were quite dominant during the H&A.

Perhaps we just missed on two great FA pick ups to change the whole story. For example a big KPF that could be the foundation of our maligned fwd line.

When were we dominant apart from the first 10 rounds of 2022.

2023 we looked to have timed everything right in the backend and put a good run of games together with a key ingredient of settled side an minimal change, heading into September.  Then unfortunately came the double forward line blow of Petty and Melksham.

We were never near the dominant dynasties of the Cats of 2007-12 or the Hawks of 2011-15. 

Cats made prelim in 2004 and were minutes away from another prelim in 05 before divine intervention in the form of Nick Davis.  2006 they were at crisis point missing the 8 yet backed their coach. They won a flag had 8 All Australians , walked away with numerous individual awards that year and their dynasty was built off the back of good fortune with father sons and nailing 2 drafts to net - Scarlett, Corey, Ablett, Enright, Johnson, Chapman, Ling, Kelly, Bartel, Hawkins 

Hawks won one early in 2008 then regressed before making 5 prelims and winning three in a row, striking at the right time with Suns and GWS coming in preventing teams from topping up on top end talent in bulk and with players coming into their prime who had been selected off the back of nailing 2 drafts to net - Hodge, Mitchell, Brown, Roughead, Franklin and Lewis.

The only similarity we have is making a prelim in 2018 and regressing for two seasons but we never had draft halls to match those two. Trac, Oliver and Brayshaw very good players and Viney FS hard as a cats head and what every club needs. Our greatest error was not absolutely nailing the picks between 2007-9 which would have seen us set up for a long time and been able to ride out the impact of the expansion clubs

3 hours ago, jnrmac said:

If we only get one flag from this era it will be seen as a fail

To tell everyone who worked so hard for that premiership that they failed is rather offensive 

I don't read replies or reactions 

 

15 minutes ago, Pennant St Dee said:

When were we dominant apart from the first 10 rounds of 2022.

2023 we looked to have timed everything right in the backend and put a good run of games together with a key ingredient of settled side an minimal change, heading into September.  Then unfortunately came the double forward line blow of Petty and Melksham.

We were never near the dominant dynasties of the Cats of 2007-12 or the Hawks of 2011-15. 

Cats made prelim in 2004 and were minutes away from another prelim in 05 before divine intervention in the form of Nick Davis.  2006 they were at crisis point missing the 8 yet backed their coach. They won a flag had 8 All Australians , walked away with numerous individual awards that year and their dynasty was built off the back of good fortune with father sons and nailing 2 drafts to net - Scarlett, Corey, Ablett, Enright, Johnson, Chapman, Ling, Kelly, Bartel, Hawkins 

Hawks won one early in 2008 then regressed before making 5 prelims and winning three in a row, striking at the right time with Suns and GWS coming in preventing teams from topping up on top end talent in bulk and with players coming into their prime who had been selected off the back of nailing 2 drafts to net - Hodge, Mitchell, Brown, Roughead, Franklin and Lewis.

The only similarity we have is making a prelim in 2018 and regressing for two seasons but we never had draft halls to match those two. Trac, Oliver and Brayshaw very good players and Viney FS hard as a cats head and what every club needs. Our greatest error was not absolutely nailing the picks between 2007-9 which would have seen us set up for a long time and been able to ride out the impact of the expansion clubs

Well Tassie is coming maybe we could seize the opportunity just like the Hawks. 😅 

 

14 minutes ago, ElDiablo14 said:

Well Tassie is coming maybe we could seize the opportunity just like the Hawks. 😅 

 

the double blow for the rest of the competition - and the advantage it created for hawks and cats - was the doubling of free agency with the northern franchises coming in at the same time

so teams like ours, aints, etc. not only didn't have access to high quality draft kids but also lost players consistently to free agency to the best clubs; we lost our key defensive pillars in rivers and frawley within two years of each other

that's a hammer blow; imagine taking lever and may out of our side in two consecutive years

11 minutes ago, whatwhat say what said:

the double blow for the rest of the competition - and the advantage it created for hawks and cats - was the doubling of free agency with the northern franchises coming in at the same time

so teams like ours, aints, etc. not only didn't have access to high quality draft kids but also lost players consistently to free agency to the best clubs; we lost our key defensive pillars in rivers and frawley within two years of each other

that's a hammer blow; imagine taking lever and may out of our side in two consecutive years

Not to mention clubs now have to pay much higher draft pick capital for FS then the Cats paid for Scarlet, Ablett and Hawkins.

Without the FS the way it was back then the Cats would not have been able to take all of them

4 hours ago, jnrmac said:

1. I do

2. No they're not

3. It should at least be multiple Grand Finals like our plan was set up to do. We haven't won a final in Melbourne since 2018...We in fact have lost every once since 2018. Knocked in straight sets two years running. 

Feel free to relive the glory of 2021. It was great. But we didn't get to see it live and we have flubbed every final since. 

BS about an even competition is just that.

1. Well then you can say “if we only win one flag I’ll consider it a failure”.

2. Yes they are. The competition in 2000 was so different to what it is now. The evenness through the ladder right now is unprecedented (we won 11 games last year and finished 14th, for example). The gap between the best and the rest is smaller than it ever has been. It’s “BS” just as much as the assertion that multiple flags was the requirement.

3. Multiple flags is dominance. The sides who’ve done it recently will go down in history for their efforts. But that’s my point - instead of viewing them as the benchmark we were supposed to meet, they should be viewed as the sides who exceed the norm.

And your last bit is I think the underlying issue. I think you and the others who agree with you are just frustrated that our flag came in 2021. The benchmark isn’t a second flag, you just want to replicate it in a normal Melbourne year. It reads like you’re criticising me for “reliving” 2021, as if it’s a crime to reflect positively on it. 

Edited Thursday at 03:024 days by titan_uranus

Can you imagine this thread sat evening if we go 0-3, then the week after if we go 0-4. 
 

Can we double the page count in a 7 day run? 

2 minutes ago, GS_1905 said:

Can you imagine this thread sat evening if we go 0-3, then the week after if we go 0-4. 
 

Can we double the page count in a 7 day run? 

double? quadruple!

2 minutes ago, whatwhat say what said:

double? quadruple!

5 hours ago, DubDee said:

I agree with all that. I thought the previous poster saying we should have been a dynasty like Cats and Hawks was overestimating our list. We were very good in that time and won a flag. I just don’t think we were on that level. Those teams dealt with injuries and still won flags

Thsnks DD.

I think if we didn't have the ability to be a dynasty club ( gee I loved that show... probably beyond your time) we must have gone very, very close. And it was the perfect storm with most of our marque players circa 25 yo. I think you hit your prime at 25 to 27 as an AFL player and sustain it for three or four years.

As such we our now seeing several players declining. However I think you maintain a lot of your skills and don't change too much to the age of 30. Then you do start to decline although in this day and age not as much . But of course the injuries hit. Look at May and Lever. I wonder if the game is faster and more taxing now? This would be a great thread. Players are protected a lot more today and not straining themselves as builders labourers on weekdays.

But players are more focused on diet and fitness than yesteryear with a multitude of things and people to help them. As such they get to play longer than before . ( Fletcher at Essendon defied modern science).

I also think they are more motivated too with the game being  much more lucrative. Gone are the days when the bloke who unblocked your dunny was the same one you cheered on from the stands the next day.

It's a million dollar a year job with some pretty good holiday weeks and perks. Last time I checked, I didn't get an os all paid for trip. Some even have token jobs in a business that just has their name in the lobby. And the sponsorships are a tad more lucrative than a packet of Footy franks on the occasional football show. Although as devil's advocate, I could say they'll need that cash for a rainy day and maybe l dodgy hip, knee, rotator cuff and ankle that comes apart every four years. So there's that.

I do wonder if the temptation of offers and subsequent changes are hindrance to the dynasties we used to see? Again another thread perhaps. Loyalty although expensive, is available to be bought. (Hopefully that is as ironic as I meant it). Sadly for reasons I won't discuss, I think we have seen a few toy with the idea of leaving. Not a great thing for dynasties and especially for one's own club morale and motivation. 

But yea I think we had on this ( that included the three horseman of a generational All Australian Ruckmen and two of the best mids this club has ever seen) a chance to be one. And for reasons I mentioned here in other posts, we blew it. Plain and sadly, simple. Cheers DD. 

Ps I enjoy your posts.

 

Edited Thursday at 06:453 days by leave it to deever

5 hours ago, DubDee said:

I thought the previous poster saying we should have been a dynasty like Cats and Hawks was overestimating our list.

I thought it was overestimating our organisation 

1 hour ago, leave it to deever said:

Thsnks DD.

I think if we didn't have the ability to be a dynasty club ( gee I loved that show... probably beyond your time) we must have gone very, very close. And it was the perfect storm with most of our marque players circa 25 yo. I think you hit your prime at 25 to 27 as an AFL player and sustain it for three or four years.

As such we our now seeing several players declining. However I think you maintain a lot of your skills and don't change too much to the age of 30. Then you do start to decline although in this day and age not as much . But of course the injuries hit. Look at May and Lever. I wonder if the game is faster and more taxing now? This would be a great thread. Players are protected a lot more today and not straining themselves as builders labourers on weekdays.

But players are more focused on diet and fitness than yesteryear with a multitude of things and people to help them. As such they get to play longer than before . ( Fletcher at Essendon defied modern science).

I also think they are more motivated too with the game being  much more lucrative. Gone are the days when the bloke who unblocked your dunny was the same one you cheered on from the stands the next day.

It's a million dollar a year job with some pretty good holiday weeks and perks. Last time I checked, I didn't get an os all paid for trip. Some even have token jobs in a business that just has their name in the lobby. And the sponsorships are a tad more lucrative than a packet of Footy franks on the occasional football show. Although as devil's advocate, I could say they'll need that cash for a rainy day and maybe l dodgy hip, knee, rotator cuff and ankle that comes apart every four years. So there's that.

I do wonder if the temptation of offers and subsequent changes are hindrance to the dynasties we used to see? Again another thread perhaps. Loyalty although expensive, is available to be bought. (Hopefully that is as ironic as I meant it). Sadly for reasons I won't discuss, I think we have seen a few toy with the idea of leaving. Not a great thing for dynasties and especially for one's own club morale and motivation. 

But yea I think we had on this ( that included the three horseman of a generational All Australian Ruckmen and two of the best mids this club has ever seen) a chance to be one. And for reasons I mentioned here in other posts, we blew it. Plain and sadly, simple. Cheers DD. 

Ps I enjoy your posts.

 

Cheers for the reply, nice to have a amicable chat on here

One thing i’ll say regarding when players peak. Luke hodge had one ‘lucky’ flag at Trac’s age. A lot can happen after 28. I hope we can keep the group together as it’s the most talented group we’ve had in decades 

Who knows what from here?!

25 minutes ago, DubDee said:

nice to have a amicable chat on here

This gave me a chuckle.

I've been guilty of the odd angry post but I sometimes wonder if it's a prerequisite to be all riled up at some poor sod to be allowed here.

Luckily as Demon's supporters, we are a pretty thick skinned bunch. 

2023 was the one that got away, that will hurt for ever. 

10 hours ago, jnrmac said:

1. I do

2. No they're not

3. It should at least be multiple Grand Finals like our plan was set up to do. We haven't won a final in Melbourne since 2018...We in fact have lost every once since 2018. Knocked in straight sets two years running. 

Feel free to relive the glory of 2021. It was great. But we didn't get to see it live and we have flubbed every final since. 

BS about an even competition is just that.

No wonder they haven't, all the pressure that the supporter base has put on them. Goody actually spoke about that pressure last night. These players and coaches are human. 

11 hours ago, Flowergirl said:

No wonder they haven't, all the pressure that the supporter base has put on them. Goody actually spoke about that pressure last night. These players and coaches are human. 

Pressure to perform will always be there. It's part of the job.

2 hours ago, KozzyCan said:

Pressure to perform will always be there. It's part of the job.

I know. Many teams haven't handled it. I'm just asking people be less entitled and realise that the players and coaches are human beings.

21 hours ago, DubDee said:

I agree with all that. I thought the previous poster saying we should have been a dynasty like Cats and Hawks was overestimating our list. We were very good in that time and won a flag. I just don’t think we were on that level. Those teams dealt with injuries and still won flags

We had injuries too, we just needed to tweak the game plan, the bit that’s still causing us grief today.

20 hours ago, Flowergirl said:

No wonder they haven't, all the pressure that the supporter base has put on them. Goody actually spoke about that pressure last night. These players and coaches are human. 

This is hilarious. And pathetic at the same time

It's a pressure industry. Everyone has it, If you don't like it get out