PLAY SOME KIDS

[Guest dee'viator]

We must play some young'uns to get more run & pace. The turnover merchants are selling our game points to the opposition.

[kramer 0]

We must play some young'uns to get more run & pace. The turnover merchants are selling our game points to the opposition.

i m with you if you leave the kids at sandy for too long thats where they set there standard. no more b###s##t about doing apprentiships. if their good enough pick them.

[brentnall 0]

get them out their at the moment what have we got to lose.

and the kids will be better for it

[St. Jon 0]

I want to see Newton and Buckley getting a game.

They type of player Juice is i could imagine him coming out on debut, kicking 5 and taking mark of the year. In the same breath i could also see him having an absolute dog day on debut but hey, it's worth a go i reckon.

[Freak 100]

There has been ridiculous talk that clubs are tanking for Chris Judd. Of course they are only kidding around but am i the only one that would not want to give away a top 3 pick(in the worst case scenario) for Chris Judd? I mean he is a great player, but he isnt even the clear-cut best player in the competition. Many people would put Daniel Kerr and Jono Brown as more influential players. Plus, we would get 4 seasons more service out of a youngster because they are 4 years younger than judd. plus, I dont think we are in our premiership window so I edont see why we would throw away kids for judd.

p.s. this is all worse case scenario..i know its only round 4!

[classy dees 42]

may have no choice given the length of the casualty ward waiting list.

you'd think we'd have a debutant in the next two weeks, be it pettard or buckley

[kramer 0]

may have no choice given the length of the casualty ward waiting list.

you'd think we'd have a debutant in the next two weeks, be it pettard or buckley

your too concervative 4 my liking . why not garland newton @ dunn on the foward line this week?

[Demonster 37]

A lot of good people forget that the hardest thing about playing footy is actually gettin' the ball, and unfortnately the youngsters just don't do it as well as the older folk - see CJ & Matty Bate once the side is struggling.

For all his disposal faults, and they are nowhere near as bad as some people on this site make out, the likes of Ward is still a better option - and he is also one of the players in the current side with pace.

We do have a need for speed, but a youngster has to be ready - otherwise it's worthless - if they're any good their time will come. Also, an AFL selection has got to be warranted by the individual through sheer talent, or it has to be hard earned. 3 in the bests at Sandy in a row and you should be knocking on the door - any youngster done that? If they are not in the best at Sandy, it is laughable to think they can cut it with that form in the big time.

The first bloke I would have back in the side is Bizzell, a proven performer and an obvious opponent for Pavlova in my view. It was only the previous pre-season where we were looking at him as a wingman!

[Jaded No More 68,867]

We all know I'm the driver of the "play the kids" bandwagon, and this is how I see it:

Inexperienced players will always be just that, inexperienced, until such time that they are given a significant run in the AFL.

Some people are saying that we are risking damaging these young players by throwing them to the wolves too early. But speak to any kid coming through the ranks and they'll tell you that nothing can prepare you for AFL football. Whether you've been at a club for a day, a month or a year, you are never truely ready for what awaits you.

Yes, young players can be damaged by having too much pressure put on them when they are not ready. Mentally it can shatter their confidence if unsuccessful (or elevate their confidence to unhealthy levels if successful), and physically it can damage their bodies if they are over-worked. I am certainly not in favour of either of those two things happening to any of our players, which is why I am advocating that we play players who have been in the system for a couple of years at least.

Their form at VFL level may not be great, and their impact on game day may be insignificant, but it's not as if we are asking them to win us games of football, far from it. Furthermore, nobody is suggesting that these players replace senior players with a proven track record.

But you tell me, what is the point of playing guys like Godfrey, Brown, Ferguson etc..., who while they try their absolute hardest, are just not good enough at this level? Not only are they going to do nothing for our long term success, they are not winning us games in the short term either.

What good will come of protecting these kids for another month, or another year? At some point we're going to have to bite the bullet and throw them into the deep end. They may very well sink along with the rest of the side, or they might just keep their head above water long enough to give us a glimpse into their capabilities.

One thing is certain, it serves no purpose keeping these kids back, when the alternative is to play players who are not going to be at the club next year or the following year. Because in two years from now, when Brown has hung up his boots and Godfrey is running around in some country league, we don't want their replacements to have had zero games experience and absolutely no idea of what it takes to be an AFL footballer.

Well anyways, that's my two cents worth.

I know a lot of people see it as a sign of resignation, but to me there is never a bad time to breed new talent, especially when you are 0-3, have an injury list the size of Sandilands, and your depth players are proving to be unsuccessful.

[beelzebub 23,313]

I'll see your 3c and add 20!!

exactly.. no such thing as "ready"

agree wholeheartedly Jaded..

and anyways.... reality is writing the script and timetable...we may not have much choice ( well others may not have hte choice ) much longer.

[brentnall 0]

l agree with you if your out of form go back to sandy and bring same one else in

l want to watch the best team on the ground not our big names with no form

[occo 2]

Well i recon were going to come bottom 4 this year. I predict 15th and the only way melb will get me to a game is if i see young kids. Brad Sewell is an example. A rookie and now doing very well this year. Im sick of typing about 'the cleanout' which i believe in but lets get some excitement out there. Otherwise theres no point me being a supporter this year - and thats not because im not a good supporter, but at some point i lose faith. Melb have a chance for me to be a supporter this year by playing young kids - take it or leave it.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

There has been ridiculous talk that clubs are tanking for Chris Judd. Of course they are only kidding around but am i the only one that would not want to give away a top 3 pick(in the worst case scenario) for Chris Judd? I mean he is a great player, but he isnt even the clear-cut best player in the competition. Many people would put Daniel Kerr and Jono Brown as more influential players. Plus, we would get 4 seasons more service out of a youngster because they are 4 years younger than judd. plus, I dont think we are in our premiership window so I edont see why we would throw away kids for judd.

Yeah. I've been thinking like this for a while. We may be in the wrong thread, but anyway...

pros.... It's Judd, he'd get us further up the ladder... He's probably only just about to start playing the footy he'll be remembered for.... Sponsorship + Membership $.... List would look more attractive to a potential coach... The younger players would see how it's done in regard to training and workrate, unlike the current bunch of leaders who seem ok with mediocrity....

cons.... We get only 150-200 games out of him, not the complete career you get from a Jones/McLean.... We Pay 1mil or whatever, making it hard to get the other players around him that we would need for a flag.... If hurt, even temporarily, all our eggs are in one basket.... From what we can see we are 5 years away from making a tilt at the flag, by which time Judd will be in his late 20s, would it be better to have a player who is only just 23....

As far as price goes, WC will get better than a first pick for him. In normal cases a gun player having established himself and played 7 years already with a club is not worth a first round pick, since you only get half the service before he gets too old, as compared to a round 1 pick that has a whole career ahead of him. Judd is a star, and so WC can just go with the highest bidder, and if it's a number 1 pick and a good player, or the first 2 picks... then so be it. In reality, I reckon no player is good enough at 150 games to be worth a number 1 pick, except maybe Judd.

The other point to raise is that MFC seem to have a habit of stuffing up their high picks, and turning good talented players with huge futures into mediocre ones. So we get the next big ruck prospect... so what? He could be a dud... He will then be persisted with regardless and carve out an average career...

There's pros and cons to both sides, and I reckon it's all a matter of price at the time. Personally I reckon a number 1 pick is acceptable for us, but if we have to trade a Frawley or something, then what's the point? I fear if we go for him we may be hung out to dry. We have precious few tradable resources at this stage, if we get rid of them what do we have? Another 1 man team for a few years....

[Demonster 37]

I'm intrigued - just who are these 'young kids' that are being held back? Garland was OK for Sandy against Geelong, and did Petterd play?, because I didn't see him - ditto Buckley, although I liked the look of him in NAB cup, but still a little way off in my view.

No one I've seen is ready to go - remember that Dunn and Bate spent a year at Sandy playing with men, and Bartram played a very good pre-season.

I agree, if a young bloke is playing better than an old bloke, he should be in - no question. But if Yze goes back to Sandy and gets 32 touches and has a major impact, playing alongside a 'kid' who hardly gets a sniff, it has to be Yze that comes back every time.

[w00dy 146]

we shouldn't just write the season off now and start playing some kids... we were 0-3 last season, but then turned our season around... i know it doesn't look likely, but we can do it again, but if we just bring in a bunch of kids who aren't ready, then we're not giving ourselves a chance of salvaging our season...

we've got freo next week who've had a start almost as bad as ours... we're playing them at the G and still a good chance to win this one... we get one under our belt and get some confidence and we could be away... if we're half way through the season and we're 2-9 then we can play the kids, but in round 3? we still need to give ourselves the best chance of winning...

[rissy 0]

I want to see Newton and Buckley getting a game.

They type of player Juice is i could imagine him coming out on debut, kicking 5 and taking mark of the year. In the same breath i could also see him having an absolute dog day on debut but hey, it's worth a go i reckon.

St jon another silly post!

Stop pumping up your mates, you've never played a good game!

Newton is still not reay, we need to play guys that want to win it for the melbourne footy club, old or young!!!

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

I'm intrigued - just who are these 'young kids' that are being held back?

Newton is still not reay, we need to play guys that want to win it for the melbourne footy club, old or young!!!

Speak for yourself. Newton is in his third year in the system. he had a sensational pre-season, a bad game 2 weeks ago and an ok game last week when he was being played on a wing...

Clearly they're trying to get him to become more flexible. If he played in the forward line and off the bench for the Dees I'm confident some good things would happen... He's certainly as much chance as Cox, Dick and Toovey (apparently the Chinese word for penis according to Peter Helliar).

One thing's for sure, he'll do as good, or a better job up forward than a myriad of forwards we've got soaking up space on the list at the moment. Bugger flexibility, Newton's a leading target who does all the other stuff too... If we play all our old hacks we lose. If we play the kids, we probably still lose, but we get something out of it... It really is that simple.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Speak for yourself. Newton is in his third year in the system. he had a sensational pre-season, a bad game 2 weeks ago and an ok game last week when he was being played on a wing...

Clearly they're trying to get him to become more flexible. If he played in the forward line and off the bench for the Dees I'm confident some good things would happen... He's certainly as much chance as Cox, Dick and Toovey (apparently the Chinese word for penis according to Peter Helliar).

One thing's for sure, he'll do as good, or a better job up forward than a myriad of forwards we've got soaking up space on the list at the moment. Bugger flexibility, Newton's a leading target who does all the other stuff too... If we play all our old hacks we lose. If we play the kids, we probably still lose, but we get something out of it... It really is that simple.

Newton was a low age recruit who in the normal course of events would normally be taken 12 months later but potentially earlier in the draft.

He was awful pre -season. he played an intra club match which was low key and he floundered badly. He dissolved as a player under very little pressure. its wasc disappointing for spectators and embarrassing for Newton. he was overlooked for any further pre season involvement as he was so far off the standard. He just did not give a yelp. He has only started playing at Sandy 1s this year and has yet to star.

With Saunter at Sandy, he is not going to play FF. However, by playing him on the wing he is getting into more of the play and a chance to deliver his skill at this level consistently. But he is still a development

He is very talented but also extremely inconsistent in the delivery of it and his maturity as a footballer is still very early.

Some of the calls on Newton to be played are bathed in naivety and ignorance by people who know diddly squat about player development.

He is the very sort of player that would be crushed under the pressure of AFL and lose the little confidence he may have regained since that horrible intra club performance.

And say they would be as good as the sub standard expereienced performers is short term blindness to the detriment of their long term development.

Over the course of the year, Pettard and Buckley will play and I look forward to them performing better than incumbents. However Newton may take a little longer to be there.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Newton was a low age recruit who in the normal course of events would normally be taken 12 months later but potentially earlier in the draft.

He was awful pre -season.

With Saunter at Sandy, he is not going to play FF.

However, by playing him on the wing he is getting into more of the play and a chance to deliver

Some of the calls on Newton to be played are bathed in naivety and ignorance by people who know diddly squat about player development.

He is the very sort of player that would be crushed under the pressure of AFL and lose the little confidence he may have regained since that horrible intra club performance.

- Yes. We all know this. But even if you don't count his first year he's still in his second.

- He wasn't AWFUL in the pre-season. He played one senior match, then sent to Sandy seniors and was better than good. Yes it was VFL, and yes it was VFL pre-season, no-one's trying to say he's earned a callup in a full strength demons side, but times are tough RR. What demons there are playing are playing worse than the VFL team they are affiliated with.

- Correct. He should/could play CHF. In fact, when he's gone there he's picked up marks, kicks, hard-ball gets... the lot.

- Incorrect. By playing on the wing they're trying to get him to become more flexible as a player, so that when he does get promoted, he won't have to fight with the same 3 blokes to get a run. By playing him on the wing they have robbed him of his strengths. It hasn't worked. When he comes into his own, maybe he'll play there. But for now, there's nothing wrong with being a promising CHF, it was enough to get Miller a game at the same age, and yes, I'm aware of his physical attributes.

- Some of the calls about Newton's promotion ARE bathed in naievity and ignorance. But not this one. This one is bathed in desperation and frustration. Too many of the players getting a game have little or no future, and have NO potential as KP forwards. Newton could come in and do little, or he could pull a Tomahawk and kick a few. Yes it's a risk, but WHENEVER he gets a game, this year or 2 years from now, the same will be true. At some point he'll go from being too young to play, to being "held back" too long. It's a question of timing, and while playing a guy too soon in his development can be a mistake, my feeling is he's no longer in this classifictaion.

- That last sentence will be true on his debut, whether it be now or years from now. I say give him a sniff. The team is not going to get anywhere in 2007 and beyond with SOME of the players being selected. And I'm NOT saying play the guy for 120 minutes out of the square. He can be played with little responsibility to get a feel for the pace...

[Redleg 40,842]

Some of the calls on Newton to be played are bathed in naivety and ignorance by people who know diddly squat about player development.

He is the very sort of player that would be crushed under the pressure of AFL and lose the little confidence he may have regained since that horrible intra club performance.

Well as one of those people who presumably knows "diddly squat" about player development, let me throw in a few discussion points.

1. The MFC for a long time has refused to play young players, with a notable exception being Bartram.

2. The likes of Dunn, Bate, Jones, Mclean, Sylvia, Bell, Johnson, Miller, Jamar of the recent batch all had to play a fair bit in the twos before selection. Can we say that the extended period in the twos has helped their careers?

3. Other teams play their recruits as soon as possible and we need look no further than Cox, Dick and Toovey for the Pies. All three are not hulks but the latter two kicked 5 goals and helped their side with pace and enthusiasm win a game.

4. If our players are always needing time are we recruiting the wrong types of players?

5. Is it the Coach protecting the boys from playing alongside older players who play an ordinary style of game?

6. Is the side not glaringly missing pace.

7. Who has more pace, the younger players or the older ones?

8. What is better for the future of the team, playing a Newton ( who may fail initially ) but who has pace, agility, a good pair of hands and can kick a goal and dispose of the ball or playing Holland?

9. Are we better to have the year from hell and finish last and have the one chance we might get to rebuild quickly with the best junior in the country ( who can be brought into the side after 100 games with Sandy ) and also a couple of pre season picks who might include a top uncontracted player and maybe even trade for a CJ if he was interested in us. This group could lift our chances enormously.

10. Are we so concerned with a young player failing that we won't take the chance to see if one succeeds? A lucky goal to a young kid early in a game can make a career.

11. Why do we treat our younger players so differently to the other clubs? Tom Hawkins would still be in the Sandy side if he was on our list.

These are a few points some might like to discuss.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

One more...

Last year we played a slightly disproportionate amount of youth compared to other years. Bate, Bartram, Jones, Dunn and Warnock had their debuts and there were other players that weren't part of the 22 who developed beautifully by getting games despite poor early form (Bell chief among them). The point is that when given responsibility these young guys were actually an integral part of why we romped into the finals last year. Now there are always going to be exceptions to the rule, like Bate and CJ who are struggling, but for the most part last year proved that you CAN have succes while blooding large numbers of guys in their first seasons. Yes Newton is a KPP, and yes he's bottom age, but surely there's been enough evidence to show the younger guys were pulling their weight last year? And if that's the case, it MUST be worth considering them now...

[Adzman 2,154]

I am 100% behind giving simon buckley a run. we cannot go overboard with youth, but now is the time to blood some kids with soooo many players out.

Buckley or pettard to have a run at some stage over the next fortnight

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Redleg, You will note that I said some posters not all. I dont regard you as knowing diddly squat as I know you actually get to the Sandy games and see the players. Many of the poster dont and make unsubstantiated comments on the form or otherwise of MFC Sandy based players.

In regard to your responses, I say:

1. I dont necessarily agree due to some of reasons below:

2. McLean, Bell, Sylvia have had considererable and extended OP and other injury problems which has staggered their development and ability to physically cope with AFL football. They have had to be nursed through the recovery process includeing some time at Sandy. FWIW, I think Bell has been given every opportunity to succeed and I am glad he is the one bright spot in this year. For 2 years of Jamar's career we had Jolly and we played 2 ruckman. Jamar actually overtook Jolly in 2004. He was green as leaf then. He has not change much. PJ cant mark and cant ruck so where do you play him with a fit side? Miller has had significant opportunity since he debuted in 2002. He just has not improved.

From what you have seen what more do you expect from Miller, Jamar and PJ.

3. Other teams play their recruits as soon as possible and we need look no further than Cox, Dick and Toovey for the Pies. All three are not hulks but the latter two kicked 5 goals and helped their side with pace and enthusiasm win a game. By the way I dont think the matter is vindicated by one game. It assessed over a period of time as you alluded in point 2.

With due respect to Collingwood they still had a nucleus of a capable side out there playing one who did not. Given their depth players are worse than ours what choice did they have? Also Collingwood believe themselves to be in a re building stage of their list given they had swapped Tarrant and were prepared to take the risk to play the younger players.

4. Had we known the injury problems McLean, Sylvia and Bell have had would we have recruited them? Or if McLean, Sylvia and Bell are fit from day 1 I dont think we would be asking that question?

5. No

6. We are missing the ability to win the ball and move the ball quickly and efficiently with skill. We have Davey, Bell, Jones and Bate with pace. What use is pace when you dont have the ball

7. See point 6

8. Ideally a side should be chosen with the primary reason to win the game. Prior to the match I thought Holland was a better selection. At pinch has shown the ability to play forward and back. I dont think Newton is up to it at this point. So if I did not pick Holland I would not have necessarily played Newton there.

9. The benefits of tanking have been reduced and I have a real problem with many aspects of a Club tanking from Round 3 on. At the moment we dont know Judd is going to PSD and is dangerous to think he is. Also we dont know if the No 1 pick is a Bryce Gibbs or a Des Headland or Michael Gardiner. I dont see the point of ND tanking because he wont be around next year. Its a good question to ask Terry Wallace though.

10. No

11. Do we have a Tom Hawkins or Bryce Gibbs on our list? Tom Hawkins is a No1 draft pick who dominated U17s and has done well in pre season. He was ready to play his role. I do note that Geelong took him off early in the third quarter. Now why was that?.

[Guest dee'viator]

We all know I'm the driver of the "play the kids" bandwagon, and this is how I see it:

Inexperienced players will always be just that, inexperienced, until such time that they are given a significant run in the AFL.

Some people are saying that we are risking damaging these young players by throwing them to the wolves too early. But speak to any kid coming through the ranks and they'll tell you that nothing can prepare you for AFL football. Whether you've been at a club for a day, a month or a year, you are never truely ready for what awaits you.

Yes, young players can be damaged by having too much pressure put on them when they are not ready. Mentally it can shatter their confidence if unsuccessful (or elevate their confidence to unhealthy levels if successful), and physically it can damage their bodies if they are over-worked. I am certainly not in favour of either of those two things happening to any of our players, which is why I am advocating that we play players who have been in the system for a couple of years at least.

Their form at VFL level may not be great, and their impact on game day may be insignificant, but it's not as if we are asking them to win us games of football, far from it. Furthermore, nobody is suggesting that these players replace senior players with a proven track record.

But you tell me, what is the point of playing guys like Godfrey, Brown, Ferguson etc..., who while they try their absolute hardest, are just not good enough at this level? Not only are they going to do nothing for our long term success, they are not winning us games in the short term either.

What good will come of protecting these kids for another month, or another year? At some point we're going to have to bite the bullet and throw them into the deep end. They may very well sink along with the rest of the side, or they might just keep their head above water long enough to give us a glimpse into their capabilities.

One thing is certain, it serves no purpose keeping these kids back, when the alternative is to play players who are not going to be at the club next year or the following year. Because in two years from now, when Brown has hung up his boots and Godfrey is running around in some country league, we don't want their replacements to have had zero games experience and absolutely no idea of what it takes to be an AFL footballer.

Well anyways, that's my two cents worth.

I know a lot of people see it as a sign of resignation, but to me there is never a bad time to breed new talent, especially when you are 0-3, have an injury list the size of Sandilands, and your depth players are proving to be unsuccessful.

Are you driving a wagon or a bus? If its a bus I'll have a seat, all aboard!!!

[Guest dee'viator]

Newton was a low age recruit who in the normal course of events would normally be taken 12 months later but potentially earlier in the draft.

He was awful pre -season. he played an intra club match which was low key and he floundered badly. He dissolved as a player under very little pressure. its wasc disappointing for spectators and embarrassing for Newton. he was overlooked for any further pre season involvement as he was so far off the standard. He just did not give a yelp. He has only started playing at Sandy 1s this year and has yet to star.

With Saunter at Sandy, he is not going to play FF. However, by playing him on the wing he is getting into more of the play and a chance to deliver his skill at this level consistently. But he is still a development

He is very talented but also extremely inconsistent in the delivery of it and his maturity as a footballer is still very early.

Some of the calls on Newton to be played are bathed in naivety and ignorance by people who know diddly squat about player development.

He is the very sort of player that would be crushed under the pressure of AFL and lose the little confidence he may have regained since that horrible intra club performance.

And say they would be as good as the sub standard expereienced performers is short term blindness to the detriment of their long term development.

Over the course of the year, Pettard and Buckley will play and I look forward to them performing better than incumbents. However Newton may take a little longer to be there.

Good post RR...