Forward Line & Backup Ruck Issues Going into 2024 and beyond ...

[Young Blood 2,268]

7 minutes ago, rjay said:

I will give him a break as he has had an interrupted preseason but will need to get a wriggle on.

...but will need to show some good signs this year.

I think we're a bit spoiled with JVR as a 20yr old who has been able to impact the game and play his role well as KPF in his second season. Key forwards aren't meant to be that good so early on.

Jefferson will take a little longer after kicking 23.17 in his first season with Casey he was definitely inconsistent but definitely showed really good signs.

I'm actually bullish about him. I watched quite a few Casey games last year and to me he is a natural footballer. He has that similar trait to Fritta where he reads to ball so well and uses his body really well to leverage and guard space where the ball drop is. Also has great hands for marking. He will obviously need to put on size and work on his running/aerobic capacity. But he has the tools and tricks.

Maybe not this year. He just needs to build on last year. But expecting a big future from Jefferson. 

[Demonland 70,257]

Tall order facing Dees' attack ahead of Opening Round

MELBOURNE opens the season against Sydney in a little over two weeks, but the makeup of the Demons' forward line remains concerningly unclear.

The Demons were already somewhat skinny in the tall forwards department, but injury and suspension has hit the entire line hard over summer.

The situation – while not yet a full-blown crisis – could see Melbourne field a forward line of 20-year-old Jacob van Rooyen and the three-club former No.2 pick Josh Schache as the side's key targets for the opening match against the Swans, with veteran Tom McDonald still a chance to feature in attack.

McDonald missed match simulation against Richmond with calf soreness, although the Demons say he is expected to play in the upcoming practice match against Carlton.

The wrinkle in the plan is while McDonald has been a recognised forward for the past few years, he has largely been training in defence this summer, reprising the role he played throughout the first half of his AFL career. 

How has Melbourne landed in this sticky situation?

Ben Brown had knee surgery in late January, while Joel Smith has been provisionally suspended after testing positive for cocaine after the Demons' round 22 clash against Hawthorn late last year.

Kozzy Pickett will also miss the opening round after a one-match suspension for a high bump on Carlton's Patrick Cripps in last year's heartbreaking semi-final loss.

Recruit Shane McAdam is battling a calf issue, with no guidance yet from the Dees around the former Adelaide high flyer's expected return date, while undersized marking target Jake Melksham is rehabbing a torn ACL and won't be available until late in the season.

Harrison Petty is working on overcoming a toe issue, and is less likely than McDonald to face the Blues.

The lack of talls could herald an unlikely renaissance for Schache, who last year played two of his three games as the sub, including going unused in the semi-final defeat to the Blues.

The potential return of Clayton Oliver (personal reasons) in Opening Round could also allow fellow superstar Christian Petracca to spend more time in attack, which would alleviate many of the Demons' potential forward woes.

Oliver lined up alongside fellow senior player Christian Salem (back) in the VFL hitout against Richmond on Sunday, the latter playing through the midfield despite being more traditionally found at half-back.

But when it comes to smaller forwards, the Dees are set, with Bayley Fritsch, Charlie Spargo, Kade Chandler, Alex Neal-Bullen, Taj Woewodin, recruit Jack Billings and father-son selection Kynan Brown – who showed a clean pair of heels against the Tigers – all available.   

Spargo (Achilles soreness) and Woewodin (concussion) sat out the game against the Tigers, but are expected to face Carlton.

"We got to see some guys up there who haven't played much footy together. Jack Billings played through there, Josh Schache, Kynan Brown played through there too," assistant coach Troy Chaplin said after the scratch match against Richmond.

"We tried some things over summer, and we've had some guys in and out, and we're trying to find the right mix. It was more our method today, it wasn't so much our forward line, it was what we were doing behind the ball. I thought defensively, which we've been really strong the last few years, was a little bit off today."

The ruck situation is also a little dicey.

Recruit Tom Fullarton – brought in after the departure of Brodie Grundy to Sydney – is likely to miss the first month of the season with a hamstring injury, leaving Max Gawn light for support.

Gawn is also an option to rest up forward, where few can match his aerial reach, but he would likely be replacing one of Schache or van Rooyen as they rotate into the ruck, rather than adding a third prong to the forward line.

"We used (in the ruck) Josh Schache today," Chaplin said after Sunday's game. "(Rookie) Will Verrall played some minutes because we were always only going to play Max for a half. (Gawn is) a pretty important player for us, so a half was enough for us. He's done all the loads throughout pre-season, so it was more about looking after him.

"We've got Jacob van Rooyen who played second ruck last year, so we've got a couple of guys who can support him, but we're going to have to find ways to look after Max as well.

"That was an opportunity today, but it's very hard to tell Max he's only playing a half, he's a pretty proud player."

[Demonland 70,257]

 

[dino rover 700]

I thought this guy was worth a look

he is third in line behind Darcy and Jackson at Freo 

 

[Demonland 70,257]

Gawn or bust: Demons ruck stocks sweating skipper’s every move

Jon Ralph

Don't miss out on the headlines from AFL. Followed categories will be added to My News.

Max Gawn has limped into a pair of knockout semi finals running on empty.

In 2022 it was a hip injury that had him withdrawn from the side on game day before a last-minute change of heart.

Last year as he battled a broken big toe the decision to play Josh Schache over Brodie Grundy as the club’s substitute was a finals jaw-dropper.

And yet as the AFL season draws nearer it is apparent the Demons will need Gawn to stand up in the ruck like never before.

Partner-in-crime Brodie Grundy is gone, a year after premiership hero Luke Jackson departed for Fremantle.

And while Schache deserves credit as one of football’s survivors after securing a list spot for a ninth season, he might just be Gawn’s ruck back-up for the early rounds of the year.

It is a situation the Demons never expected when they secured Lions key forward Tom Fullarton to play ruck, preferring him to Power veteran Scott Lycett despite his availability.

But Fullarton is out until April with an eight-week hamstring and the club’s other back-up options in Tom McDonald (calf) and Harrison Petty (toe) are currently sidelined.

Jacob Van Rooyen can play second ruck (23 hitouts in 20 games last year) but given the key forward issues he might be needed exclusively inside 50.

Against Richmond on Sunday at Casey Fields as Gawn was managed in only a half of game time, the Demons admitted they weren’t sure who would play second ruck in round 1.

Schache was in three centre bounces in each of the AFL halves before the game turned into a VFL contest, while second-year rookie Will Verrall got his chance late.

South Adelaide’s athletic big man Verrall shapes as a long-term prospect but he’s a baby in AFL terms.

Last year Gawn was at 369 centre bounces to Grundy’s 239.

Demons' 2023 centre bounce attendances by round

Round	M. Gawn	B. Grundy
1	13	16
2	3	23
3	DNP	30
4	DNP	19
5	DNP	22
6	15	14
7	16	16
8	14	14
9	10	14
10	12	10
11	15	11
12	9	9
13	11	10
15	15	8
16	9	7
17	14	10
18	32	DNP
19	27	DNP
20	36	DNP
21	22	DNP
22	15	6
23	23	DNP
24	18	DNP
25	19	DNP
26	21	DNP

So could it be Schache is a round 1 back-up despite not attending a centre bounce as a ruckman last year?

At some stage Fullarton will return after a VFL stint to build match fitness but his most recent AFL games were in 2022 (five contests, 19 across his career) and he didn’t attend a centre bounce in that season for the Lions.

Melbourne doesn’t have a bye until round 6, by which time Gawn might be gasping for air.

As Demons assistant coach Troy Chaplin said after the Tigers clash, Melbourne needs to find some answers to lessen its reliance on its ageing skipper.

“Well we used Josh Shache today. Will Verrall played some minutes because we’re always only going to play Max for a half,” he said.

“Obviously he’s a pretty important player to us. So a half was probably enough for us. He’s done all the loads throughout pre-season so it was more about looking after him but Josh Shache, we’ve got Jacob Van Rooyen who played second ruck last year.

“So we’ve got a couple of guys that can support him but we’re also going to have to find ways that we can look after Max as well.

“It’s very hard to tell Max that he’s only going to play a half as well. He’s a pretty proud player and he’s competitive so you know when Max is one out he probably plays his best footy. But we certainly have to find that guy who’s going to play that secondary position for us.”

[DeeZone 8,953]

I think that we just use what we have available, Schache Round 0, assisted by JvR, then Fullarton as soon as he is match fit and gently introduce Verrall during the year. Then do as a number of Dlanders me included suggested earlier this year seek out the best ruckman not on a list and bring him in. As for Matty Jefferson he will step up but he’s not a JVR he will be our second or third tall with great hands and kicking skills, needs to hit the 96kg mark before he is fully effective.

[Nascent 8,634]

2019: Melbourne recruit Luke Jackson - Media "what are they doing, they have Max Gawn"

2022: Melbourne recruit Brodie Grundy - Media "what are they doing, they have Max Gawn:

2023: Melbourne recruit Fullarton as fwd/ruck but gets injured - Media "what are they doing, they only have Max Gawn"

I realise it's not this simple and it's far more nuanced, but can't help but feel we can't win with the media. They seem to take any opportunity to have a dig at us even if it contradicts their previous stance.

Edited February 23 by Nascent

[Roost it far 7,395]

20 minutes ago, DeeZone said:

I think that we just use what we have available, Schache Round 0, assisted by JvR, then Fullarton as soon as he is match fit and gently introduce Verrall during the year. Then do as a number of Dlanders me included suggested earlier this year seek out the best ruckman not on a list and bring him in. As for Matty Jefferson he will step up but he’s not a JVR he will be our second or third tall with great hands and kicking skills, needs to hit the 96kg mark before he is fully effective.

Jefferson is not even in the ballpark yet. He may never be but you talk of him like he’s a certainty to play.

[dee-tox 4,835]

11 minutes ago, Roost it far said:

Jefferson is not even in the ballpark yet. He may never be but you talk of him like he’s a certainty to play.

Kids 19, might be still two years away.

[DeeZone 8,953]

I did say When he hits 96kg, write him off if you like Roost, but I see him in the Red & Blue long term.

[jnrmac 19,890]

On 11/02/2024 at 09:34, old55 said:

I think the injury "crisis" is overblown.

The backline is fit and burgeoning with talent.

The midfield is mostly fit, yes there's the ongoing questions about Clarrie and Gus but that was known information. Hunter has a calf injury he can't shake but Billings has arrived and Woey,  Laurie and Windsor may be ready to step up.

The forward line is the issue, but we knew Petty has a nasty injury that takes time to get over, TMac and BBB are questionable propositions and McAdam is known to be mercurial but injury prone. Kosi is out for a week.  The only news is Fullarton's injury and who knows if he's better than Schache anyway? If we're a Fullarton injury from panic then we're not who I think we are.

I think vs Sydney we can go with JVR, Schache, Fritsch, ANB, Spargo, Chandler and Laurie/Woey/Billings/Kolt. Throw in a bit of Petracca. And then someone has to make way for Kosi vs the Dogs.

Sure, we don't want more forward line injuries right now but by the same token Petty, McAdam, TMac, BBB and Fullarton are not dead and some will filter back soon enough.

It's not just the injury list. The whole club has a huge number of question marks over it.

People can say that players don't care about what happens at Board level or in the media etc etc but they do. They read about it. They get asked about it. To win a flag everything has to go pretty much right.

And on field it was our leaders that lost us games. Think Lever taking a mark at CHB against Carlton with what, 90 secs on the clock? We were a few kicks away from success but those little things are portents of the bigger picture. Players leads not getting rewarded. Fritsch being selfish and then missing gimme goals. Team rules not being followed.

And if the playing group see certain players getting treated differently or not making the same sacrifices to improve its a rot within the club. Jack Watts was a prime example of that. Good player well liked but was wanting in his commitment.

The players would have known about the player currently under suspension.  What did the leaders do about it? Why wasn't he brought into line? What would cause a fringe player like that to behave the way he did?

Yes the players can block it out and go down the 'us v them' / we have something to prove route but its going to take something very special for the team to outperform as it stands.

I for one am very concerned about how we will perform this year. Particularly early with a tough draw. 

Edited February 23 by jnrmac

[DeeSpencer 24,718]

Are we sure Fullarton is still out until April? He seems to be advancing fairly quickly with talk he’d play some minutes on Wednesday?

He could be a chance for round 1 or 2 (17 or 23 March).

The other question is are we sure Verrall  can’t play round 0? No expectations he’d play more than about 50% game time (30% ruck, 20% forward) but is he an option? 

 

[rjay 24,592]

16 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Are we sure Fullarton is still out until April? He seems to be advancing fairly quickly with talk he’d play some minutes on Wednesday?

He could be a chance for round 1 or 2 (17 or 23 March).

The other question is are we sure Verrall  can’t play round 0? No expectations he’d play more than about 50% game time (30% ruck, 20% forward) but is he an option? 

 

I would play Verrall ahead of Schache.

Definite option for me...

[Redleg 40,128]

2 hours ago, DeeZone said:

I think that we just use what we have available, 

As opposed to?😉

[Redleg 40,128]

11 minutes ago, rjay said:

I would play Verrall ahead of Schache.

Definite option for me...

I think that will ultimately be the scenario, as Verrall looks to be really improving.

KFW is still a chance in the next few years, if he can put on some muscle.

Pity he isn't a bit taller, but then again he is the same height as LJ and was very highly regarded by the SA state coach.

[DeeZone 8,953]

1 hour ago, Redleg said:

As opposed to?😉

Fretting about what we don’t have.😁

[Redleg 40,128]

12 minutes ago, DeeZone said:

Fretting about what we don’t have.😁

Good answer.

[Demonland 70,257]

 

[Demonland 70,257]

2 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Are we sure Fullarton is still out until April? He seems to be advancing fairly quickly with talk he’d play some minutes on Wednesday?

He could be a chance for round 1 or 2 (17 or 23 March).

The other question is are we sure Verrall  can’t play round 0? No expectations he’d play more than about 50% game time (30% ruck, 20% forward) but is he an option? 

 

I heard he could play as soon as Wednesday in the 2s vs Carlton. 

[Lexinator 1,538]

23 minutes ago, Demonland said:

 

Dang it. Had a feeling we'd get him, but might be easier to get him when he hits RFA? Could you imagine King and JvR running a muck? One can dream.

[Redleg 40,128]

5 hours ago, Nascent said:

2019: Melbourne recruit Luke Jackson - Media "what are they doing, they have Max Gawn"

2022: Melbourne recruit Brodie Grundy - Media "what are they doing, they have Max Gawn:

2023: Melbourne recruit Fullarton as fwd/ruck but gets injured - Media "what are they doing, they only have Max Gawn"

I realise it's not this simple and it's far more nuanced, but can't help but feel we can't win with the media. They seem to take any opportunity to have a dig at us even if it contradicts their previous stance.

It does feel like there is an agenda.

[Dee-monic 620]

It's not the media's fault that:

(1) We failed to persuade Jackson to stay;

(2) We failed to make the Grundy experiment work;

(3) One injury is enough to show that we have failed to provide sufficient cover for Max, meaning that even if we make it into September he will be exhausted and almost certainly carrying minor injuries;

(4) Melksham and May provided a Punch and Judy sideshow for the newshounds to blow up into WW3.

As for the other current problems the club is experiencing, the people in charge have to start taking some responsibility for issues that the media are perfectly entitled to probe. If problems off the field are proving a distraction on the field, firm and decisive action is needed to root these out, not constant running for cover.

In soccer terms, we have been kicking own goals at a time when we are firmly in a premiership window.

Some things, such as the forced departure of Angus Brayshaw, are beyond our control. Had we known about this sooner, James Jordon might still have had a future as a Demon.

Despite all these troubles, however, we still have an enviable core of elite talent. Provided Kate Roffey, her boardroom colleagues and the players all get their acts together, I see no reason why not to dream of another flag this season.

 

 

 

[Dee*ceiving 1,630]

18 hours ago, Dee-monic said:

It's not the media's fault that:

(1) We failed to persuade Jackson to stay;

(2) We failed to make the Grundy experiment work;

(3) One injury is enough to show that we have failed to provide sufficient cover for Max, meaning that even if we make it into September he will be exhausted and almost certainly carrying minor injuries;

(4) Melksham and May provided a Punch and Judy sideshow for the newshounds to blow up into WW3.

As for the other current problems the club is experiencing, the people in charge have to start taking some responsibility for issues that the media are perfectly entitled to probe. If problems off the field are proving a distraction on the field, firm and decisive action is needed to root these out, not constant running for cover.

In soccer terms, we have been kicking own goals at a time when we are firmly in a premiership window.

Some things, such as the forced departure of Angus Brayshaw, are beyond our control. Had we known about this sooner, James Jordon might still have had a future as a Demon.

Despite all these troubles, however, we still have an enviable core of elite talent. Provided Kate Roffey, her boardroom colleagues and the players all get their acts together, I see no reason why not to dream of another flag this season.

Very well put Dee-monic, though obviously difficult to accept.

It's the vitriolic, sensationalistic, ravenous pride some media outlets seem to take when they stick the boots into us that makes us so defensive and bitter. I must say the club has done a better job at remaining stoic and taking the high road than I have managed, though I wish the club were more direct and timely in some of our retorts.  

Edited February 24 by Dee*ceiving

[redandbluemakepurple 349]

19 hours ago, Dee-monic said:

It's not the media's fault that:

(1) We failed to persuade Jackson to stay;

(2) We failed to make the Grundy experiment work;

(3) One injury is enough to show that we have failed to provide sufficient cover for Max, meaning that even if we make it into September he will be exhausted and almost certainly carrying minor injuries;

(4) Melksham and May provided a Punch and Judy sideshow for the newshounds to blow up into WW3.

(1)  As a son and a parent, I am not surprised that his mum got him to come home.  Unless there is a blow-up, the parent controls well into the off-spring's 20's.

(2) Grundy covered admirably, when Gawn was down mid-season.  We traded him on for a pick and salary relief.  I am unsure that we lost from his presence in 2023.

(3)  True but the young grow into the new roles when given the chance.  There is still a long way to go.

(4)  This was in 2022 without a resurgence.  

 

[SthSea22 485]

On 14/02/2024 at 12:02, HBDee said:

I don't know many, if any clubs that have multiple key forwards and ruckmen lining up to get into the senior side.......

We literally have none

 

McDonald and Brown are cooked which leaves us.........................