PODCAST: Rd 17 vs Geelong

[Demonland 73,140]

Join @george_on_the_outer, @binman & I on the Demonland Podcast Monday night 11th July LIVE @ 8:30pm for breakdown of the Round 17 loss to Geelong.

Listen & Chat LIVE: https://demonland.com/podcast

Call: 03 9016 3666

Skype: Demonland31

[Phil C 730]

I won’t be listening live but look forward to the podcast during the week. It will be interesting to see which Melbourne team turns up this week in the Alice. My hometown and I’ll obviously be at the game. The grass will look brown on TV but only because we’ve had about 5 frosts in a row last week. The surface will still be fantastic. Go Dees

[Demonland 73,140]

We'll be LIVE in 1 hour.

Listen & Chat LIVE: https://demonland.com/podcast

Call: 03 9016 3666

Skype: Demonland31

[Doug Reemer 1,197]

Questions for the pod. 
 

1. How much did a 5 day break out of Adelaide effect us? Especially given we took in Gawn and jackson who were clearly not 100%?

2. Do you think Geelong showed their hand too early? To me Melb didn’t look to try anything out of the ordinary. 

3. IMO- It’s time to bring Van Rooyen in and maybe Laurie as well? Spargo had 4 touches only 1 of them in our F50. Bedford (was bodied out of contests too easy) out played him had 1 more touch and kicked a goal with the Same amount of touches.

Possible changes?

Oliver & Spargo out.

Van Rooyen & Laurie in? (Harmes/Sparrow to make up Olivers midfield time?)

Also surely rivers breathing down here throat of Bowey?

 

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Doug Reemer

[DurriePirate 97]

Bring in Dunstan for clarry this week easy choice, alternately bring back Rivers and move Brayshaw back to the midfield. 

Is there more merit in making the big changes for the round 19 after the trip to Alice, save the debut of Laurie & JVR for the following week back in the normal temperatures to give them the best chance of succeeding.

 

Love to hear your thoughts? 

[Doug Reemer 1,197]

29 minutes ago, DurriePirate said:

move Brayshaw back to the midfield. 

Won’t happen.

[layzie 33,991]

Can't see it

[Demonland 73,140]

 

[Clintosaurus 7,861]

Geez Andy's MFCSS got a bit fired up!!! Lucky @binman wasn't in the same room or he may have copped one.

[Demonland 73,140]

3 minutes ago, Clintosaurus said:

Geez Andy's MFCSS got a bit fired up!!! Lucky @binman wasn't in the same room or he may have copped one.

If we lose this week the gloves will be right off. 

[layzie 33,991]

Andy was not happy and I totally get it, it's not like we're at the start of the season we're entering full on business time. I do think Binman supported his views though really well with how we approached these games last year. 

Don't want to speak for Binman here but I feel that we think it's better to come up with a somewhat plausible reason as to why Goody wouldn't change things as opposed to just calling the coach a nitwit! 

[DemonWA 3,936]

Good listen gents

My thinking is much more aligned with Andy, but impressed that Binman is able to be so steadfast in his commitment to the faith in the issues being attributed to the loading curse! 

[von 1,572]

51 minutes ago, layzie said:

Andy was not happy and I totally get it, it's not like we're at the start of the season we're entering full on business time. I do think Binman supported his views though really well with how we approached these games last year. 

Don't want to speak for Binman here but I feel that we think it's better to come up with a somewhat plausible reason as to why Goody wouldn't change things as opposed to just calling the coach a nitwit! 

Given he won us a flag last year doesn’t he get the benefit of the doubt at least till the season is done. 

[Engorged Onion 10,223]

#isgoodwintherightguy?

[layzie 33,991]

25 minutes ago, von said:

Given he won us a flag last year doesn’t he get the benefit of the doubt at least till the season is done. 

I just want to clarify I'm not saying that Andy called the coach a nitwit! 🙂

Edited July 12, 2022 by layzie

[Demonland 73,140]

1 hour ago, layzie said:

Andy was not happy and I totally get it, it's not like we're at the start of the season we're entering full on business time. I do think Binman supported his views though really well with how we approached these games last year. 

Don't want to speak for Binman here but I feel that we think it's better to come up with a somewhat plausible reason as to why Goody wouldn't change things as opposed to just calling the coach a nitwit! 

 

22 minutes ago, layzie said:

I just want to clarify I'm not saying that Andy called the coach a nitwit! 🙂

I want to clarify that I did not call or think the coach and coaching staff are nitwits. I don't even believe that was implied.

My frustration comes from us not changing anything in this match. Clearly teams have to some extent worked out ways to nullify our strategies and we can't simply rely on the Melbourne Way to just work in the end. I don't believe that our coaching staff can't react and change. I believe that we have some very creative and good football minds. We won a flag afterall. I just hope they're not being stubborn in thinking that if we just keep playing the Melbourne Way eventually it will work. We need to adapt because the competition has adapted to us.

I bristled a bit at the notion of us not showing all our cards in this match and that the Cats have showed us their finals footy hand. If this is true and we're going to go through our remaining games not showing our hands then we better be prepared to win the lot from 7th or 8th and watch the first and 3rd week of finals on TV.

[DemonWA 3,936]

31 minutes ago, Demonland said:

I bristled a bit at the notion of us not showing all our cards in this match and that the Cats have showed us their finals footy hand. If this is true and we're going to go through our remaining games not showing our hands then we better be prepared to win the lot from 7th or 8th and watch the first and 3rd week of finals on TV.

This is it for me too. At the moment the people with steadfast belief that season '21 and '22 are panning out in the same way are creating a narrative that explains our losses in the context of last year - pick between Loading and not showing our hand until finals etc. As you stated on the podcast, a key difference between our seasons is our W/L record against top 8 and top 4 sides. That's such a key stat that I think the majority of the other parallels are potentially coincidental. 

Our draw is much tougher this year. The fear is that unless we show up at our best in the remaining matches we run a huge risk of trying to defend the flag form outside the 4. You'd think a top 4 finish has to be the short term priority. 

Our performance against the Lions gives me hope that we're not far away from capturing some good form again consistently. Hoping that we start the run into finals sooner rather than later, because in addition to getting the sports science piece right last year, I think the players were riding high on confidence. I'd like to see a few wins against contenders in the run home to ensure the players have the same level of belief again too. 

[1964_2 2,357]

14 minutes ago, DemonWA said:

This is it for me too. At the moment the people with steadfast belief that season '21 and '22 are panning out in the same way are creating a narrative that explains our losses in the context of last year - pick between Loading and not showing our hand until finals etc. As you stated on the podcast, a key difference between our seasons is our W/L record against top 8 and top 4 sides. That's such a key stat that I think the majority of the other parallels are potentially coincidental. 

Our draw is much tougher this year. The fear is that unless we show up at our best in the remaining matches we run a huge risk of trying to defend the flag form outside the 4. You'd think a top 4 finish has to be the short term priority. 

Our performance against the Lions gives me hope that we're not far away from capturing some good form again consistently. Hoping that we start the run into finals sooner rather than later, because in addition to getting the sports science piece right last year, I think the players were riding high on confidence. I'd like to see a few wins against contenders in the run home to ensure the players have the same level of belief again too. 

This coaching group has runs on the board. What makes you think you know more than them? 

It’s not speculation, but actual fact that we didn’t show our cards R19 last year when we lost to the dogs by 20 points. Who knows, maybe if we did we wouldn’t have beaten them in the granny. 

The cats this year are a similar threat to what the dogs were this time last year :- So sure, I get it’s a new year and things change, but this is a very relevant comparison. 
 

[Demonland 73,140]

14 minutes ago, DemonWA said:

Our performance against the Lions gives me hope that we're not far away from capturing some good form again consistently. Hoping that we start the run into finals sooner rather than later, because in addition to getting the sports science piece right last year, I think the players were riding high on confidence. I'd like to see a few wins against contenders in the run home to ensure the players have the same level of belief again too. 

This was another thing that got me fired up.

With all due respect to my learned cohost Binman, who I have the utmost respect for and defer to in the tactical side of our onfield game, if I am to accept his narrative, a he may very well be correct, then the Lions threw (perhaps too strong a term) the match against us because they too were in their loading phase and knew they couldn't beat us so they laid down their swords. If that is the case then we in fact still have not beaten anyone of note because you can't consider that a true reflection of where we are at if the other team wasn't showing their finals hand.

[Demonland 73,140]

4 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

This coaching group has runs on the board. What makes you think you know more than them? 

It’s not speculation, but actual fact that we didn’t show our cards R19 last year when we lost to the dogs by 20 points. Who knows, maybe if we did we wouldn’t have beaten them in the granny. 

The cats this year are a similar threat to what the dogs were this time last year :- So sure, I get it’s a new year and things change, but this is a very relevant comparison.

I hope you are right but that was one match. Are we not going to show our hand in the run home now because we could be playing any one of those teams (Carlton, Collingwood, Fremantle and Brisbane) in the finals?

Did we not show our hand to Geelong in the first half of Round 23, 2021 and then decided to flick the switch and show our hand in the second half?

I have faith in our coaches, they certainly have the runs on the board and I will forever be grateful to them but I am a little bit worried about not only our losses this season but who we lost to.

[1964_2 2,357]

3 minutes ago, Demonland said:

I hope you are right but that was one match. Are we not going to show our hand in the run home now because we could be playing any one of those teams (Carlton, Collingwood, Fremantle and Brisbane) in the finals?

Did we not show our hand to Geelong in the first half of Round 23, 2021 and then decided to flick the switch and show our hand in the second half?

I have faith in our coaches, they certainly have the runs on the board and I will forever be grateful to them but I am a little bit worried about not only our losses this season but who we lost to.

Many players and coaches said last year, that they strongly value winning form heading into finals. 

So not showing our cards in a R17 game, only makes sense, if we have confidence that we will be running on top of the ground around R20 and finish the year strongly. 

 

[demoncat 1,514]

37 minutes ago, DemonWA said:

This is it for me too. At the moment the people with steadfast belief that season '21 and '22 are panning out in the same way are creating a narrative that explains our losses in the context of last year - pick between Loading and not showing our hand until finals etc. As you stated on the podcast, a key difference between our seasons is our W/L record against top 8 and top 4 sides. That's such a key stat that I think the majority of the other parallels are potentially coincidental. 

Our draw is much tougher this year. The fear is that unless we show up at our best in the remaining matches we run a huge risk of trying to defend the flag form outside the 4. You'd think a top 4 finish has to be the short term priority. 

Our performance against the Lions gives me hope that we're not far away from capturing some good form again consistently. Hoping that we start the run into finals sooner rather than later, because in addition to getting the sports science piece right last year, I think the players were riding high on confidence. I'd like to see a few wins against contenders in the run home to ensure the players have the same level of belief again too. 

I understand your point @DemonWA, but I think you can still explain the W/L record against top 8 sides while applying the theory than @binman and others have argued for.

First, it is a fact that we have versed more top 8 sides during this period than we did during this time last year. It may well be the case that had we versed Fremantle, Sydney, Collingwood or Geelong earlier in the year that we would have beaten them. Obviously this is hypothetical, but I don't think it is a factor that can be dismissed if you believe that we are/have been loading through the middle part of the season.

Second, one key difference between this year and last year that can explain why we have lost to more top 8 sides is injuries. And not just injuries in general, but injuries to key position players within games. This was a significant factor in both the Fremantle and Collingwood games. It is very difficult for any team to adjust to injuries in game, particularly if they all come from one part of the ground - as was the case with our defence in those games. I think that had injuries not been a factor, we would have been in good stead to win both the Sydney and Collingwood games - despite our obvious flaws re: pressure and inside 50 entries. And then all of a sudden you're looking at a 4-2 record rather than 2-4.

As a fan, I 100% agree and would love to see us claim some scalps on the run home. And, given our draw, we'll have to to guarantee a top four position. But there are specific reasons that can be pointed to that explain why we have performed worse against the top sides than we did last year.

[Webber 10,538]

Great pod again guys, love the very human dichotomy of Andy’s tendency to throw a negative veil over current form against binman’s tossing that veil to the gutter and just letting it run to the stormwater drain (whence there are a decent pile of veils now collecting). Thanks for the shout-out on the Max and Jack painting, which needless to say also has me greatly disturbed. @binman’s quite justifiable concern that he’s ignited a ‘curse’ over our form - by hanging said print - of course implicates me in the curse! What to do?! Firstly, @Demonland, burning yours is NOT the answer, and don’t think I haven’t contemplated the same action. The footy gods would not look kindly on such behaviour, dare I say it would likely institute a fresher, more malign curse. 
As such, I have committed new paint to canvas. Importantly, the attached photo was taken whilst the paint was still wet, making it ‘live’ into perpetuity. I trust that this (and a win in Alice Springs) will settle the matter. 

[binman 43,762]

18 minutes ago, Demonland said:

I hope you are right but that was one match. Are we not going to show our hand in the run home now because we could be playing any one of those teams (Carlton, Collingwood, Fremantle and Brisbane) in the finals?

Did we not show our hand to Geelong in the first half of Round 23, 2021 and then decided to flick the switch and show our hand in the second half?

I have faith in our coaches, they certainly have the runs on the board and I will forever be grateful to them but I am a little bit worried about not only our losses this season but who we lost to.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the curse has left us fatigued atm.

In that scenario, we can't implement our optimal method and related sytems.

In this context, any tactical changes we might have tried against the cats may not be applicable to games later in the season, when hopefully we will implement our optimal method

So, perhaps goody believes the benefit of constant repetition of role execution and our method outweighs the benefit, and risks, of making big tactical changes (eg throwing petty forward or not kicking to an outmanned Max all game) in a game we are labouring with the curse.

[layzie 33,991]

1 hour ago, Demonland said:

 

I want to clarify that I did not call or think the coach and coaching staff are nitwits. I don't even believe that was implied.

My frustration comes from us not changing anything in this match. Clearly teams have to some extent worked out ways to nullify our strategies and we can't simply rely on the Melbourne Way to just work in the end. I don't believe that our coaching staff can't react and change. I believe that we have some very creative and good football minds. We won a flag afterall. I just hope they're not being stubborn in thinking that if we just keep playing the Melbourne Way eventually it will work. We need to adapt because the competition has adapted to us.

I bristled a bit at the notion of us not showing all our cards in this match and that the Cats have showed us their finals footy hand. If this is true and we're going to go through our remaining games not showing our hands then we better be prepared to win the lot from 7th or 8th and watch the first and 3rd week of finals on TV.

Definitely not implied by you Andy however there are certainly some out there who would still rather call the coach a nitwit, despite everything he's done for us.

It's hard to explain the coaching decisions or non decisions, especially when there's big results up for grabs. 

Edited July 12, 2022 by layzie