Our midfield were getting smashed all night bar the last few centre bounces.  Feel like we're one gun midfielder short at this stage in our evolution.  Maybe Rivers should be moved in there whilst Petracca is tagged. Brayshaw gone hurts us 😟

16 hours ago, demon3165 said:

Looked good I must say.

Yep , I'd say the apple didn't fall too far.

16 hours ago, leave it to deever said:

True but the 61 to 41 inside fifties for us has a tired same old Dees feel about it.

Once again inaccurate kicking against Carlton cost us a game

That goal that Kozzie missed was strange. Running into an open goal he looked away from it and then kicked. No wonder.

The blues did well to flood our fwd line most of the night I guess.

And our midfield allowed theirs to bomb it into theirs asap.

I guess credit due to the fightback. It's hard to credit a team that doesn't score at all in the first quarter though.

We started like that in three of our last four games. I know we finish strong but.....

Something is broken with those beginnings.

I still was impressed with the recovery, considering how poor the early play actually was on the night. Our youth will assist the whole team to make amends, given near-continuous exposure to the level and its demands and that, of course, will set them up with a clearer role within the team. The 'come-back' was incredible!

2 hours ago, demon3165 said:

I will go the other way if the 5 day break affected us why did we run all over them, they kicked 4 goal 3 and we kicked 8 goals 9 after half time so I don't think that was the real problem.

Maybe the first quarter slow start was more mental than physical.  They just didn’t look sharp at all.  
And, most of the night nothing we tried seemed to come off … yes,  fumbles but also “unlucky” bounces.

The two “deliberate oob” were just appalling decisions.  The first had the player tackled in the process of kicking so way off balance, the second just clueless.  Then to rub it in, Carlton did several in the last half when they started to struggle and none were paid.  

1 hour ago, binman said:

Agree with all comments.

An interesting factor re: their centre clearance goals in the first is how aggressive we were with our set up.

We seemed to roll the dice to try and win some clean centre clearances.

If so, we lost that particular craps game.

Yep, this was my view too.

Hugely aggressive set ups.

I kept thinking we'll have to go ultra defensive at this next centre bounce, and then we'd leave the entire defensive side of the stoppage open. Really poor work IMV.

Sometimes you have to stem the bleeding.

And if we're defence first, let's stop the momentum by not allowing them to win centre clearance.

1 hour ago, Pennant St Dee said:

A loose man behind the stoppage is not a problem in the wet, most teams try and surge it forward by any means in the wet and by putting more numbers up to the stoppage you run the risk getting caught inside.

Levers second half display also puts your theory to bed he was very good taking intercept marks as he does in the dry.

Hot start where we were beaten at the CBDs Carlton got an unusually high number of goals from Centre clearances last night

But we put Rivers and Bowey in some silly hole where they couldn’t do anything in attack and could only defend one certain play (hacked kick wide, not a difficult kick to defend to begin with).

All it did was get Rivers crushed around the head when a long kick sat on him.

With the ball bouncing around stoppages in wet weather why be one short at the contest? 

Carlton don’t have speed in the middle either, Walsh has a bit of toe but generally doesn’t hurt you too much. Going one short allowed them to move it around by hands and get a clean kick. 

In the last 10 minutes the defenders all pushed up and helped win it from stoppage. 

 

1 hour ago, djr said:

I totally agree. I thought Taj made a huge impact in the last quarter. He is definitely in our best 22. He is getting better and better. Billings played the link-man/transition role very well. 

So who comes out for Salo? And does McAdam not fit in?

I think Woey is a good sub because he's shown he can play half back or half back. It provides great flexibility for us.

I don't think he's best 22 though.

21 minutes ago, Fritta and Turner said:

Was out for dinner so missed the first quarter and have just watched the replay.  I was expecting some absolute howlers but I thought we played ok - just didnt score.

I thought our defence was a touch selfish and could have given each other more support. 

Fritta has so many half chances that come to nothing.

Gawn doesnt need to get angry but rather get physical.

If you want to keep Weitering out of the game dont kick it to his opponent.

This 100%.

We did it far too often.

4 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

I don’t have them handy but I recall Collingwood knocking off Adelaide last year and Carlton knocking off Sydney in 2022 off 5 day breaks. And obviously we won a 5 day break in Adelaide in round 4, and also won off a 5 day break last year (Richmond into North round 7).

Meanwhile Adelaide just won a showdown off a 5 day break, and Brisbane put in a shocker on Anzac Day Vs GWS off a 5 day break.

I honestly don’t think 5 day breaks are as bad as what people make them out to be. It’s the accumulated condensed breaks that probably trouble clubs.

The Blues were shot in that last quarter. If anything we had the advantage. Let that percolate. 

Has anyone come with a reason why for three of our last four games we really only showed up towards the ends of them?

I'm mean full credit for seeing the games out and all but we do have a problem.

20 minutes ago, Binmans PA said:

So who comes out for Salo? And does McAdam not fit in?

I think Woey is a good sub because he's shown he can play half back or half back. It provides great flexibility for us.

I don't think he's best 22 though.

Yeah I will tone down the dial a bit: best 23.

4 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Carlton was playing their 3rd game in 13 days. We have no excuse.

Yeah true that. 

8 hours ago, seventyfour said:

Three years from now, Gawn and May will be gone, possibly Viney too, and players like Trac, Salem, Langdon, Lever, ANB will all be over 30. We'll be bottoming out when Tasmania have first access to all the draft talent. A rebuild will take an eternity.

The coaches and the players need to get this [censored] figured out. I can deal with the second half of the decade being [censored] if we can win a [censored] final or two this year.

Yep, and many supporters will be thinking "why didn't I enjoy it while we were good?"

Edited May 10, 20241 yr by Clayton van Oliver

3 hours ago, Deespicable said:

While I like the fact that you have spotted the key changes, please don't try and make out that Goody is a clever coach.

We are now in an era where the coaches train players in their three parts of the ground and generally are way to scared to rock the boat and switch them. In the old days when players actually had a direct opponent and not a zone area to man, coaches would swing players who were getting beaten around all the time - the Rev was a master of it, while further back Barass made his reputation on it.

Not for the first time this year Petty was getting beaten, as was Turner - both defenders by trait. Weitering is a great player, so Petty was always going to be up against it,  McGovern had Fritters measure, even Cincotta was chasing down Kozzie. Down back T.Mac had made two massive howlers and was coming off a five-day break and is 31. At what point did the coach think, hey I'll send Turner or Petty back and bring T-Mac forward or if that doesn't work, take T.Mac off early so we had more run. That is not a slight on T-Mac, he's been pretty handy this year, but he's 31 and coming off a game where he had to run everywhere to keep up with Cameron and that's they type of scenario when five days can be a factor. You are allowed to switch players or sub them off - have a look at what Freo did last week - they played Fyfe as the sub so that he could play a full game tonight because there was just a five-day break. That's smart management. Goody has never understood that stuff.

True, Goody figured that given Trac couldn't get it in the midfield he'd send him forward - that in itself is a huge lightbulb moment for Goody. And after kicking our first two and getting the momentum back, what did Goody do - he watched as Trac was taken off right in front of him because of rotations - don't worry about the fact that we were finally on a roll and our forwards were gaining confidence having Trac around. Goody allowed the same thing to happen in the third term. It was only in the last term when blind freddie could see that Trac was the factor that he left him on the entire quarter as full forward.

Using ANB as a Walsh tag was also in the captain obvious category. ANB has always been our fittest runner and is the only player with the tank that could go with him. Yes it required a restructure and yes I should give more credit to Goody for allowing it to happen. But don't tell me it was revolutionary. What should happen now is that Goody should start thinking are there any other gun midfielders who we can use ANB on to quell - most likely after halftime when tiredness creeps in for most - Lachie Neale rd 16 is one I'd have in mind for ANB. There's no need for it to happen every week - just use it was a weapon when needed to break up our predictability.

What I do give Goody credit for is that he seems to have the players' support - I think in his desperation to cover up any of his own misdemeanours, we the public don't really get to see the confident supportive character that I suspect he is behind the scenes.

 

 

Whether Goody is or isn't a clever coach isn't really my point - there are enough threads on that already.

My point was more that we saw some different moves that worked:

• Trac is an obvious one that has been used before (but robs the midfield). 
• But the use of ANB was a big change.  If you listen to Sam Mitchell speak on Melbourne he seems ANB as our most important player in terms of link up play / score involvements.  I wonder if it is also due to his ability to cover trac running forward?  Maybe releasing ANB into the midfield can't really happen unless trac is forward?  
• Langdon was used differently last night (seemed to be more forward)
• Use of extra man behind play (I think) was put away when we needed to score - I wonder if we could tinker with that during game and not just when we're trying to run a team down at the end.

My main point is, the coaches (it's not just Goody after all) are experimenting more than usual (admittedly being down by 7 goals gives them no other option) and it is working.  Which I suspect gives them reason and confidence to continue to tinker and experiment in future.  I hope anyway.

 

You make some interesting points.  I don't agree on TMac - he's been very good and is prone to make the occasional error / howler.  His fitness is his strength - I don't think starting him as the sub makes the difference in terms of the errors.  Our defence was under a lot of pressure!  And I certainly don't think he has the agility to play forward anymore.  I think if we wanted more run they could put Petty / Turner back and sub T Mac as you say but I think they knew that he wasn't going that bad - our midfield were getting done at centre clearance and that's how they were scoring.

Clearly Petty was well beaten last night and so arguably a change should have been made.  Having said that he did take a big pack mark in the last.  If he had of kicked that straight (was a pretty easy one) we would have won the game.  So we weren't far off.  I get the sense they know Petty 'has it'.  They just have to continue to play him and he'll get there.  

 

What a joke

The Match Review Officer graded the incident as careless conduct, low impact and high contact, drawing a $3750 fine ($2500 with an early plea).

Newman's teammate Lachie Cowan was also fined $3125 for striking Neal-Bullen in the second quarter, with that incident graded as careless conduct, low impact and body contact. Cowan can accept a $1875 fine with an early plea.

16 minutes ago, Satan said:

What a joke

The Match Review Officer graded the incident as careless conduct, low impact and high contact, drawing a $3750 fine ($2500 with an early plea).

Newman's teammate Lachie Cowan was also fined $3125 for striking Neal-Bullen in the second quarter, with that incident graded as careless conduct, low impact and body contact. Cowan can accept a $1875 fine with an early plea.

It's Carlton, so no surprise there, as unbelievable as the decision is. Double standards. 

17 minutes ago, Satan said:

What a joke

The Match Review Officer graded the incident as careless conduct, low impact and high contact, drawing a $3750 fine ($2500 with an early plea).

Newman's teammate Lachie Cowan was also fined $3125 for striking Neal-Bullen in the second quarter, with that incident graded as careless conduct, low impact and body contact. Cowan can accept a $1875 fine with an early plea.

Place your bets.

Place your bets.

22 minutes ago, Satan said:

What a joke

The Match Review Officer graded the incident as careless conduct, low impact and high contact, drawing a $3750 fine ($2500 with an early plea).

Newman's teammate Lachie Cowan was also fined $3125 for striking Neal-Bullen in the second quarter, with that incident graded as careless conduct, low impact and body contact. Cowan can accept a $1875 fine with an early plea.

Is anyone on here going to say the AFL doesn't have bias towards the blues and pies.

Infuriating double standards.

3 hours ago, binman said:

Personnel helps that's for sure.

But I agree with hoyne their system is flawed.

I mean they gave up  17 scoring shots in the second half (by way of contrast the cats only had 14 in their second half in their high scoring win over the blues).

They had a 38 point lead halfway through the third quarter and on a slippery night almost got run down.

And a big factor in that was they were all over the place marking tracc. I was sitting at the punt road end (the end we were kickimg to in the last q) and had blues fans around me screaming at them in the last to man tracc up and stop leaving him all alone so often.

It was bizarre. Their structure was all over the place.

Blokes on fire and they were frequently letting him to sit out the back free. And we got ot to him multiple times.

Almost cost them the game.

The best I'll accept is that it's a mix of both but the way in which people suggested it was nothing to do with missing players was ridiculous. They may still have defensive weaknesses but they aren't the same if they have Kemp and McGovern instead of Young and Williams.

On a side note, I had Carlton fans sitting around me who spent the whole game expecting us to run them down and the final 10 minutes convinced we'd lose. There must be a CFCSS which is worse than MCFSS!

17 hours ago, layzie said:

Would anyone be offended if i said that Carlton fans are braindead morons?

I guess it depends where you sit. Last year I was tormented as to who I would barrack for had Collingwood and Carlton played off in the GF. (I’ve despised both sides all my life).

Easy decision after I attended the two final games that we played against both sides.  The Feral fans were putrid (eg chanting Collingwood whilst Brayshaw was knocked out unconscious). Carlton in comparison were bearable.

Back to my response to your post. Carlton fans that were in my vicinity (in last year’s final and the game the other day and even on the train ride home) seemed like reasonable people when compared to the Ferals.  Maybe I was just lucky.

1 hour ago, Satan said:

What a joke

The Match Review Officer graded the incident as careless conduct, low impact and high contact, drawing a $3750 fine ($2500 with an early plea).

Newman's teammate Lachie Cowan was also fined $3125 for striking Neal-Bullen in the second quarter, with that incident graded as careless conduct, low impact and body contact. Cowan can accept a $1875 fine with an early plea.

Why am I not surprised. Carlton are the AFL darlings this year 🤬

4 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

Do you seriously think this?

The middle two quarters were intense and even. If we didn't turn up until three quarter time, do you really think the game would have been as close as it was?

I have to stop myself from OTT posting about this but ask Carlton supporters for their views on Young and you'll get a strong majority telling you he's a real problem. Williams was struggling defensively too.

Replacing them with McGovern and Kemp was enormous for them structurally.

Daniel Hoyne on radio wanted people to believe it was a system problem, not personnel. In a not-uncommon occurrence, he is wrong. 

You've missed the sarcasm in my post.

Although I loved the move of Trac going forward and almost winning the game, I think one thing we’re glossing over is why were we so bad at winning contest in the forward half for the first 2 qtrs?
 

One of main reasons Goody throws Trac forward is when we’re getting smashed at contest in our forward line. Weitering, McGovern, Kemp and Cincotta dominated our forwards. If we’re going to make a tilt at this year’s flag, then Roo, Petty, Turner, Fritsch and Chandler need to be better at contest and one-on-ones.

2 hours ago, Satan said:

What a joke

The Match Review Officer graded the incident as careless conduct, low impact and high contact, drawing a $3750 fine ($2500 with an early plea).

Newman's teammate Lachie Cowan was also fined $3125 for striking Neal-Bullen in the second quarter, with that incident graded as careless conduct, low impact and body contact. Cowan can accept a $1875 fine with an early plea.

Why am I not surprised. 

6 hours ago, binman said:

By the by, I've been critical of the blues defence this season.

But credit where it is due - they were excellent defensively last night, particularly in the first half, won some critical one on one battles and were a huge factor in the win - perhaps the biggest.

I definitely didn’t see it coming either. I thought we’d expose their defence. It was revealed before the game that Voss sat Weitering down for a chat mid week about his role and Carlton’s defensive woes. It certainly paid off for them. Maybe Goody should sit out midfield down and do the same thing…