Liam Henry

[The heart beats true 18,144]

29 minutes ago, Demon Disciple said:

Problem is we haven’t really seen our best this year. Why not?

Because it’s not September yet.

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

21 minutes ago, The heart beats true said:

Because it’s not September yet.

What about last September? 

[Witches Hat 451]

On 6/27/2023 at 7:26 PM, Gawndy the Great said:

Nope - I’d say a 3rd rounder. Barely gets a game. 

It's Peter Bell we're dealing with. He'll want two 1st round picks...and Trac.

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

2 hours ago, Queanbeyan Demon said:

How many premierships has Colinwood won in the last 12 years? Actually, how many have they won since '58?

I'm not sure that has anything to do with what I am saying. I'm talking about the way they've built their list right now. And the style of football they play. 

But I think what's more relevant than solely winning flags (which no single team can sustain year after aside from those freak dynasties) is the following:

They keep competing and never stay down for long. 

Why don't you ask how many years they've made finals and competed in prelims since 2010?

 

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

6 hours ago, Deestar9 said:

Factor in their incredible MCG advantage…less travel ..even playing a team off the bye when they were off the bye..their obnoxious but loud crowd who influence umpiring decisions..I.e. against Adelaide. I can only dream what we could achieve with their fixture .. Apart from all that …totally disagree with your summation of their list vs ours .

What's incredible about it? Because their supporters rock up? 

Collingwood are perennial travellers. Maybe you're talking about this year solely? 

The fact that they have a large supporter base is an advantage that they have created. The fact that we have an average sized supporter base and plenty who don't rock up is something we have created. So what exactly are you complaining about? The fact that they have been able to create an advantage and we haven't? 

I'm also interested in why you disagree with what I said about our lists compared. Please share. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by JimmyGadson

[The heart beats true 18,144]

16 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

What about last September? 

What about it? 

[Adam The God 30,403]

14 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

And the style of football they play. 

You think the style of football they play is better than our style?

Their style leaves them incredibly vulnerable to the counter, and is basically just rolling the dice with every play, adding numbers to contests and hoping numbers win out.

We've been here before. We tried that in 2018. It's vulnerable to a sophisticated defensive system and to pressure.

The mindless idealisation of Collingwood is quite bewildering on here.

Is it a case of the grass is always greener or do people just swallow the media narrative?

And make no mistake, Collingwood drives clicks and sells papers, so manufacturing an unbeatable aura around them (despite failing to even make a GF last year) is profitable and beneficial for media outlets.

If it were the Bulldogs or the Saints, or even GWS or Gold Coast, the hype would not exist. Simple as that.

[Demon Disciple 12,267]

56 minutes ago, The heart beats true said:

Because it’s not September yet.

Ahh. An optimist………………..what on earth are you doing round these parts?

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

43 minutes ago, A F said:

You think the style of football they play is better than our style?

Their style leaves them incredibly vulnerable to the counter, and is basically just rolling the dice with every play, adding numbers to contests and hoping numbers win out.

We've been here before. We tried that in 2018. It's vulnerable to a sophisticated defensive system and to pressure.

The mindless idealisation of Collingwood is quite bewildering on here.

Is it a case of the grass is always greener or do people just swallow the media narrative?

And make no mistake, Collingwood drives clicks and sells papers, so manufacturing an unbeatable aura around them (despite failing to even make a GF last year) is profitable and beneficial for media outlets.

If it were the Bulldogs or the Saints, or even GWS or Gold Coast, the hype would not exist. Simple as that.

I disagree on almost everything you've said..

To me, you just sound like another supporter who despises Collingwood and therefore downplay what they're doing. Which is fine. But it's simply wrong. 

The reason I think they play a better style is multifaceted. I can see you're looking through the gameplan lense only and I'll get to that in a minute. 

Firstly, I think they play a brand of football that is unbelievably exciting, fast paced, fun and ultimately brings hoards of supporters through the gate and gives them huge viewership on TV. So the first point is that they play a brand of football that their supporters love to watch. 

Secondly, their style of play inspires and motivates their players. This is another overlooked factor in why they are performing in games. Arousal levels are remain consistently high because they play fun footy, their fun footy attracts crowds, their arousal levels go up again. It's a fantastic symbiotic relationship that has been working for them pretty much since fly joined but most definitely since midway through last year. The same cannot be said for us, can it? 

Now getting to the game-style part of the question. 

I don't think I need to give any more evidence than what is already laid bare. From midway through last year, right through to now, they have played a much more consistent brand of footy compared to us. 

A point that can't be argued with. They have won more games, been in games for longer and closed games better than us. 

Every side has an Achilles heel. So the only point I agree on is that Collingwood's desire to play fast paced, numbers around the ball style of footy does leave them vulnerable at the back.

But to what degree is that a problem for them right now and since midway last year? It's simply not! Because they are so efficient going forward and have such a strong offensive game. The other thing is, they have unbelievably good one on one key defensive players in Darcy Moore and Brayden Maynard who refuse to give up. If it is a roll of the dice as you say, they must be the luckiest sporting team to ever exist given their win/loss ratio since midway last year. I think we all know what they're achieving is more than just luck, you included under that cloud of Collingwood hate. 

As far as comparing their style to our 2018 style. I think it's a silly comparison given the in-season results as well as the personnel on lists at the time. Our second half of '18 was nowhere near as consistent as their second half of' 22. And look at what happened to us in 2019?

We made finals and played two rippers in 2018. They steam rolled their way to a prilim with consistently good football from mid season and lost by a couple of points to an interstate side at home. We got walloped and broke some records along the way against an interstate side. 

Our vulnerabilities were a constant threat in every game we played and were constantly an issue throughout the season. You simply can't say the same for Collingwood. 

And lastly. I completely disagree about the 'hype' thing. Any side who performs like this will get media attention. Collingwood are a Victorian club so you're obviously going to read more about them here. But any club who would be performing this way consistently would be getting the media attention they deserve on all sports media.

You're living in a Collingwood hatred bubble. 

They're onto a good thing. The evidence is everywhere and the positives that come from the way they're playing are multifaceted. 

Our FD are wasting our talent, we play talented players out of position, we play a boring and vanilla style of football, our game-day arousal levels are always inconsistent and we have a supporter base who pick and choose when to come to games in part for the reasons I've stated. 

Look forward to your response. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by JimmyGadson

[DeeSpencer 26,070]

23 minutes ago, A F said:

You think the style of football they play is better than our style?

Their style leaves them incredibly vulnerable to the counter, and is basically just rolling the dice with every play, adding numbers to contests and hoping numbers win out.

We've been here before. We tried that in 2018. It's vulnerable to a sophisticated defensive system and to pressure.

The mindless idealisation of Collingwood is quite bewildering on here.

I certainly do. They’re strong and balanced in the midfield, particularly when DeGoey is back. They pressure very well all over the ground.
 

And their backline is versatile and solid when one on one. Whilst N Daicos and Noble play like aggressive soccer wing backs they cover off with wingers and their other 5 defenders: Moore, Howe, Murphy, Maynard, Quaynor are great athletes and strong overhead so they peel off and cover each other. 

In 2018 we were opened up defensively by certain teams but we our talls weren’t up to it, the Pies have Darcy Moore, they can play more open!

Yes they leave themselves vulnerable to turnovers but they don’t have too many of the really bad ones because everyone’s on board with the style. Their half forwards work very hard.

But that’s not to say they are perfect or we should be exactly like them. But we have to put some pace, aggression and run to space in to our game.

And we can’t just expect to push the switch and bring elite pressure when we need it either. Almost every week we pressured well in 2021, since then our pressure has been spotty.

[Tolstoys Nudge 1,734]

Henry might’ve just priced himself out of red and blue — was close to done deal some say but now.. price might be too high (trade price) let’s hope he drops off again…

[DeeSpencer 26,070]

22 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

Our FD are wasting our talent, we play talented players out of position, we play a boring and vanilla style of football, our game-day arousal levels are always inconsistent and we have a supporter base who pick and choose when to come to games in part for the reasons I've stated. 

I mostly agree with you but I think you’re harsh on our crowds which have been very good this year. And overrate the impact of style Pies crowds, they could win 31-30 and fill out the G if they keep winning. Not much we can do short term about the fact we we’re rubbish for 50 years and the Pies have 150 years of breeding like rabbits filling out the northern suburbs train lines and the rest of the city/state/country. Plus decades of prime fixturing. Short of a dynasty, membership gaps take decades to make up.

Im also not convinced we are playing too many players out of position and if we are it’s largely because we have to (ie. having 2 rucks and a shortage of playable depth options). 

Our list management last year was Hunter for Hunt, Grundy for Jackson and the hope Chandler and JVR could step up and so far that’s all we’ve got. With the bonus of McVee. The Pies bought in 4 mature guys. Brisbane had a great draft and topped up. Port have been building their list up for years with clever additions and waiting for Rozee and Butters to come of age.

I think it’s close to time for a Taj debut but it’s hard to imagine he drastically changes much. And time to consider taking Salem or Riv in to full time mids, but that’s robbing perhaps one of our best 2 backmen. 

Regardless we’ll be scrambling to fill the key forwards, provide midfield run and skill and in an ideal world we’re probably missing a powerful medium forward too.

Edited June 28, 2023 by DeeSpencer

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

31 minutes ago, Nudge said:

Henry might’ve just priced himself out of red and blue — was close to done deal some say but now.. price might be too high (trade price) let’s hope he drops off again…

Where did you hear the 'some say' part? 

18 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

I mostly agree with you but I think you’re harsh on our crowds which have been very good this year. And overrate the Pies crowds. Not much we can do short term about the fact we we’re rubbish for 50 years and the Pies have 150 years of breeding like rabbits filling out the northern suburbs train lines and the rest of the city/state/country. Plus decades of prime fixturing. Short of a dynasty, membership gaps take decades to make up.

Im also not convinced we are playing too many players out of position and if we are it’s largely because we have to (ie. having 2 rucks and a shortage of playable depth options). 

Our list management last year was Hunter for Hunt, Grundy for Jackson and the hope Chandler and JVR could step up and so far that’s all we’ve got. With the bonus of McVee. The Pies bought in 4 mature guys. Brisbane had a great draft and topped up. Port have been building their list up for years with clever additions and waiting for Rozee and Butters to come of age.

I think it’s close to time for a Taj debut but it’s hard to imagine he drastically changes much. And time to consider taking Salem or Riv in to full time mids, but that’s robbing perhaps one of our best 2 backmen. 

Regardless we’ll be scrambling to fill the key forwards, provide midfield run and skill and in an ideal world we’re probably missing a powerful medium forward too.

The crowds thing is the clubs fault for allowing people in charge to drive it into the abyss. Which is ultimately why supporters dropped off. And our style of play as well is our personnel doesn't seem to bring the same excitement level as it does for Collingwood for example. 

I completely understand why our supporters don't always want to rock up to a game sometimes. Not sure it harsh. Just true. 

Brayshaw anywhere other than inside mid, Gawn forward, I think one of Salem or Bowey need to be moved to a flank for us to connect better. Smith forward is an issue. 

We just don't get creative enough with tinkering, player addition or attribute diversity across the field. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by JimmyGadson

[dazzledavey36 55,315]

7 hours ago, A F said:

You think the style of football they play is better than our style?

Their style leaves them incredibly vulnerable to the counter, and is basically just rolling the dice with every play, adding numbers to contests and hoping numbers win out.

We've been here before. We tried that in 2018. It's vulnerable to a sophisticated defensive system and to pressure.

The mindless idealisation of Collingwood is quite bewildering on here.

Is it a case of the grass is always greener or do people just swallow the media narrative?

And make no mistake, Collingwood drives clicks and sells papers, so manufacturing an unbeatable aura around them (despite failing to even make a GF last year) is profitable and beneficial for media outlets.

If it were the Bulldogs or the Saints, or even GWS or Gold Coast, the hype would not exist. Simple as that.

Their playing syle is copybook text straight from the Damien Hardwick game plan. Just remember McRea was an assistant coach to Dimma during the glory years.

They won 3 premierships with the exact same game plan the McRea is implementing right now which far out weighs the vulnerabilities because right now they're still getting the results. 

They're well balanced on all three parts of the ground and they're about to get a fit DeGoey back and also Sidebottom which will further strengthen their team side come game day.

Not sure how you can compare their current style to ours of 2018, i mean its not even close.

You talk about a team with so many vulnerabilities and that was us back then. Our defence leaked so many simple goals and it got shown out big time against the eagles come prelim.

We were also pretty inconsistent at time throughout that year. Went on a 6 game winning streak but then lost 3 in a row with one coming against the lowly saints.

Not only that, we were close to missing the finals that year as well. Collingwood are no way near close to even missing top 4.

 

[Queanbeyan Demon 6,862]

9 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

I'm not sure that has anything to do with what I am saying. I'm talking about the way they've built their list right now. And the style of football they play. 

But I think what's more relevant than solely winning flags (which no single team can sustain year after aside from those freak dynasties) is the following:

They keep competing and never stay down for long. 

Why don't you ask how many years they've made finals and competed in prelims since 2010?

Because the only thing that counts is premierships.

[Jaded No More 68,972]

10 hours ago, Demon Disciple said:

Problem is we haven’t really seen our best this year. Why not?

Because we learnt from last year that flags aren't won in round 10

[Deestar9 1,647]

9 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

I disagree on almost everything you've said..

To me, you just sound like another supporter who despises Collingwood and therefore downplay what they're doing. Which is fine. But it's simply wrong. 

The reason I think they play a better style is multifaceted. I can see you're looking through the gameplan lense only and I'll get to that in a minute. 

Firstly, I think they play a brand of football that is unbelievably exciting, fast paced, fun and ultimately brings hoards of supporters through the gate and gives them huge viewership on TV. So the first point is that they play a brand of football that their supporters love to watch. 

Secondly, their style of play inspires and motivates their players. This is another overlooked factor in why they are performing in games. Arousal levels are remain consistently high because they play fun footy, their fun footy attracts crowds, their arousal levels go up again. It's a fantastic symbiotic relationship that has been working for them pretty much since fly joined but most definitely since midway through last year. The same cannot be said for us, can it? 

Now getting to the game-style part of the question. 

I don't think I need to give any more evidence than what is already laid bare. From midway through last year, right through to now, they have played a much more consistent brand of footy compared to us. 

A point that can't be argued with. They have won more games, been in games for longer and closed games better than us. 

Every side has an Achilles heel. So the only point I agree on is that Collingwood's desire to play fast paced, numbers around the ball style of footy does leave them vulnerable at the back.

But to what degree is that a problem for them right now and since midway last year? It's simply not! Because they are so efficient going forward and have such a strong offensive game. The other thing is, they have unbelievably good one on one key defensive players in Darcy Moore and Brayden Maynard who refuse to give up. If it is a roll of the dice as you say, they must be the luckiest sporting team to ever exist given their win/loss ratio since midway last year. I think we all know what they're achieving is more than just luck, you included under that cloud of Collingwood hate. 

As far as comparing their style to our 2018 style. I think it's a silly comparison given the in-season results as well as the personnel on lists at the time. Our second half of '18 was nowhere near as consistent as their second half of' 22. And look at what happened to us in 2019?

We made finals and played two rippers in 2018. They steam rolled their way to a prilim with consistently good football from mid season and lost by a couple of points to an interstate side at home. We got walloped and broke some records along the way against an interstate side. 

Our vulnerabilities were a constant threat in every game we played and were constantly an issue throughout the season. You simply can't say the same for Collingwood. 

And lastly. I completely disagree about the 'hype' thing. Any side who performs like this will get media attention. Collingwood are a Victorian club so you're obviously going to read more about them here. But any club who would be performing this way consistently would be getting the media attention they deserve on all sports media.

You're living in a Collingwood hatred bubble. 

They're onto a good thing. The evidence is everywhere and the positives that come from the way they're playing are multifaceted. 

Our FD are wasting our talent, we play talented players out of position, we play a boring and vanilla style of football, our game-day arousal levels are always inconsistent and we have a supporter base who pick and choose when to come to games in part for the reasons I've stated. 

Look forward to your response. 

I disagree with just about all your arguments & I find it interesting that you obviously spend a lot of time analysing Collingwood. I find it time consuming watching/analysing my own team. We aren’t playing our best footy right now but & I agree it’s a but …if & when we click there will be no one who can beat us. I think the majority of Demonlander’s acknowledge that Collingwood are a very good team but I absolutely believe if we bring our best & they bring theirs ..we get it done. So how about giving a bit of your “Pies love” to the team you support (or do you). The way you describe us you would think we’re in the bottom 4. At this stage both teams have been on a similar trajectory but only one team has won a premiership. Not in the slightest bit interested in how close they’ve come …

[NeveroddoreveN 1,034]

10 hours ago, A F said:

You think the style of football they play is better than our style?

Their style leaves them incredibly vulnerable to the counter, and is basically just rolling the dice with every play, adding numbers to contests and hoping numbers win out.

We've been here before. We tried that in 2018. It's vulnerable to a sophisticated defensive system and to pressure.

The mindless idealisation of Collingwood is quite bewildering on here.

Is it a case of the grass is always greener or do people just swallow the media narrative?

And make no mistake, Collingwood drives clicks and sells papers, so manufacturing an unbeatable aura around them (despite failing to even make a GF last year) is profitable and beneficial for media outlets.

If it were the Bulldogs or the Saints, or even GWS or Gold Coast, the hype would not exist. Simple as that.

Have never like watching Collingwood play until Mcrae started coaching them.   Now i am watching all their games, sure they have flaws and holes in parts of the way they move the ball.....BUT, boy are they exciting to watch, they take the game on with skills, and it is attractive to watch.

Find myself often wondering what a Mcrae-like coach would do for us...It looks a lot more fun playing for Collingwood than with their game plan allowing plenty of flair,.  ANd i see most of their players just loving the pressure and busting their guts when games are generally on the line.

Their style is much more attractive brand of footbal.   Is it better?  Yeah i think so in a lot of ways!

If we were playing a style that was anything like Collingwood i would guarantee more supporters would turn up.  Sure they are there to win matches but mostly to entertain and showcase their skills,  

Teams like Collingwood/Port in the footy are doing it with flair now.....Much like England does in the cricket now too.

i don't think it mindless adoration of Collingwood at all.  More envious i would say  Would love to play a more exciting brand considering i believe our list is superior to both Collingwood and Port.   

Our game vs Collingwood we smothered them, it was really unattractive game.

Adelaide vs Collingwood was super exciting to watch.

I watch every Melbourne game but am not enjoying our style or way we just want to seem to ground teams down, or ourselves.  From week to week i am not seeing a particular style, nor growth of a particular system in the 3 phases of the game that Goodie talks of.

We been pretty good at 2 phases of it for a while now, but we really are not great with ball in hand, skill execution and decision making is generally really poor within our team......with a few exceptions.

 

[NeveroddoreveN 1,034]

45 minutes ago, Deestar9 said:

I disagree with just about all your arguments & I find it interesting that you obviously spend a lot of time analysing Collingwood. I find it time consuming watching/analysing my own team. We aren’t playing our best footy right now but & I agree it’s a but …if & when we click there will be no one who can beat us. I think the majority of Demonlander’s acknowledge that Collingwood are a very good team but I absolutely believe if we bring our best & they bring theirs ..we get it done. So how about giving a bit of your “Pies love” to the team you support (or do you). The way you describe us you would think we’re in the bottom 4. At this stage both teams have been on a similar trajectory but only one team has won a premiership. Not in the slightest bit interested in how close they’ve come …

He spends a lot of time analysing our own team too!   

You might want to get those red and blue blinkers off.

I am curious, you disagree with just about all of his arguments, maybe outline some of them....A lot of what he says is fact and does not take a genius to work out.

*If we click there will be no one can beat us is baloney.  That is just blind optimism currently.

[inanunda 351]

I am jealous of how they extract the best out of every player on the ground. You know that every player on the ground will contribute and make an impact, especially with their bottom six. 

There is still the 'we can tell in the first five minutes if they are on' mindset with our group that I don't see with Collingwood.  They are on every week. 

I've also said before that the lack of creativity, flair and risk from the coaching department is going to cost us in the end.  We might have a team of Mercs but they are being driven by a 50-year-old in second gear for safety and refuses to open it up and see its true performance. Until this risk-averse gameplan changes, we are only delaying the inevitable. 

[Adam The God 30,403]

9 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

I disagree on almost everything you've said..

To me, you just sound like another supporter who despises Collingwood and therefore downplay what they're doing. Which is fine. But it's simply wrong. 

Not at all. I admire what McRae has been able to do in a short amount time, but at the end of the day, they lost their first final, only beat Freo by 20 points and then lost their prelim.

It's a system that doesn't stand up in finals... so far. 

9 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

The reason I think they play a better style is multifaceted. I can see you're looking through the gameplan lense only and I'll get to that in a minute. 

Firstly, I think they play a brand of football that is unbelievably exciting, fast paced, fun and ultimately brings hoards of supporters through the gate and gives them huge viewership on TV. So the first point is that they play a brand of football that their supporters love to watch. 

Yes, absolutely. They're great to watch. A bit like us under Daniher. And the Bulldogs in 2021. That's all well and good, but I'd rather a so called 'dour' system and style that wins you premierships. Clearly you'd be happy just going deep in finals and looking good.

I wonder how you'd be viewing us if the shoe were on the other foot.

Given your glass half empty approach to most things Melbourne, I'd wager you'd be saying exactly as I have above. That you'd prefer winning flags than looking good.

And just on the unbelievably exciting and fast paced brand, this is a furphy. Goodwin's style is incredibly exciting and fast paced earlier in the season (many on Demonland often lament that we started the season with more dare, just as they did in 2021) and in the 2021 finals series delivered arguably the most comprehensive finals series of all time.

But I'm sure you'll say, oh, that was 2021. Well, the more negative and defensive style still delivered 2nd spot last year, despite us not being able to run out games in the second half of the year. This last point is not a game style problem, it's a fitness problem. If you want to win premierships, you have to be one of the fittest teams out there and then still it takes a huge amount of luck and other factors going your way.

9 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

Secondly, their style of play inspires and motivates their players. This is another overlooked factor in why they are performing in games. Arousal levels are remain consistently high because they play fun footy, their fun footy attracts crowds, their arousal levels go up again. It's a fantastic symbiotic relationship that has been working for them pretty much since fly joined but most definitely since midway through last year. The same cannot be said for us, can it? 

Yeah, sure, arousal levels. Okay, they've got arousal levels off their crowds. I'd again argue that playing contested, uncompromising football is a pretty good way to inspire and motivate players as well. But yes, I'd love a bigger crowd. This is hardly going to be changed by playing a more attacking style. We have the best supporter to member ratio and our attendances are bloody good for the size of our supporter base as evidenced by currently breaking the home attendance record, which eclipses our huge crowds in the 1960s. 

9 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

Now getting to the game-style part of the question. 

I don't think I need to give any more evidence than what is already laid bare. From midway through last year, right through to now, they have played a much more consistent brand of footy compared to us. 

A point that can't be argued with. They have won more games, been in games for longer and closed games better than us. 

Well, actually, it can be argued. Our second half of last year wasn't helped by our predictable ball movement, but fitness was clearly the number one downfall of our game in the second half of last year - you couldn't dispute any other way given we were 10 zip, it's all about our failures in the second half of the year.

However, in the second half of the year, we led against Collingwood at 3/4 time of both games against them, we led at half time in both finals and we led at half time against Freo in Round 11, were 2 points down at half time against Sydney in Round 12, we beat Brisbane by 10 goals at the MCG in Round 15, we beat Adelaide in Adelaide by 5 goals in Round 16, we were 4 points down to Geelong in Geelong at half time (we drew level just before 3/4 time) in Round 17, we beat Port in Adelaide in Round 18, we led to 3/4 time against the Bulldogs at Marvel (a game that was not a Melbourne game at all - a shoot out), we beat Freo by over 7 goals in the West in Round 20, beat a desperate Carlton playing for their season by 7 points in Round 22 and mauled Brisbane by 10 goals up at the Gabba in the final round.

Collingwood have been a more consistent because they've been fitter over the last 12 months. That part cannot be debated or denied. But to argue their brand is more consistent is to miss the point. Our brand was super consistent last year. This year, we've been less consistent IMV, but still sit inside the top 4 with the 2nd best percentage, -4% to Collingwood, who have won 3 more games!

The thing about Collingwood is they have consistently fallen over the line against teams. They rarely control games. Eventually, that belief in the come from behind, attack at all costs will dwindle and they'll be left with self doubt and their system will leak goals. Will it happen this year? Let's revisit this point at the end of 2023.

9 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

Every side has an Achilles heel. So the only point I agree on is that Collingwood's desire to play fast paced, numbers around the ball style of footy does leave them vulnerable at the back.

But to what degree is that a problem for them right now and since midway last year? It's simply not! Because they are so efficient going forward and have such a strong offensive game. The other thing is, they have unbelievably good one on one key defensive players in Darcy Moore and Brayden Maynard who refuse to give up. If it is a roll of the dice as you say, they must be the luckiest sporting team to ever exist given their win/loss ratio since midway last year. I think we all know what they're achieving is more than just luck, you included under that cloud of Collingwood hate. 

They have a very strong offensive game, no doubt. So did the Bulldogs in 2021. The Bulldogs game style was reliant on handballs to chain out of contest that could be stopped at the source. This protected their unsophisticated defensive system. I wouldn't say Collingwood's defensive system is unsophisticated, but it does rely heavily on the likes of Moore and Howe to intercept and Quaynor to win 1v1s, and to take territory with their kickers.

Our system used to be very reliant on May and Lever. To an extent it obviously still is, but we don't rely on May and Lever taking intercept marks to score or to stop the opposition from scoring. And IMV, our midfield is superior to Collingwood's, but less skilled by foot.

And again, their brilliant win loss ratio is of course in part to their offensive, take it on game style, but without superior fitness they would not be coming back repeatedly in 4th quarters or being able to defend turnover.

Take away their come from behind victories and I think you'd find their record to be heinous. As I say, they're rarely in control of games and they're always chasing. It means they're very vulnerable to mental fatigue. 

Again, this is a wait and see what happens in the finals series and the back end of 2023.

9 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

As far as comparing their style to our 2018 style. I think it's a silly comparison given the in-season results as well as the personnel on lists at the time. Our second half of '18 was nowhere near as consistent as their second half of' 22. And look at what happened to us in 2019?

I made the crude comparison merely in terms of their stoppage focus (sending +1 and +2 to contest, which we did prior to 6-6-6) and their ability to be exposed on defensive transition.

Their defensive personnel is better given Moore, Maynard and Howe, but the latter two are undersized and usually rely on intercept and get shown up against bigger opposition (think Geelong and Brisbane).

I'd take our 2018 midfield over their 2023 midfield, but then they have more elite ball users than we had, which is foundational to their game.

2019 is irrelevant. I was merely comparing game styles.

And yes, I expect Collingwood to come back to the pack when sides go to work on them, which they are. 

9 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

We made finals and played two rippers in 2018. They steam rolled their way to a prilim with consistently good football from mid season and lost by a couple of points to an interstate side at home. We got walloped and broke some records along the way against an interstate side. 

Whereas, Collingwood were in all three finals and managed to win one. We both made a prelim.

Their 2022 finals campaign was better than ours (clearly) for their prelim effort, but again, this is a side that has failed to make a GF. Yet, the esteem with which they're being held in is one of a premier or at least someone that got close in a GF. They didn't even make it to one!

Again, I suspect if the shoe were on the pessimist's other foot, you'd be decrying our inability to get to the big one and that our game style, although getting us wins during the H&A season, had failed to get the job down when it came down to finals pressure. I doubt you'd be talking about the positives of arousal levels...

9 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

Our vulnerabilities were a constant threat in every game we played and were constantly an issue throughout the season. You simply can't say the same for Collingwood. 

We were vulnerable in the second half of the year, because sides knew they could overrun us then. Conversely, in 2021, sides realised we'd strangle them and rarely give them a sniff, because we were the fitness team in it.

Again, we were ahead at half time in both our finals and in our second final, we'd beaten that opposition less than a month earlier on their home deck by 10 goals. That was the story of our season. That we'd consistently fail to run out games.

Nothing to do with game style or arousal levels or some other furphy.

9 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

And lastly. I completely disagree about the 'hype' thing. Any side who performs like this will get media attention. Collingwood are a Victorian club so you're obviously going to read more about them here. But any club who would be performing this way consistently would be getting the media attention they deserve on all sports media.

You're living in a Collingwood hatred bubble. 

They're onto a good thing. The evidence is everywhere and the positives that come from the way they're playing are multifaceted. 

Perhaps.

9 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

Our FD are wasting our talent, we play talented players out of position, we play a boring and vanilla style of football, our game-day arousal levels are always inconsistent and we have a supporter base who pick and choose when to come to games in part for the reasons I've stated. 

Look forward to your response. 

This is your half empty approach again. Wasting our talent? Really? We're 4th FFS. Get a grip. Anyone would think we were languishing on the fringe of the 8.

By the way, are you back from swanning around in Europe yet or are you still picking and choosing when to come to games? Don't tell me you're refusing to attend games because you don't like the game style.

[Adam The God 30,403]

10 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

I certainly do. They’re strong and balanced in the midfield, particularly when DeGoey is back. They pressure very well all over the ground.

I'd agree they have more balance in the midfield, but we have better extractors. It's why Collingwood have to send extras to the stoppages. We're the better contested midfield team, but I'd say their defenders, particularly Quaynor, who just doesn't lose 1v1s, are edging us this season.

And you could hardly say we don't pressure well all over the ground. That's foundational to the way we play as well.

10 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

And their backline is versatile and solid when one on one. Whilst N Daicos and Noble play like aggressive soccer wing backs they cover off with wingers and their other 5 defenders: Moore, Howe, Murphy, Maynard, Quaynor are great athletes and strong overhead so they peel off and cover each other. 

Their backline is too small. Again, this is why McRae's best form of defence is attack.

Their defensive kickers exceed our kickers, although we're building nicely / trying to emulate some of what they do there with Salem, McVee and Bowey. Hibbo on his day is as good as Quaynor 1v1 and May is a better shut down player IMV than Moore, but Moore is a better interceptor. That's a role thing though.

10 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

In 2018 we were opened up defensively by certain teams but we our talls weren’t up to it, the Pies have Darcy Moore, they can play more open!

Agreed. They definitely have better defensive personnel than our 2018 incarnation. Which is why we sort out Lever and May, and drafted Petty.

10 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Yes they leave themselves vulnerable to turnovers but they don’t have too many of the really bad ones because everyone’s on board with the style. Their half forwards work very hard.

I'm not sure that's true. There's a reason their opposition are always in the game and usually ahead for large portions of the game. They give up big on turnover. Even when they beat Geelong in Round 1, you could see, they'd still conceded 100 points and managed to kick more because Geelong were 1 or 2 players down. Again, their fitness got them over the line there, not necessarily superior game style.

10 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

But that’s not to say they are perfect or we should be exactly like them. But we have to put some pace, aggression and run to space in to our game.

And we can’t just expect to push the switch and bring elite pressure when we need it either. Almost every week we pressured well in 2021, since then our pressure has been spotty.

I agree with this completely. We do have to put more speed and pace into the game and I expect us to ramp that up post Round 19. This has been the pattern across 2021, 2022 and it's already showing in 2023 that our ball movement has been tweaked post Round 11 and we're unable to put too much speed on the ball. We're deciding instead to try and chain out of contests and slingshot that way.

Edited June 29, 2023 by A F

[Adam The God 30,403]

3 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Their playing syle is copybook text straight from the Damien Hardwick game plan. Just remember McRea was an assistant coach to Dimma during the glory years.

They won 3 premierships with the exact same game plan the McRea is implementing right now which far out weighs the vulnerabilities because right now they're still getting the results. 

I completely disagree with this, but each to their own.

Collingwood rely on trying to manufacture uncontested possessions to move the ball quickly. Richmond often kicked long and high to contest and got their mozzie fleet at ground level to pressure, settle for territory or to crumb.

Our style is much closer to Richmond's IMO.

3 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

They're well balanced on all three parts of the ground and they're about to get a fit DeGoey back and also Sidebottom which will further strengthen their team side come game day.

Not sure how you can compare their current style to ours of 2018, i mean its not even close.

You talk about a team with so many vulnerabilities and that was us back then. Our defence leaked so many simple goals and it got shown out big time against the eagles come prelim.

We were also pretty inconsistent at time throughout that year. Went on a 6 game winning streak but then lost 3 in a row with one coming against the lowly saints.

I've answered all this in an above post to Steve.

3 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Not only that, we were close to missing the finals that year as well. Collingwood are no way near close to even missing top 4.

I've answered this above as well. Was comparing game style, not ability to fall over the line.

[Deebauched 1,220]

Strewth. According to some posters Collingwood is the most exciting,arousing-urgh- and brilliant team God ever shovelled guts into.

Apparently Collingwood have their name engraved on the cup already. Why not!  Degoey and Sidebottom return soon and will be unbeatable.

May as well unpack the skis and head for the slopes.

[rjay 25,063]

11 hours ago, Nudge said:

Henry might’ve just priced himself out of red and blue — was close to done deal some say but now.. price might be too high (trade price) let’s hope he drops off again…

It didn't seem to concern Freo in the Jackson trade...

He's out of contract which is a plus...so we offer what we consider right. Probably a 2nd rounder.

Maybe they push him to the preseason draft but I would doubt they do that.